155gn bullets in Rem 700

[Tiger650]

Hello gents, please excuse length of this post but I courd really use some help.
Set up a rifle for the young bloke, a Rem 700 VSSF in .308, this purchased new by my twin brother back around 1990 and saw maybe 300 rds, well run in etc as he was once an A grade fullbore shooter.
Rifle was then sold to a mate of mine who owned ti for many years and shot maybe 50 rds through it, I bought it from him about 6 months back and received 270 rds of my 1987 handloads also, they were 168gn Sierras in Win cases with Fed 210M primers and 40gn AR2206, that worked very well for me back then in a carbon steel Remington Varmint synthetic, went to Lapua cases so the Win case rds were passed on to my bro and went unused until recently.
The young bloke is still on the learning curve but achieved sub 20mm / 5 rd groups with the old ammo.
I reloaded empties with AR2208 to max recommended ADI load and these also shot well, the kid's [29 yo serving ADF but a kid to me LOL] shot a couple of 15mm groups with 168 Sierras.
I have not shot off the bench for 15 yrs and have not shot the new rifle, it is Ken's and I would either make a goose of myself or perhaps dishearten him if I shot it well, when I ceased shooting my old black rifle I was commonly achieving 10mm groups at 100 yds and 15mm groups at 200 yds.

Excuse all the background, I will cut to the chase, rifle has 26" factory barrel.

I bought a box of Berger 155.5 gn bullets and loaded some up in new Lapua cases with AR2208 to 2.815"' COAL [ measures with vernier without bullet comparator]

5 rds of each

45gn average MV 2755 FPS with 43 FPS max variation [using a Chrony Alpha]

46gn average MV 3823 with 22 FPS note that the Chrony went to sleep so only three of 5 rds measured.

46.5gn average MV 2872 FPS with 29 FPS max variation

47gn average MV 2912 FPS with 46 FPS variation note that this was over 10 rds as opposed to 5 rds for lighter loads.

Cases and primers looked good for all groups, the 47gn were obviously getting up there as far as pressures go but no signs of excessive pressure.

Problem is that accuracy was very poor, I should have measured groups but was pissed off, by my eye the best would have been between 1"and 1.5"

My old carbon steel rifle did not seem to like light bullets either, back then I briefly tried 150 gn Sierra Matchkings and 155gn Sierra Palma with poor results, went back to 168 gn Sierras and the thing was back to being accurate.

After the above session I removed the action from the stock to have the stock milled out for a Lumley DBM, noticed evidence of barrel / stock contact about 4" forward of the chamber and also a hint of contact from barrel flutes for about 3 inches back from the tip of the stock forend, relieved these areas to around .014" clearance.

I noted also that the recoil lug appeared to be showing uneven contact with the bedding block so bedded that with epoxy, when that was done I saw maybe .001" uneven contact [gap] at the front receiver ring immediately behind the recoil lug, I skim bedded that area and also the rear tang section.

Torquing stock screws was noticeably different after bedding, previously the front screw particularly would begin to tighten and then require significant rotation to trip the torque wrench at 65in/lbs, now the screw bottoms and she goes click in perhaps half a turn.

Full of expectations we went to Little River on Saturday with 40 rds of proven 168gn load and 5 rds of the 155,5gn Berger 47gn AR2208 leftovers from our last session, young Ken shot very well [for his level of experience] with the 168s one group of 13mm and most others not much larger.

The 155.5 gn Berger loads showed no improvement, Ken was really pleased but the old man not so, my experiments with light bullets are not making progress

I would be most grateful for any sage advice, I have a box of 155gn Lapua Scenars and a bottle of AR2206H, my feeling is that lighter bullets may do better with faster powder but I fear that all the freebore in the factory Remington barrel may be an issue ?

Bullets leaving the case mouth before engaging rifling ?

With AICS mags and notched feed ramp we can seat to longer COAL but my rough measurements indicate that we would have buggerall bullet in the case to get anywhere near the lands, I do not want "delicate"ammunition.

Hopefully one of you blokes has been here before, there is always the option of having a Smith set the barrel back one thread pitch or so but with cost of the rifle, new scope/rail/mounts and top line reloading gear this Father / Son bonding exercise is rapidly approaching $6K without consumables.

Cheers Richard

[valkyrie]

May be that the bullets dont suit the twist rate. I have a 700 sf in 308 with 26" factory barrel and the twist is 1-12 which is fairly slow. Might be something to look into

[Sender]

Twist was my first though but apparently not.

According to Berger website their Hunting 155gr require only 1:14 twist.

They do 3 target bullets in 155gr which require 1:14, 1:13 and 1:12.

[Tiger650]

Thanks Gents
Minor update although no range testing as yet,
Spent a few hours "chasing the lands" with the 155.5 gn Berger, gave that up when out to 2.9375" COAL with approx .085" case to bullet engagement, very crude method involved jamming a bullet into the lands with a bullet boattail hand fitted / just engaged into the case, bullet remained in the lands when the case was extracted.
Then seated a bullet in case in the press and marked ogive area and case bullet interface with a felt tip pen, chamber and then move the bullet forward in kinetic bullet puller, measure and re-mark etc.
Gave it away when I got to .085"engagement so I have solid data as to how far from the lands I am, comparator ordered ex Hinterland has yet to arrive but that will only be an aid to making repeatable dimension rounds.
Fact is that the Bergers were at + .120" from the lands !
Loaded 30 test specimens of 47gn AR2208 / Lapua case/ Fed 210M primers today and will get them to the range next weekend, I will be surprised if they do not shoot better.
More case space obviously so may be able to spook velocity up some more depending on accuracy, happy news is that after polishing feed lips on AICS mag and removing COAL restriction plate from front of mag with modified Remington feed ramp these rounds feed well.
Drilling out the spot welds from a $135 magazine was hard for a tight arse like me.
Mind you, I loaded 50 rds of the old faithful 168gn Sierra load for the young bloke to shoot in the event that my Berger 155.5gn experiments go to s**t [again].
Must maintain his enthusiasm / confidence.

[SendIt]

Fact is that the Bergers were at + .120" from the lands !

I think a lot of people probably get the seating depth wrong with the Berger, they've got a pretty extreme ogive compared to most of the other things on the shelf.

Especially comparing their Hunting VLD to other hunting projectiles.

[Tiger650]

Results over 4 off 5rd /100yd groups today were disappointing to say the least, I have not measured yet but average would be 1.5" or maybe a little less.

To warm up I had the young bloke shoot a couple of groups with 168gn SMK load and they were down near 1/2" he is still shooting one of 5 out of a group, I remember that happening to me often.

I think the rifle is capable of 3/8"groups with the 168gn SMK and feel bad about conducting my reloading experiments on the young bloke, shooting is mentally demanding and having the old man tell you to shoot crappy loads cannot be good for confidence.

We will go back to training with the Sierras and maybe sometime in the future try the 155.5 Bergers with AR2206H, I remember changing from 2206 to Benchmark 2 with very poor results, maybe the opposite is possible when changing powders with the Bergers.

He has a very nice Omark coming ex his Uncle Wallaby, I reckon that will shoot lighter bullets just fine.

[Techc]

Something from the Berger site for you if you haven't found it already.

Getting The Best Precision And Accuracy From VLD Bullets In Your Rifle

Background
VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).

For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.

Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.

Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.

Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.

After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”

We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.

Solution
The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.

Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).

Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:

1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:

1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith
http://www.bergerbullets.com/getting-th ... our-rifle/

[Tiger650]

Thx Techc

That is most interesting, I will persevere and start by establishing a jammed dimension with the newly arrived comparator, hopefully I will find an accurate round with longer jump as I look to be running out of case neck.
Is the 155.5 / .30 cal classified by Berger as a VLD ?
Maybe a dumb question but I thought they were not ?

[Hatter]

You're using the 'Target' bullets right?

I can't really figure out where Berger draw the line on what is and isn't a VLD bullet.

This is what they describe VLD as...

The VLD bullet design is a combination of two very specific features. The first is a boat tail which is common on long and heavy bullets. The second and most important design feature is the long secant ogive. It is this ogive shape that allows the bullet to experience less drag as it flies to the target. This reduced drag is how the VLD shoots flatter and is less affected by wind (less drift) than other bullets. Reduced drag also translates into higher retained velocity. These are important results if you want your bullet to help improve your accuracy by requiring less sight adjustments when conditions change.

So a boattail with a long secant ogive. Ok...

In the .30 cal they have 3 similar bullets.

155 gr Match VLD Target - BC 0.439
155 gr Match Hybrid Target - BC 0.483
155.5 gr Match Fullbore Target - BC 0.464

They're all boat tails with secant ogives. But in this trio the VLD has the lowest BC bullet (by quite a larger margin compared to the Hybrid Target too) is the VLD which seems counter intuitive

[Davies]

Maybe only 1 guy there designs the VLD bullets so whatever he makes is VLD and whatever the other guys make isn't

[Tiger650]

Excellent result today using advice ex Techc and Eric Stecker, it has bee a while since I visited this subject but you all know how life and other things get in the way, partly it is because I thought it better for the young bloke to get trigger time with a proven 168gn SMK load to improve his confidence and abilities rather than use him as a lab rat for load development on the 155.5 Bergers.
Today he shot a 11.14mm/100yd/5rd group out of the Remington with the Bergers at 2.130" OTB.
Eric Stecker plainly does not talk $hit LOL.
That group is exceptional for a shooter of Kens experience level and a great confidence booster, also a big relief for the old man to see the Bergers doing well at last, we had recently taken delivery of an additional 200 projectiles from BRT [highly recommended], money does not grow on trees.
We also had along an Omark M44 which my brother has given to Ken, the rifle came with a Weaver rail fitted and an unfitted "Mark"4x12x50 scope, I bought some med height 1" rings on Ebay for $35 and fitted and lapped for the scope yesterday.
Bloody good rings, all screws torqued up well and minimum lapping was required, consider that option.
Ken had loaded 10 rds with 155.5 gn Bergers / 46gn AR2208 in new Lapua cases at an arbitrary OTB, cannot recall what that is but it is recorded.
I volunteered to zero the Omark at 100 yds with him spotting fall of shot through the scope on the Remington, bloody kids ! " there was a puff of dust behind the target" !!!
With the young bloke's invaluable assistance I got the Omark on the paper at rd 7 and two more to get it zeroed to point of aim.
I should mention at this point that I have not shot off the bench for 20 yrs and Ken was hogging our only rear bag.
Rd 10 went downrange and Ken yelled that he did not know where it had gone, I gave him and old bloke $hiteating grin and said that I did.
The Cowardly Lion part of Tiger was happy that I had run out of ammunition, for sure another three rounds into that group would have made a goose of me.
Upon examination of targets I shot a .01" two round group, Ken is at the stage of learning where he will habitually pop one out to spoil a really really good group.
It was an excellent day, whilst drones were fixated on their massive flat screens watching an auto circus we shot well.

[sarki]

I can't really figure out where Berger draw the line on what is and isn't a VLD bullet.

Wherever the marketing department says?