6.5 X 55 vs .308

[Squiddy]

Im either opening a huge can of worms here or resurrecting a very old thread somewhere.

Looking at long range precision target shooting caliber out to 1000m and for weekends down at Little River.

Decided on either a Tikka T3 or a Ruger RPR for the gun itself, leaning more towards the Tikka on build quality but like the customisation ability of the RPR. Still havent made up my mind...

I know .308 is heavier bullet and cheaper to reload or buy, more readily available and widely used etc.

The 6.5 x 55 is meant to have less bullet drop and a flatter trajectory and be better at longer ranges - I think generally still supersonic past 1000m as opposed to the .308?

What is better for long range target shooting? Not overly concerned with cost per round as long as it shoots like a laser.

If the 6.5 x 55 is superior why isn't it as prevalent as the .308 with the resurgence of precision shooting the last few years? Is this primarily due to the bulk of sporting arms coming out of the USA as opposed to Europe and being the .308 the cartridge of choice for the military?

[Baronvonrort]

I would go the 6.5x284 Norma over the Swedish mauser 6.5x55.
With 140gr Amax the 6.5x284 Norma should be supersonic for around 1200-1300m, about 3.2 MOA flatter than a 300 win mag with 180gr Amax at 1000m.

It doesn't really matter with flatter shooting at the range where distance is known, it's just a few more or less clicks on the scope, the higher BC projectiles will be affected less by the wind.
A .243/260//308 can be supersonic out to 1100m.

I would go have a look at what people are using for 1000m before making a decision

[Gwion]

The Baron has a point. The 6.5-284 gives you more than the 55. Also agree that you should think about checking out what's being used on the line.

I'd also consider a build over a factory rifle. Once you get the factory rifle and then spend all your money 'upgrading', it may work out cheaper to build one from scratch and end up with a better rifle.

Here's an idea:
- Buy this https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=71389
- Get a barrel chambered in 284 Shehane http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... elieve-it/ from these guys http://www.truefliteriflebarrels.co.nz/ ... erings.asp
- Get the action trued and barrel fitted by a good smith (guessing well <$500)
- Fit a 20moa rail
- Drop it in something like this http://thegunsmiths.com.au/grs-fc/ or this if you prefer http://thegunsmiths.com.au/grs-sptvrm/

......... and for around $2500 + glass/mounts, you will be banging them right out there with an accurised, semi custom rifle. Sell the Remington barrel to pay for scope mounts.

Sorry, i just love imagining what i could do with a few grand spare.

[No1Mk3]

G'day Squiddy,
The whole question is spurious, neither is "better" or "worse" than the other. World championships have been won with both calibers, though the 6.5SKAN uses heavy Shultz&Larsen barreled rifles for 1000m and very high BC projectiles are available for each. For fullbore / high power shooting the old Swede has been surpassed by several "modern" offerings, including the very popular 6.5-284. These smaller calibers are popular for their low recoil. Remember. the only thing that shoots like a laser is a laser or the Trigger Nut. Buy the platform that you desire, and practice your wind and mirage reading, Cheers.

[Squiddy]

Sooooooo.....

I've done more research on the web and youtube and managed to confuse myself even more...

The more I look into it, the more it seems .308 is better for hunting (which I wont be doing) in terms of stopping power. 6.5 caliber seems to be favoured with long distance shooters over the .308.

I'm fairly new to all of this but 6.5 x 284 seems pretty specialised and not many guns are available in it?

[Gwion]

I'm fairly new to all of this but 6.5 x 284 seems pretty specialised and not many guns are available in it?

That's why you get a rifle built.

The question is, what sort of target shooting are you interested in, ie: what specific discipline?

Certain disciplines have restrictions on what cartridge, powder, projectiles you can use; some are more of a free for all with in a weight limit for the rifle/rig. This will dictate what you will get in the end.

If you are happy just to challenge yourself with casual target work under no organised club/competition structure, then you can get what ever the hell you want. I which case, my suggestion would be to get something chambered in a known accurate, affordable and commonly available cartridge and shoot to your hearts content. By the time you gone through between 2000- 8000 rounds, you will be ready for a new barrel, will have learned to reload for improved accuracy and will likely have taken up a discipline or have given it away. In all likelyhood, you will have built yourself a specialised rifle (most likely single shot for max rigidity in the action) for the task by then, if you are serious about continuing.

My suggestion above isn't so silly. Buy a cheap but known quality 2nd hand rifle in 308 (i suggested the 30-06 for the action length to load 284shehane with long bullets into the mag), spend money on good glass, shoot the bejesus outta the thing, get the action trued & rebarrelled in some awesome cartridge once you have the techniques of reloading down pat and have pushed every bit of accuracy you can out of your skills and that set up, bed it good and proper into a good stock..... Spread your expenses over a couple of years while you build your skills with a good old standard, rather than trying to get a factory rifle in some wonder cartridge from the start. There is something to be said about starting with a cartridge that offers slightly less ballistic advantage, in that you will learn to read/adjust for drop & wind more readily. Also, a 308 will allow you give a whole bunch of disciplines a go.
Unless you've got a heap of cash, then get a rifle built from day 1!

Just my take on it.

[Baronvonrort]

Sooooooo.....

I've done more research on the web and youtube and managed to confuse myself even more...

The more I look into it, the more it seems .308 is better for hunting (which I wont be doing) in terms of stopping power. 6.5 caliber seems to be favoured with long distance shooters over the .308.

I'm fairly new to all of this but 6.5 x 284 seems pretty specialised and not many guns are available in it?

Savage make a few 6.5x284 Norma at reasonable prices.

[Harts]

A Model 12 Benchrest has been in my gunporn collection for a while

[happyhunter]

.

[Squiddy]

On the whole after doing all this research over the past few days, the 6.5x55 probably has the .308 pipped at longer ranges.

This being said - I think Its almost or over $2 a shot and ammunition is harder to buy and more exy than .308. From what I understand its pretty much a gun that needs your own hand loading. The best factory ammo seems to be 140gr Hornady superformance or Norma 130gr range (but I'm guessing at least $3 per bang for the norma).

The .260 is also an option....

[Gwion]

A lot of people love the 260. Don't know ammo cost though. You will start teliading soon enough, no matter the cartridge you choose to start,

[Gwion]

By the way. What other rifles do you have?

[Squiddy]

By the way. What other rifles do you have?

First purchase.

This why I don't want to do a custom build.

I'd be lying if I said I was frightened by the prospect of reloading. I've never done anything like it before and I would seriously wonder about a round going off in my face.

[Gwion]

Get a 22lr, develop some core skills at 50 m, push it out to 100m. Get a 223 how's or Tika and work your way out to 300. Then worry about something that can shoot past 500 and out to 1000.

You'll be wasting time and money trying to shoot long range without first getting it tight closer in.

Just trying to help, not being a prick about it.

[sandgroperbill]

Gwion offers you good advice here

[<<Genesis93>>]

Squiddy,

What is your shooting history / experience?
First firearm....ever?

[Squiddy]

Get a 22lr, develop some core skills at 50 m, push it out to 100m. Get a 223 how's or Tika and work your way out to 300. Then worry about something that can shoot past 500 and out to 1000.

You'll be wasting time and money trying to shoot long range without first getting it tight closer in.

Just trying to help, not being a prick about it.

Yeah.....nah......

If I was completely inexperienced and wanted to begin I would start with a .22 or .223 to learn the basics of shooting, owning and cleaning. But I really cant justify the outlay of owning several guns smaller guns over a number of years when I can make a good decision to begin with and save the money, time and hassle.

[Squiddy]

Squiddy,

What is your shooting history / experience?
First firearm....ever?

Went shooting a bit on family farms up near Mansfield when I was young, but this was using a Gevarm .22 LR semi auto (prior to 96), Winchester .22 LR and a single barrel shotgun I think it was BRNO(?) back in the 90s.

Going back to when I lived in the USA a couple of years ago shot these routinely with the guys I used to work with in Colorado every couple of weeks (who had extensive collections).

That I can remember:

Remington model 700 .308
Ruger mini 14 .223
AR 15 .223
Winchester Model 70 25-06

A bunch of hand guns ( XDS .45, .357 Mag, .44 mag (which had a little scope, kinda cool), an antique makarov, glock 9mm etc...

Then there's all the funky stuff at shooting ranges in Virginia, Denver/Colorado Springs and Vegas.

Also a bunch of air rifles when I was younger.

[Gwion]

A bloke at the range put away his Savage target single shot 308 after the first string yesterday and got out his 6.5x55 hunting rifle loaded with his home rolled Berger Hybrid 140s, just to give it a run.

At 500yd he shot a 50.1 with the 308 target rifle off a joystick rest (that he wasn't used to because it was new to him) and a 54.2 with the 6.5 hunting rifle off a folding, hunting style bi-pod. Don't know what that tells us; the wind was just as tricky on both strings; was a good direct comparison for your question, though.

[Squiddy]

A bloke at the range put away his Savage target single shot 308 after the first string yesterday and got out his 6.5x55 hunting rifle loaded with his home rolled Berger Hybrid 140s, just to give it a run.

At 500yd he shot a 50.1 with the 308 target rifle off a joystick rest (that he wasn't used to because it was new to him) and a 54.2 with the 6.5 hunting rifle off a folding, hunting style bi-pod. Don't know what that tells us; the wind was just as tricky on both strings; was a good direct comparison for your question, though.

Cheers.

I've been getting seriously lost in all the web research, fan boys, forums etc.

I'll probably go down the .260 or 6.5x55 route, but it looks as though I'll have to invest in reloading and learn how to do it.

[happyhunter]

.

[Squiddy]

Nup, paperwork submitted, probably 2 weeks off.

[Gregg]

I've done more research on the web and youtube and managed to confuse myself even more...

The more I look into it, the more it seems .308 is better for hunting (which I wont be doing) in terms of stopping power. 6.5 calibre seems to be favoured with long distance shooters over the .308.

As No1Mk3 started, "better" is a largely erroneous term when it comes to shooting (and all things really).

The comments you've read stating the .308 is "better for hunting" is a perfect example of this. Better than what? For what? Why?

There are plenty of popular hunting cartridges, e.g. .308Win , 7mm-08 Rem, .270 Win, .260 Rem, 300 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag, 30-06 Springfield and more.

There are endless arguments to be made in favour of one option over the other. The .308 has less recoil than the 30-06, that the 7mm-08 retains more energy than the .308, that the .270 shoot flatter than the .308, that the 30-06 shoots heavier pills than the .308 etc.

At the end of the day each of these cartridges can shoot MOA inside a few hundred metres and if you put a round from any of them through the heart of a Fallow at 100 or 200 yards it will drop dead instantly.

Pull trigger = dead deer. Identical result for every cartridge. So how is one demonstrably, or even arguably, theoretically "better for hunting" than the others in that situation?

Know what I mean?

"Better" is a word for fan boys. It is not an objective description.

For any task there will be a dozen different cartridges that are reasonably fit for that purpose. Each will superior to the others in some respect, and inferior in another; lets call these perks and disadvantages.

Some shooters will enjoy shooting a lower recoil cartridge more.

Others will be able to handle more recoil so go for something firing heavier pills for the advantages they bring.

Some value more readily available ammunition and a level of convenience.

Others don't mind more laborious/costly ammunition even if it only means an marginal increase in accuracy.

Some want a faster/flatter shooting for an increased maximum point blank range.

Others opt for something that burns less power and is friendlier on the wallet.

Which one is ultimately the one for you depends on which perk its most desirable to you and which disadvantages don't bother you (or that you can live with).

[Gwion]

Great post and well put, Gregg!

[Squiddy]

I've done more research on the web and youtube and managed to confuse myself even more...

The more I look into it, the more it seems .308 is better for hunting (which I wont be doing) in terms of stopping power. 6.5 calibre seems to be favoured with long distance shooters over the .308.

As No1Mk3 started, "better" is a largely erroneous term when it comes to shooting (and all things really).

The comments you've read stating the .308 is "better for hunting" is a perfect example of this. Better than what? For what? Why?

There are plenty of popular hunting cartridges, e.g. .308Win , 7mm-08 Rem, .270 Win, .260 Rem, 300 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag, 30-06 Springfield and more.

There are endless arguments to be made in favour of one option over the other. The .308 has less recoil than the 30-06, that the 7mm-08 retains more energy than the .308, that the .270 shoot flatter than the .308, that the 30-06 shoots heavier pills than the .308 etc.

Which one is ultimately the one for you depends on which perk its most desirable to you and which disadvantages don't bother you (or that you can live with).

Of course. An experienced .308 shooter is going to have much better groups at 1000 yds than a newbie with a precision 6.5mm. Simply because they know how to shoot properly.

What I was getting at is that a lot of shooters will run out and buy a .303 or a .308 in Australia as soon as they are licensed. This is due largely to stopping power, factory ammunition availability, popularity and parts.

Correct, most calibers you listed will stop a Deer, however the minimum is .270 in Vic, ruling out the .260 rem - with the exception of Fallow and Chital in which case the minimum is .243.

I am giving consideration to other calibers because this is going to be primarily a range gun. I have no interest in shooting Bambi between the eyes, unless it is wielding some sort of projectile weapon. Why I'm inquiring about the 6.5's is because I don't need Howitzer stopping power or Mike Tyson recoil, I want something that will shoot straight, long and far, and most of research/speaking with people leads me to believe they do a better job at this (especially when you know what you're doing).

Apologies about my erroneous questions - I am not as experienced as the old timers and blokes on the forum that have been hand loading since they were in the womb, and I never claim to be. If I dont ask the questions, I'll never learn! I'm trying to make a good informed decision for my first purchase, without the need to re-buy in 6 months time when I crack it or realise I've made a mistake.

This being said, time for my next stupid question:

Tikka Sporter in .260 or 6.5x55
or
Ruger Precision Rifle 6.5mm Creedmoor?

[Gwion]

Honestly don't think a sporter weight rifle will cut it for you. Although, i was talking to a senior target rifle shooter and he was telling me the old blokes used to use heavy barrels out to 600yd and then light weight barrels out at 1000yd. Something to do with varying weights in projectiles and load charges in old 303 factory ammo and the lighter weight barrel compensating for that through nodal vibrations/oscillations....... anyway, that's a different story.

It is common and accepted wisdom that a heavier, stiffer barrel will give less variation in barrel harmonics as the barrel heats up while shooting long strings at targets or varmints (vermin). So, maybe a varmint weight rifle is the go as a starting point.

Finally, i don't think Gregg was having a go at you; merely pointing out that neither round is 'better' and that there are probably (are) quite a number of cartridges that will suit the job "as well or better" depending on your requirements.

Shooting being what it is, you will probably be questioning your choice in a year or so, no matter what you choose. Maybe something else will be/ would have been "better". If you want low recoil, good BCs and a factory rifle, by all means, get your 6.5x55 and spend your time learning it's performance characteristics and developing a spot on load for it.

(edit for spelling and such.)

[Squiddy]

Finally, i don't think Gregg was having a go at you; merely pointing out that neither round is 'better' and that there are probably (are) quite a number of cartridges that will suit the job "as well or better" depending on your requirements.

(edit for spelling and such.)

I know - I didnt mean for my reply to sound snappy. I understand between some of the questions that get asked on this forum and the guys on here that work in the gun stores that probably get a lot of this every day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRLVgFNTnIg

[sandgroperbill]

I would probably decide the rifle before the caliber when you're first starting out. Go and fondle a few and see which ones fit you the best. Then find out what calibers they are available in and go from there.
The difference between these two cartridges is going to be less important than a good fitting rifle

[Gwion]

I would probably decide the rifle before the caliber when you're first starting out. Go and fondle a few and see which ones fit you the best. Then find out what calibers they are available in and go from there.
The difference between these two cartridges is going to be less important than a good fitting rifle

Totally agree. Even though i'd never buy one. If you are going to spend that money on a Ruger, then stretch another $3-500 and get a Remington Sendero. At least you will have a good action and platform, that apparently every gunsmith on the planet knows how to make shoot well.


Or; so youtube tells us; Rem 700 action is the most copied of them all..... easy to bed, easy to blue print/true up.

So when you go for a new barrel, new stock, etc., at least you'll have an action that will last a life time.

Or so i am lead to believe.

Options, options, options......

[Gregg]

Apologies about my erroneous questions - I am not as experienced as the old timers and blokes on the forum that have been hand loading since they were in the womb, and I never claim to be. If I dont ask the questions, I'll never learn! I'm trying to make a good informed decision for my first purchase, without the need to re-buy in 6 months time when I crack it or realise I've made a mistake.

Don't apologize mate.

I think we're on the same page here but to be clear, I wasn't having a go at you or saying you were asking stupid questions.

Just saying be aware of the nature of the advice you follow. Some people will swear blind and defend to the bitter end that something is "better" without much to back it up, other than the fact they bought one.

While I think about it, just wait until you have someone tell you .308 is no good for hunting because of its "rainbow" like trajectory That's always good for a laugh.

Of course ask questions, do the research and at the end of the day go with what will suit you.