Newby calibre advice

Calibres, cartridges, ballistics tables and ammunition information.

Newby calibre advice

Post by Gettingstarted » 28 Oct 2016, 8:39 am

Hi all. Recently joined the forum and more recently obtained my licence and out shopping for two rifles and I'm interested in getting some knowledgable advice from around here. I'm going to buy a 22lr (most likely Lithgow) but also after also small calibre centrefire. Will almost exclusively be hunting rabbits and foxes and tossing up between 204 and 223 with a preference for the 204 for flatter shooting.

Any advice/ or good reasons people may have for me that would tip the balance in favour of either calibre?


Cheers.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by AusTac » 28 Oct 2016, 8:49 am

For small critters a little further away .223 would be my choice, fairly cheap to shoot and still have a wide selection of brands to choose from
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by Bills Shed » 28 Oct 2016, 9:06 am

Small centre fire, have a look at the 17 Hornet. Fast and flat, half the powder of a 223 but a bit limited on projectile selection. Had a 223 and sold it. The 17 is far quieter and for rabbits and foxes more than enough gun.

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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by nightforcenxs » 28 Oct 2016, 9:44 am

i would go .223 heaps of choices in factory ammo and if you get into reloading its insanely cheap
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by happyhunter » 28 Oct 2016, 9:46 am

For hunting rabbits and foxes I highly recommend the 204 Ruger.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by Supaduke » 28 Oct 2016, 10:30 am

For your first centre fire rifle the choice is easy. Go for a .223, plentiful ammo choices, plenty of knowledge and information. Ammo is cheap and readily available. It will do well in target shooting and hunting small to medium game. It's a great all rounder and perfect choice as a first time centre fire.

Is .204 good? Yes of course it is. Is it the best choice for a first time shooter, no, .223 is a better choice.

.204 is a varmint round. On the sliding scale of target/hunting it's biased way towards hunting. The .223rem is right in the middle ground for target/hunting making it the perfect choice for first timers.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by bladeracer » 28 Oct 2016, 12:42 pm

Gettingstarted wrote:Hi all. Recently joined the forum and more recently obtained my licence and out shopping for two rifles and I'm interested in getting some knowledgable advice from around here. I'm going to buy a 22lr (most likely Lithgow) but also after also small calibre centrefire. Will almost exclusively be hunting rabbits and foxes and tossing up between 204 and 223 with a preference for the 204 for flatter shooting.

Any advice/ or good reasons people may have for me that would tip the balance in favour of either calibre?


Cheers.



If you're only going to buy one centrefire rifle, then I'd recommend .223 over .204.
I love the .204, but it is significantly restricted in bullet weights - 24gn to 45gn.
An 8"-twist .223 will shoot 30gn to 80gn bullets, so I really only use the 24gn bullet in the .204, with cheap 32gn loads for close range work.
The .204's accuracy and trajectory with the 24gn bullets is amazing, but the .223 with light bullets is not to be sneezed at.
My .204 is currently zeroed with the 24gn NTX at 4400fps at 260yds, putting it 50mm high at 160yds and 50mm low at 300yds.
For comparison, the .223 with a 40gn Sierra HP at 3400fps and 260yd zero would be 100mm high at 160yds and 100mm low at 300yds.
But if you zero the .223 with the 40gn at 175yds, you only have 26mm high and low out to 200yds.
Plus, if you want to be able to eat the rabbits, the .204 doesn't leave much more than a puddle of furry mince.
Last edited by bladeracer on 28 Oct 2016, 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by brett1868 » 28 Oct 2016, 12:42 pm

I'm voting .223 purely based on the availability of both the rifles and ammunition. I have a Rugar .17 Hornet which is a great little shooter and a Sako .204 Rugar that's equally lethal but both can be difficult to find ammo for in regional areas. The .223 is very popular with plenty of ammo available and when you start reloading it'll be easier to reload.
And get yourself a shotgun :)
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by pomemax » 28 Oct 2016, 12:46 pm

Thought you would say a .50 cal brett1868 you shoot what ever you like with that lol
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by Gettingstarted » 28 Oct 2016, 1:30 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I had a play with a number of 204 models at LGS and particularly like the feel of the tikka SS hunter with timber stock. Good weight and fit - comes in 223 so may re-think calibre.
I plan a mix of sitting and varmint shooting out to 300 but also walk and stalking as have access to a few thousand acres with a mix of hills and bush plus open paddocks with very cagey pests. The rifle mentioned above suitable?
Anyone who reloads both have some real costs per round once setup of 204 v 223
Again - appreciate time taken for advice.

Cheers.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by bladeracer » 28 Oct 2016, 2:38 pm

Gettingstarted wrote:Thanks for the feedback. I had a play with a number of 204 models at LGS and particularly like the feel of the tikka SS hunter with timber stock. Good weight and fit - comes in 223 so may re-think calibre.
I plan a mix of sitting and varmint shooting out to 300 but also walk and stalking as have access to a few thousand acres with a mix of hills and bush plus open paddocks with very cagey pests. The rifle mentioned above suitable?
Anyone who reloads both have some real costs per round once setup of 204 v 223
Again - appreciate time taken for advice.

Cheers.



Cost of loading will be fairly similar with equal quality components, but you can buy cheaper brass in .223 and cheaper bulk bullets, particularly if you buy thousands at a time.
.223 also offers some very expensive premium bullets.
.204 needs more frequent bore cleaning than the .223, but not as bad as the .17's.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by bladeracer » 28 Oct 2016, 3:00 pm

I forgot the real costs per round.
My .204 with the 24gn NTX at 4400fps costs me 76c per round, assuming 25 loads per case which I've already exceeded.
My .204 Trailboss loads with the 32gn ZMax at 2400fps cost me 38c each, but I doubt the brass will ever wear out so 35c is probably more realistic - I just bought 200rds of .22LR CCI Quiet Segmented HP for 34c a piece for comparison.
For .223 you can buy 55gn SP's for maybe 12-15c each, or less if you buy crates of them. Most of the higher-quality bullets are going to be in the 35-65c area.
Assuming you'll mostly be shooting the 50-55gn bullets your full-power charges will be in the 20-24gn area, and with cheap or once-fired brass you should be able to shoot .223 for as low as 35-40c a round. Some of the premium .224 bullets you might pay $2 a piece for, and would probably want high-quality brass as well.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by Oldbloke » 28 Oct 2016, 4:08 pm

Supaduke wrote:For your first centre fire rifle the choice is easy. Go for a .223, plentiful ammo choices, plenty of knowledge and information. Ammo is cheap and readily available. It will do well in target shooting and hunting small to medium game. It's a great all rounder and perfect choice as a first time centre fire.

Is .204 good? Yes of course it is. Is it the best choice for a first time shooter, no, .223 is a better choice.

.204 is a varmint round. On the sliding scale of target/hunting it's biased way towards hunting. The .223rem is right in the middle ground for target/hunting making it the perfect choice for first timers.



I agree. 223 is hard to pass up. Also heaps of brand choices. When you move to the less common calibres you may also run into
Problems getting ammo or components as soon as you move away from cities. Not saying 204 is in that class but some popular calibres are popular for good reason.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by happyhunter » 28 Oct 2016, 7:24 pm

Gettingstarted wrote:Thanks for the feedback. I had a play with a number of 204 models at LGS and particularly like the feel of the tikka SS hunter with timber stock. Good weight and fit - comes in 223 so may re-think calibre.
I plan a mix of sitting and varmint shooting out to 300 but also walk and stalking as have access to a few thousand acres with a mix of hills and bush plus open paddocks with very cagey pests. The rifle mentioned above suitable?
Anyone who reloads both have some real costs per round once setup of 204 v 223
Again - appreciate time taken for advice.

Cheers.


If you had the 204 in mind don't be discouraged. I've had no problems getting ammo or hand loading components and always lived in regional areas. It's no more difficult or easier to hand load for than the 223. Brass is plentiful, you can buy zmax projectiles real cheap in bulk and primers/powders are the same you would use for 223.

The 32 grain and 40 grain Vmax (or 39 sierra blitzes) are ideal. The 24 grain NTX looses momentum really quick and the heavier projectiles actually shoot flatter as past 300 meters the 24s fall on their arse.

The 204 does not foul up the bore quicker than a 223. How dirty the bore gets depends on the type of primer/powder/projectile you are using.

The last 223 I owned was a Mini 14 that went tata a long time ago. There is some good advice on why a 223 is a good choice but if you want to hunt the animals you listed, the 204 has the advantage.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by bladeracer » 28 Oct 2016, 9:22 pm

happyhunter wrote:The 32 grain and 40 grain Vmax (or 39 sierra blitzes) are ideal. The 24 grain NTX looses momentum really quick and the heavier projectiles actually shoot flatter as past 300 meters the 24s fall on their arse.


I have to agree with this, if you want to shoot much further than 300 meters with the .204 go with the 40gn VMax. By 200 meters the 24gn is losing velocity rapidly, (both hold near identical trajectories out to 350m), but from 350m out the 40gn holds on to it's trajectory, and more importantly, it's energy very well, and the 40gn is far less affected by wind.

As an aside, I was all set to hand over the money for a .223 a couple weeks back, but I put in some research and decided to go with the .243. The .243 with the 58gn VMax also matches the .204's 24gn/40gn trajectory out to 350m, but costs more to run.
I will still get the .223 but I don't have a specific need for it to fill just yet.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by brett1868 » 28 Oct 2016, 10:24 pm

Get a running start...get the 3 of them :)
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by bigfellascott » 29 Oct 2016, 4:21 am

If you are only shooting rabbits and foxes go the 204 (not like you are shooting 100's of rounds a session) but if you do go a 204 it's better to learn to reload for it to keep the costs down. Last box of factory 204 I bought was around $40 so $2 a shot so not exactly economical doing it that way, but they are like lasers in the paddock and really bang flop things of all sizes and shapes very well with head/neck shots.

Generally what I do once I find a load that shoots well in any of my firearms is I buy the components in bulk, costs a bit up front but you are G'teed a good supply of components for many years to come and you lock them in at todays prices - as many are finding out components are going up and up on a regular basis so buy up when the opportunity presents I say.

Nothing wrong with a 223 either, got one of them to use if I choose too but over those 2 cals the 204 gets the gig for foxes and rabbits every single time.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by sandgroperbill » 29 Oct 2016, 10:51 am

Both very good calibers.

But you said you'd found a rifle you really like that fit you well, so buy it. Rifle fit is going to be more important than the difference between the two calibers given the prey.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by Gwion » 30 Oct 2016, 11:54 am

I agree with the statement that 223 is better for a newby. Also fits your bill very well.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by bigfellascott » 30 Oct 2016, 12:19 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Gettingstarted wrote:Thanks for the feedback. I had a play with a number of 204 models at LGS and particularly like the feel of the tikka SS hunter with timber stock. Good weight and fit - comes in 223 so may re-think calibre.
I plan a mix of sitting and varmint shooting out to 300 but also walk and stalking as have access to a few thousand acres with a mix of hills and bush plus open paddocks with very cagey pests. The rifle mentioned above suitable?
Anyone who reloads both have some real costs per round once setup of 204 v 223
Again - appreciate time taken for advice.

Cheers.



Cost of loading will be fairly similar with equal quality components, but you can buy cheaper brass in .223 and cheaper bulk bullets, particularly if you buy thousands at a time.
.223 also offers some very expensive premium bullets.
.204 needs more frequent bore cleaning than the .223, but not as bad as the .17's.


Last bag of 204 brass cost me $41 per 100. I find the biggest expense of any reloading is the projectile as a rule, the premium ones can really add to the cost of a reloaded round, the best projectile I found for cost effectiveness and great performance was the Sierra Super Roo (1000pk) I managed to get them for $110 about 4yrs ago which = 11c a projectile, now I think they are up around 16c depending on where you buy them from.

My 204 projies cost around 39c each (premium Sierra BK 39's) and you can buy projies for the 204 for around 9.9c for the Hornady Zmax and no doubt there are others out there that are just as cheap.

As for barrel cleaning, I can't say I notice any issues with having to clean it any more than any other cal I use, they all get cleaned after each hunt anyway. :unknown:

Pretty sure the OP's only hunting a few bunnies and foxes so cost won't be that great a drama but definitely the 204 is one cal that really should be reloaded if you want to keep costs down to a reasonable level. Last boxes of factory 204 cost around $40 (premium ammo) .

The 204 really is perfect for smashing bunnies and foxes at long long ranges (not that the 223 can't do the same) just takes a bit more elevation etc to get the job done.

End of the day hunting doesn't usually involve high volume shooting, sometimes no shots are taken so cost becomes somewhat irrelevant in such situations. Range shooting well that's a diff matter all together.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by bladeracer » 30 Oct 2016, 12:36 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Last bag of 204 brass cost me $41 per 100. I find the biggest expense of any reloading is the projectile as a rule, the premium ones can really add to the cost of a reloaded round, the best projectile I found for cost effectiveness and great performance was the Sierra Super Roo (1000pk) I managed to get them for $110 about 4yrs ago which = 11c a projectile, now I think they are up around 16c depending on where you buy them from.

My 204 projies cost around 39c each (premium Sierra BK 39's) and you can buy projies for the 204 for around 9.9c for the Hornady Zmax and no doubt there are others out there that are just as cheap.

As for barrel cleaning, I can't say I notice any issues with having to clean it any more than any other cal I use, they all get cleaned after each hunt anyway. :unknown:

Pretty sure the OP's only hunting a few bunnies and foxes so cost won't be that great a drama but definitely the 204 is one cal that really should be reloaded if you want to keep costs down to a reasonable level. Last boxes of factory 204 cost around $40 (premium ammo) .

The 204 really is perfect for smashing bunnies and foxes at long long ranges (not that the 223 can't do the same) just takes a bit more elevation etc to get the job done.

End of the day hunting doesn't usually involve high volume shooting, sometimes no shots are taken so cost becomes somewhat irrelevant in such situations. Range shooting well that's a diff matter all together.



Good info there.
Who makes the $41 .204 Brass?
I'm using Norma and Hornady and both were $100 per hundred.
Cheapest brass I've bought was the 6.5x52mm Carcano at $35 per hundred, which is pretty odd I think as I can't get bullets for it at all.

I shoot several of my rifles every week, I keep shot logs for every firearm and clean them based on round count. Certainly not every time I shoot them - except the blackpowder, that gets cleaned as soon as the last ball leaves the muzzle. If I've been out in the rain I'll clean them though.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by bigfellascott » 30 Oct 2016, 12:58 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:Last bag of 204 brass cost me $41 per 100. I find the biggest expense of any reloading is the projectile as a rule, the premium ones can really add to the cost of a reloaded round, the best projectile I found for cost effectiveness and great performance was the Sierra Super Roo (1000pk) I managed to get them for $110 about 4yrs ago which = 11c a projectile, now I think they are up around 16c depending on where you buy them from.

My 204 projies cost around 39c each (premium Sierra BK 39's) and you can buy projies for the 204 for around 9.9c for the Hornady Zmax and no doubt there are others out there that are just as cheap.

As for barrel cleaning, I can't say I notice any issues with having to clean it any more than any other cal I use, they all get cleaned after each hunt anyway. :unknown:

Pretty sure the OP's only hunting a few bunnies and foxes so cost won't be that great a drama but definitely the 204 is one cal that really should be reloaded if you want to keep costs down to a reasonable level. Last boxes of factory 204 cost around $40 (premium ammo) .

The 204 really is perfect for smashing bunnies and foxes at long long ranges (not that the 223 can't do the same) just takes a bit more elevation etc to get the job done.

End of the day hunting doesn't usually involve high volume shooting, sometimes no shots are taken so cost becomes somewhat irrelevant in such situations. Range shooting well that's a diff matter all together.



Good info there.
Who makes the $41 .204 Brass?
I'm using Norma and Hornady and both were $100 per hundred.
Cheapest brass I've bought was the 6.5x52mm Carcano at $35 per hundred, which is pretty odd I think as I can't get bullets for it at all.

I shoot several of my rifles every week, I keep shot logs for every firearm and clean them based on round count. Certainly not every time I shoot them - except the blackpowder, that gets cleaned as soon as the last ball leaves the muzzle. If I've been out in the rain I'll clean them though.


Remington. :thumbsup:
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by bladeracer » 30 Oct 2016, 1:06 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Remington. :thumbsup:



Thanks for that :-)
I'll have a look at those when I need the next batch.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by bigfellascott » 30 Oct 2016, 1:21 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:Remington. :thumbsup:



Thanks for that :-)
I'll have a look at those when I need the next batch.


From memory they were from HPGS (about 2yrs ago) :thumbsup:
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by Bills Shed » 31 Oct 2016, 6:21 am

[quote="Cost of loading will be fairly similar with equal quality components, but you can buy cheaper brass in .223 and cheaper bulk bullets, particularly if you buy thousands at a time.
.223 also offers some very expensive premium bullets.
.204 needs more frequent bore cleaning than the .223, but not as bad as the .17's.[/quote]

Cleaning....another issue and can of worms. I have never had a 204 but have had a 223 and still run a 17. The 17 does not need any more cleaning than any other rifle I own. Some nights it will fire a hunded rounds with no noticeable loss of accuracy. Mind you I am shooting brass jacketed projectiles and not copper but I think it makes little, if any, difference. Also on the cost of projectiles, yes the .224" diameter, common weight, projectiles are cheaper and that is the major expense. I notice that projectiles are going up in price very quickly. For smaller, not so common, calibres, even in .224, ie 40 gn hornet, the prices are right up there. It is one of the reasons that I got into swaging projectiles. My cost will never increase.
To the OP, if you want to keep it simple and keep the cost down, I would have to say go the 223, then get into reloading and then the choice is endless. Have fun.

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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by happyhunter » 31 Oct 2016, 1:10 pm

bigfellascott wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:Remington. :thumbsup:



Thanks for that :-)
I'll have a look at those when I need the next batch.


From memory they were from HPGS (about 2yrs ago) :thumbsup:


The price of Remington cases has been pretty stable. I haven't bought any for a while but they are still under 50 bucks last I saw, which was a few weeks back.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by Garth » 07 Nov 2016, 2:09 pm

223 bit like bums every one has one easy to get ammo and large selection of projectiles
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by Gettingstarted » 05 Dec 2016, 1:52 pm

Took the plunge, and went with the 204 Tikka hunter with SS fluted. After the feedback here on ammo availability it did some ringing around and found it readily available at a couple of my LGS so that tipped the scales in that direction. Took it out for the first time on the weekend and really pleased. Was really windy and gusty while sighting in but was able to get groups of 3 at around the 1inch or a bit over straight out of the box at 100 metres. I feel my shooting skill at present is not doing the rifle justice. Can only get better.
Found pretty quickly 40grn to be more consistent than 32 and for around half the price sellier and bellot to be more than enough for pegging vermin.
On a side note, went with a cogswell and Harrison 22lr and again very pleased. Was a bit concerned after I got talked into it at LGS but couldn't be more impressed with accuracy. Tried 8 brands of ammo and found with both Winchester and eley subs it could do I 5 group consistently into 10-15 mm circle.
Thanks to all who provided advice, it was all taken on board - when I decided not to go 223 I figured there's nothing to stop me getting one down the track if the 204 doesn't live up to expectations! Cheers.
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by Khan » 05 Dec 2016, 2:33 pm

Gettingstarted wrote:Will almost exclusively be hunting rabbits and foxes and tossing up between 204 and 223 with a preference for the 204 for flatter shooting.


You've already got it so not that this matters now :lol: but just for the sake of conversation.

I wouldn't count flatter shooting from the .204 as the definitive factor in buying one.

Yeah, the 24gr loads for .204 are fkn fast (flat) over the first few hundred metres but that drops off.

Shooting any heavier pills performance from the .223 is close enough to the same or sometimes better.

Comparing load data from ADI max velocities for a 35gr pill in each cartridge are

.204 Ruger: 3,961 fps
.223 Rem: 3,891 fps

70fps slower from the .223, only a little really when you're talking about near 4,000 fps muzzle velocity.


With 50gr pills max velocities are

.204 Ruger: 3,352 fps
.223 Rem: 3,468 fps

116fps faster from the 223 in that case.


Not knocking your purchase, it'll be great I'm sure :thumbsup: They both would have been.

Just mentioning it while it was going... A bit of speed here or there isn't everything.

Anyway happy shooting, enjoy!
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Re: Newby calibre advice

Post by Gettingstarted » 05 Dec 2016, 3:07 pm

No doubt the 223 would have done what I needed. As I mentioned I may well end up with one also given how addictive this seems.
Would a 50grn let me see the hit? Can you get 50grn in .2 cal?
Anyway time will tell but at the moment I could not be happier with it.
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