7.62 x 54R???

[Bushie]

I've always been a lover or milsurps and somewhere down the line I would like to purchase a Mosin Nagant as there are a few in Aus however nowhere as far as I can tell sells 7.62x54R? Anyone know anyone who sells it or reloads it?

Cheers guys

[Supaduke]

Centreway Firearms usually have heaps. John is very good for stocking all Milsurp ammo.

[Baldrick314]

Most shops should be able to order rounds for you if they don't already stock it. I know most of the military rifle blokes around here use ex mil ammo which is berdan primed so basically shoot and toss your cases but plenty of companies make boxer primed ammo. Another thing with ex mil is that it is usually mercurial primed which means you need to get your bore cleaned as soon as you possibly can after shooting it or it will begin to rust.

Alternatively you can buy cases and load your own. Last I check Aus Once Fired Brass had them for approximately 70c a case. The catch there is you get whatever headstamp you're given. I personally like having all the one headstamp for my rounds. You can also buy virgin brass but will probably be a bit more expensive.

Not sure how much you know about the 7.62x54r. It uses the .311 or .312 projectile the same as .303 British. I've also seen cases listed as 7.62x53r and 7.62 Russian, so far as I can tell they're identical to 7.62x54r. Boxer cases will take large rifle primers. For most common projectile weights ADI 2206h, 2208 or 2209 will be appropriate powder choices.

Give the largest shop close to you a call and ask them what they can get and you'll be able to work out whether it's worth reloading or just buy milsurp ammo.

[Bushie]

Most shops should be able to order rounds for you if they don't already stock it. I know most of the military rifle blokes around here use ex mil ammo which is berdan primed so basically shoot and toss your cases but plenty of companies make boxer primed ammo. Another thing with ex mil is that it is usually mercurial primed which means you need to get your bore cleaned as soon as you possibly can after shooting it or it will begin to rust.

Alternatively you can buy cases and load your own. Last I check Aus Once Fired Brass had them for approximately 70c a case. The catch there is you get whatever headstamp you're given. I personally like having all the one headstamp for my rounds. You can also buy virgin brass but will probably be a bit more expensive.

Not sure how much you know about the 7.62x54r. It uses the .311 or .312 projectile the same as .303 British. I've also seen cases listed as 7.62x53r and 7.62 Russian, so far as I can tell they're identical to 7.62x54r. Boxer cases will take large rifle primers. For most common projectile weights ADI 2206h, 2208 or 2209 will be appropriate powder choices.

Give the largest shop close to you a call and ask them what they can get and you'll be able to work out whether it's worth reloading or just buy milsurp ammo.

I had never even heard of berdan primed ammo, I did a little bit of research and I kind of get the jist of it but what is the point of using berdan over boxer?

Thank you for your help though mate!

[Baldrick314]

You're welcome . No advantage now. Berdan priming was the original system before boxer priming was invented. With berdan the anvil is in the primer pocket, boxer it's contained within the primer. You need special tools to remove berdan primers and as far as I'm aware noone sells berdan primers anymore so there's no point to trying to reload the cases.

[No1Mk3]

G'day Baldrick314,
Just for information, there is an actual difference between 7.62x53R and 7.62x54R. The 54 is Russian, using a .310 to .313 projectile and the 53 is Finnish, using a 308 projectile to suit there re-barrelled Nagants. The original case length for both was 53.5mm. They can be interchanged but each shoot best with their correct ammo. As for Berdan primers, Rebel in Qld and Forbes Wholesale are 2 sources for Berdan, but only .2563 and .250, I don't think they have the other sizes, Cheers,

[Baldrick314]

G'day Baldrick314,
Just for information, there is an actual difference between 7.62x53R and 7.62x54R. The 54 is Russian, using a .310 to .313 projectile and the 53 is Finnish, using a 308 projectile to suit there re-barrelled Nagants. The original case length for both was 53.5mm. They can be interchanged but each shoot best with their correct ammo. As for Berdan primers, Rebel in Qld and Forbes Wholesale are 2 sources for Berdan, but only .2563 and .250, I don't think they have the other sizes, Cheers,

Thanks mate, I always wondered why the different names

Do many people still load with berdan primers? I know a bloke who's still got a few thousands tucked away but I didn't know they were still available.

[Bushie]

Juststarting loads for the nagant.

How's it looking from a financial stand point?

[bladeracer]

Juststarting loads for the nagant.

So do I.

[bladeracer]

How's it looking from a financial stand point?

Brass was expensive ($250 for 200), but bullets are real cheap - I got over 400 1970's stock 173gn SP's with my No.4 .303 Rifle so I'm using them in the Mosin. Also 90gn .314" Lee cast lead (which is even cheaper), and Hornady .312" 100gn XTP's.
It'll cost me more when I burn up the jacketed bullets I have, but not outrageously expensive to run.

[juststarting]

Morning gentleman, it appears Bentaz has summoned moi.

Bentaz would be correct - I do indeed reload for my old girls. Press in the garage makes me feel extremely guilty at a mere thought of paying for factory ammo, like kicking puppies kind of guilty. Very guilty.

Factory ammo
Centreway Firearms usually has 7.62x54R ammo. Last time I was there (this week), I didn't pay attention to factory ammo, but they certainly had brass. I am fairly certain the'd have ammo too. Frankston has some factory ammo I believe, as well and possibly this guys: http://www.cluboutdoors.com.au (they have a very small shop in Beaumaris that services their eBay store, but they do sell ammo). Just ring around. I would buy up all PPU ammo you can, cheapest and alright brass for reloading it. More on reloading below.

Surplus ammo
Surplus ammo is fun, but Berdan primers are not your friends. I shoot it once in a while (very occasionally), but geez I hate the clean up job. You will get some residue (someone else described it in more detail above) all over the place, barrel, internal magazine, etc. Which means after you come home, you will need to strip the rifle for cleaning. And I am not talking about pulling the bolt out, I mean stripping it (http://myshootingjourney.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Mosin-stripped-1024x768.jpg) and giving it a good clean. Including pouring boiling water or diluted ammonia (household cleaning stuff) down the bore and mag, etc. To neutralise the salts. And scrub, scrub, scrub. You'll need to do this before storage or it will attract moisture (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AyRX58ZHGg). Basically, there's bunch of much much much better modern ammo, there is no need for surplus, unless you have OCD and must collect the whole set

Reloading
Projectiles will be your biggest expense. You have 2 options. Slug it and get the exact caliber you need (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm) or just go with factory minimum diameter (I posted my measurements of surplus and modern bullets here somewhere too) - 0.3105" (not .311).

If the gun is shot out a bit, you may want to slug it to get a better fit. In my case, I just purchased 1000 .3105 pills and that's that. It's not a target rifle, it's a happy blast maker, so tack driving is not an issue, as long as it shoots 1MOA of gong or whatever is being destroyed on the day. You are looking at 50c upwards. Keep an eye out on Usedguns.com.au and buy when you see bulk cheap deal. Generally, you won't find any 'Mosin' projectiles. But you will find lots of 303 - they are the same and range in diameter. Make sure you are using the right caliber - either go with standard .3105 or slug your barrel and use a better fitting diameter based on your measurements.

I think at some stage I may have bought up all 7.62x54R ammo in Melbourne . So I am set for brass, hence I am not sure about the cost exactly. I think you may be looking at 80c per case at Centreway for brand new Starline brass, I could be wrong here, but for some reason that number sticks out. But, if I were you I would just stock up on PPU factory ammo and enjoy the gun without being too concerned about reloading. Once you are happy with the gun, then reuse the brass for reloading when you're ready.

Primers will cost you around 6c - 7c each.

Powder, you'll be looking at let's say 45 grains, in case of AR2208, depends how much you paid for it, but going with say $45 for 500gm, that's 26c per cartridge for powder.

So excluding brass (since you shot it once anyway, so it's free now ), you are looking at around 83c per cartridge (i.e. the second time you use the brass).


FYI
Something to keep in mind:

Lee doesn't make Collete die to resize neck of the case (prolongs the case life heaps). I know you can get them to make you a custom Collete die specifically for your rifle, I think AUD100, but I haven't tried that yet. Instead, you will need to full length resize, which means your brass is not going to last as long if you run it hotter than it needs to be. Best to stock up on brass.


Hope this helps.

[juststarting]

p.s. casting is definitely an option, but I am guessing in your case, Bushie, it's much further down the track.

[No1Mk3]

G'day Baldrick314,
To answer your question, yes, a few people do still load with Berdan primers in ex-mil cases, including East European steel cases. If you want to try it one day it can be quite an adventure. Don't worry about Mercuric priming it hasn't been used for decades and the Potassium Chlorate corrosive ammo washes out with lukewarm water. If you shoot 110 year old ammo like I do occasionally you do need to wash with boiling water as it is Mercuric. All modern RWS Berdan primers are Non-Corrosive Lead Styphnate and no different to Boxers. I use modern Berdan in 8x57, 7.62x54R, 303Brit, 6.5x58, 7x57 and have no issues at all, other than the mess of hydraulic decapping, Cheers.
PS: It is not easy, or cost effective to load with Berdan, just a bit of fun.

[Baldrick314]

Thanks No1 . One other thing I've heard that you sound like you'd know more about, Hoppe's No. 9 allegedly neutralizes the corrosive action of mercuric primers, any truth to that? I've always gone the boiling water route just to be safe.

[Bushie]

p.s. casting is definitely an option, but I am guessing in your case, Bushie, it's much further down the track.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom mate, I will Keep all this information as somewhere down the track I would love to start reloading, not necessarily for the cost effective side it just seems like a really nice way to get more In touch with your guns and know what your shooting and working with, just wondering if you REMEBER what the factory price was for 7.62x54r at centreway firearms or wherever else you have seen it!

Also I would love to cast my own bullets me and a couple mates actually melt down scrap metal in my backyard in our own homemade foundry, I know such a weird hobby for a 16 year old!

Anyway, thanks for all your help mate!

[juststarting]

Where I've seen it - re-read this thread. Cost, I don't remember, just call shops and ask.

[Bushie]

Where I've seen it - re-read this thread. Cost, I don't remember, just call shops and ask.

I just called centreway and he said 28 bucks a box of 20, seems expensive but I suppose it's not a very popular round so what can you expect.

[Heckler303]

Bushie, I would question why you would want to own a mosin nagant. There are other surplus rifles out there that leave the mosin for dead. Partially because they can actually shoot and function far enough to allow movement of the bolt. I know the plethora of internet neckbearded armchair experts out there will tell you how great they are, how accurate mosins can shoot once you perform some kind of miracle with them...

To be really honest, mosin nagants are junk. Their balance is terrible, working the bolt is the equivalent to dragging a grand piano across a gravel beach, trigger's much the same, the sight picture is rubbish, the stock is uncomfortable and ugly as hell, and it's muzzle blast is horrendous, carbine versions especially. Anyone who's even sat next to one of them going off knows that their face is going to be covered in unburnt, cheap, rusky powder or having their hair singed. The only reason they gained their cult following was because they were a surplus rifle that while extremely cheap, can somehow be made to function without sending the bolt back into the user's face upon firing.

If you would like to get a surplus however, that shoots and functions well, take a look out for any of the Model 96, 98, K98 mauser variants out there, any of the .303s (No.1 mks, No 4 mk 1s and mk2s + No.5 jungle carbines) or even some of the more rare rifles like the Pattern 1914 and the M1917.

[Baldrick314]

I just called centreway and he said 28 bucks a box of 20, seems expensive but I suppose it's not a very popular round so what can you expect.

That's not bad, I got quoted $35/ 20 from the locals. That was Highland ammo though.

[Bushie]

Bushie, I would question why you would want to own a mosin nagant. There are other surplus rifles out there that leave the mosin for dead. Partially because they can actually shoot and function far enough to allow movement of the bolt. I know the plethora of internet neckbearded armchair experts out there will tell you how great they are, how accurate mosins can shoot once you perform some kind of miracle with them...

To be really honest, mosin nagants are junk. Their balance is terrible, working the bolt is the equivalent to dragging a grand piano across a gravel beach, trigger's much the same, the sight picture is rubbish, the stock is uncomfortable and ugly as hell, and it's muzzle blast is horrendous, carbine versions especially. Anyone who's even sat next to one of them going off knows that their face is going to be covered in unburnt, cheap, rusky powder or having their hair singed. The only reason they gained their cult following was because they were a surplus rifle that while extremely cheap, can somehow be made to function without sending the bolt back into the user's face upon firing.

If you would like to get a surplus however, that shoots and functions well, take a look out for any of the Model 96, 98, K98 mauser variants out there, any of the .303s (No.1 mks, No 4 mk 1s and mk2s + No.5 jungle carbines) or even some of the more rare rifles like the Pattern 1914 and the M1917.

I've always been a fan of old mosins and it all
Comes down to my own personal preference, and the main reason I want a Mosin is so I can look at it, clean it up shoot it maybe once every few months and to just say "I have a Mosin" I'm not looking for a mil surplus rifle to use every weekend, basically more or less a collectors piece, plus being a student with a part time job i domy really have massive budgets so cheaper rifles are what suits me at the moment, somewhere down the track I would love to have a collection of mausers, lithgows and Everytbing in between, but ever since I was a little kid I've always loved the Mosin, and I would love to get one and fix one up back to the prestigious commie rifle it once was

[juststarting]

Heckler303 is just a zealot.

[bladeracer]

Bushie, I would question why you would want to own a mosin nagant. There are other surplus rifles out there that leave the mosin for dead. Partially because they can actually shoot and function far enough to allow movement of the bolt. I know the plethora of internet neckbearded armchair experts out there will tell you how great they are, how accurate mosins can shoot once you perform some kind of miracle with them...

To be really honest, mosin nagants are junk. Their balance is terrible, working the bolt is the equivalent to dragging a grand piano across a gravel beach, trigger's much the same, the sight picture is rubbish, the stock is uncomfortable and ugly as hell, and it's muzzle blast is horrendous, carbine versions especially. Anyone who's even sat next to one of them going off knows that their face is going to be covered in unburnt, cheap, rusky powder or having their hair singed. The only reason they gained their cult following was because they were a surplus rifle that while extremely cheap, can somehow be made to function without sending the bolt back into the user's face upon firing.

If you would like to get a surplus however, that shoots and functions well, take a look out for any of the Model 96, 98, K98 mauser variants out there, any of the .303s (No.1 mks, No 4 mk 1s and mk2s + No.5 jungle carbines) or even some of the more rare rifles like the Pattern 1914 and the M1917.

Have to agree with you Heckler, it is nice to shoot them, but they're not great either in design or accuracy. They're not even cheap these days. I paid $700 for my M91/30, $800 for my No.4 Rifle, $600 for my scoped M38, $500 for my M1904/39 and $200 for my M91/38 Carcano. The M38 out-shoots all of them by a wide margin (occasional 1MoA groups), with the M1904/39 close behind.
The 6.5x55mm M38 would be my first choice of milsurp for accuracy, but they're heavy and not legal for the bigger deer.
Not a fan of the .303's either. Also heavy, and I don't find them ergonomically very good. The No.4 peep sight is excellent though, and the ten-round capacity is handy.
A Mauser in 8x57mm is a great all rounder, and they're light and they generally shoot really well.
I really enjoy my M1904/39 Portuguese Mauser, but scoping it is a bastard.

For the cost of the milsurps though, you can buy a brand new Ruger, Howa or Savage that is lighter, more comfortable, way more accurate and in readily available calibers.

[bladeracer]

I've always been a fan of old mosins and it all comes down to my own personal preference, and the main reason I want a Mosin is so I can look at it, clean it up shoot it maybe once every few months and to just say "I have a Mosin" I'm not looking for a mil surplus rifle to use every weekend, basically more or less a collectors piece, plus being a student with a part time job i don't really have massive budgets so cheaper rifles are what suits me at the moment, somewhere down the track I would love to have a collection of mausers, lithgows and Everything in between, but ever since I was a little kid I've always loved the Mosin, and I would love to get one and fix one up back to the prestigious commie rifle it once was

All perfectly sound reasons
Except for cost.
I don't consider the milsurps to be cheap, either to buy, own or shoot - even as a reloader.
The sheer pleasure of handling and shooting them makes them well worth the cost though for me.
If you truly want collector quality rifles then they're way more expensive. I prefer my milsurps to show what they've been subjected to.
If price is an issue then go with the new or secondhand modern rifles for regular use.

[juststarting]

Am I the only one who just doesn't like scoping anything milsurp that didn't come scoped? Like if it comes down to hunting, buy a modern Browning or Tikka or X... Frankly speaking, any old military surplus rifle is s**t compared to modern stuff. It's made to lower QA standards, it's heavy and cumbersome. But I suspect we don't buy surplus rifles for hunting. Not that you can't hunt with them. They are the just because guns for fun. And with that in mind, buy what feels right, not what shoots well (which is very subjective topic in itself, with a lot of variables).

[bladeracer]

I just called centreway and he said 28 bucks a box of 20, seems expensive but I suppose it's not a very popular round so what can you expect.

That's not bad, I got quoted $35/ 20 from the locals. That was Highland ammo though.

I agree, $28 is cheap for non-military ball ammo.

[bladeracer]

Am I the only one who just doesn't like scoping anything milsurp that didn't come scoped? Like if it comes down to hunting, buy a modern Browning or Tikka or X... Frankly speaking, any old military surplus rifle is s**t compared to modern stuff. It's made to lower QA standards, it's heavy and cumbersome. But I suspect we don't buy surplus rifles for hunting. Not that you can't hunt with them. They are the just because guns for fun. And with that in mind, buy what feels right, not what shoots well (which is very subjective topic in itself, with a lot of variables).

Agreed, scoping them does take away from the experience in my opinion.
But, if you're buying a milsurp as a regular shooting or hunting rifle then there's nothing wrong with scoping it.

[juststarting]

True, true.

[Bushie]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pbquj-6MVc

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a one in a million Mosin that is actually accurate but this one is incredible

[bladeracer]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pbquj-6MVc

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a one in a million Mosin that is actually accurate but this one is incredible

Incredible?
Have you done much shooting yet?
A full-size silhouette at 200yds is easy for just about anything, even handguns, air rifles and blackpowder rifles. Blackpowder smoothbores might struggle though. I would expect even a shotgun with slugs and sights should be able to hit it more times than it misses.

I think most good milsurps should be able to hold their shots within about 3-4" at 100yds, some can do better than that, some are way worse. My M38 and M1904/39 are both very good examples, better than the average I think. But I've owned two M38's and an M96 and they were all very accurate.

If you do get a misurp that doesn't shoot great, there are usually things you can do to improve it, but it's all time and money better spent on a modern rifle in my opinion.

[juststarting]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pbquj-6MVc

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a one in a million Mosin that is actually accurate but this one is incredible

They all shoot like this. As long as the shooter does their part. Any military surplus rifle will perform like that. The End!