Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by in2anity » 27 Feb 2017, 11:25 am

TheDude wrote:Home cast 525grain projectiles over 68 grains of 2F black powder


Nice :drinks: just curious, how do they print on targets? Nice neat little circles? Or are there ever signs of yawing?
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by TheDude » 27 Feb 2017, 12:06 pm

All good out to 300. Have only shot steel further than that.
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by Gamerancher » 27 Feb 2017, 1:53 pm

Fat (45 cal) heavy (500gr + ) slow moving ( sub 1500f/s M.V ) round nosed lead bullets retain stability like you wouldn't believe. We shoot these out to 1000+yards and it is very rare to see one keyhole a paper target. I shoot a .45-90 CPA Stevens that has a 1 in 18 twist barrel (tight by black-powder standards) and it is sometimes hard to find the holes as they go through so straight. B.C's on low velocity bullets are more in relation to the centre of gravity of the bullet rather than shape. Blunt "Creedmoor" style bullets with good diameter /length ratio have better B.C's than bullets with a long tapered nose/point.
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by in2anity » 28 Feb 2017, 8:11 am

Gamerancher wrote:Fat (45 cal) heavy (500gr + ) slow moving ( sub 1500f/s M.V ) round nosed lead bullets retain stability like you wouldn't believe. We shoot these out to 1000+yards and it is very rare to see one keyhole a paper target. I shoot a .45-90 CPA Stevens that has a 1 in 18 twist barrel (tight by black-powder standards) and it is sometimes hard to find the holes as they go through so straight. B.C's on low velocity bullets are more in relation to the centre of gravity of the bullet rather than shape. Blunt "Creedmoor" style bullets with good diameter /length ratio have better B.C's than bullets with a long tapered nose/point.


That's very interesting GR and makes total sense - explains how the 45/70 can be slow yet stable The .30 cal lead I'm using seems like a fairly long projectile; this coupled with the 1:10 twist on my Marlin (and the microgroove barrel) means it's probably not ideal for long range lead shooting :huh:
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by Gamerancher » 28 Feb 2017, 9:51 am

It's really a matter of momentum. Your 165gr bullet @ 1500 f/s MV has a lot less than my 565gr @ 1250f/s. There are a couple of blokes using .38/55's in BPCR silhouette, they shoot 330gr "money" bullets and they go alright out to 500m. Never seen one that holds up at 1000 but.
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by in2anity » 10 Mar 2017, 9:12 pm

Long range TK knob finally arrived-

IMG_5545.JPG
IMG_5545.JPG (1.46 MiB) Viewed 6087 times


that'll get me to 300 (and well beyond with power loads!)
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by Gamerancher » 11 Mar 2017, 8:01 am

As a "for instance" load/trajectory scenario, I load 170gr cast bullets in my .30/30's with 17gr of 2207 which is giving me a M.V of around 16/1700 f/s.
Shooting this load at lever action silhouette targets just using the standard barrel sights on a 20" barreled Winchester '94, I use the first notch for the chickens @ 50m, up one notch for pigs @ 100m, up another notch for turkeys @ 150m, up one more notch (top one) for 200m rams.
This load takes down the rams no problem which means it has more energy @ 200m than a .243W shooting 105gr bullets has @ 500m, as the .243W doesn't take down the same rams at that distance.
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by in2anity » 11 Mar 2017, 11:26 am

Gamerancher wrote:As a "for instance" load/trajectory scenario, I load 170gr cast bullets in my .30/30's with 17gr of 2207 which is giving me a M.V of around 16/1700 f/s.
Shooting this load at lever action silhouette targets just using the standard barrel sights on a 20" barreled Winchester '94, I use the first notch for the chickens @ 50m, up one notch for pigs @ 100m, up another notch for turkeys @ 150m, up one more notch (top one) for 200m rams.
This load takes down the rams no problem which means it has more energy @ 200m than a .243W shooting 105gr bullets has @ 500m, as the .243W doesn't take down the same rams at that distance.


When it comes to jacketed, pretty confident my Marlin also groups tightest with a heavier projectile. Although comparatively I haven't shot a lot of jacketed rounds through her.

Just curious gamerancher - for jacketed projectiles, why wouldn't you load up for your 30/30 for a flatter trajectory? Is it just for consistencie"s sake to stay at 17gr lead load? Is it a known fact that a reduced load is more accurate in a 30/30? (all my data suggests this)
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by Gamerancher » 11 Mar 2017, 1:10 pm

I only use the .30-30 for the lever gun silhouette, reduced loads are a lot more pleasant to shoot, especially at the end of a match when you've put around 100 shots down range for the day. Less recoil also tends to give me better accuracy as the rifle is not beating you up all day and your follow through is more consistent. These rifles only weigh 6 to 7 lbs. I shoot lead bullets as I cast my own which keeps the cost of shooting down to buggery.
With regards accuracy, you have to remember these rifles were designed around black-powder loading's ( velocities ) of the day.
As for the argument for flatter trajectory, I don't think going up three notches on a barrel sight from 50 to 200m is too bad. I can't remember off the top of my head how much it is with the Williams sights on the other ones. I had a mate bring his rifle out to the farm with factory rounds ( Federal) and was able to hit the 200m target at the fist notch on the standard sights.Sort of debunks the old theory that .30-30's are "only a 100 yard round".
I've watched and shot beside others who go with the "load her up and don't adjust" theory, let's just say I'm glad it's them and not me shooting their rifles. They also tend to be the ones with the rifles that break down or have to constantly be tightening action screws. ( Marlins are bad for this). Not having a dig at yours, just what happens on the line. Lever guns have lots of moving parts held together with small screws holding by just a couple of threads. They may have improved barrel steel to handle modern pressures but they're still built on the same basic action.
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by in2anity » 11 Mar 2017, 1:47 pm

Gamerancher wrote:I only use the .30-30 for the lever gun silhouette, reduced loads are a lot more pleasant to shoot, especially at the end of a match when you've put around 100 shots down range for the day. Less recoil also tends to give me better accuracy as the rifle is not beating you up all day and your follow through is more consistent. These rifles only weigh 6 to 7 lbs. I shoot lead bullets as I cast my own which keeps the cost of shooting down to buggery.
With regards accuracy, you have to remember these rifles were designed around black-powder loading's ( velocities ) of the day.
As for the argument for flatter trajectory, I don't think going up three notches on a barrel sight from 50 to 200m is too bad. I can't remember off the top of my head how much it is with the Williams sights on the other ones. I had a mate bring his rifle out to the farm with factory rounds ( Federal) and was able to hit the 200m target at the fist notch on the standard sights.Sort of debunks the old theory that .30-30's are "only a 100 yard round".
I've watched and shot beside others who go with the "load her up and don't adjust" theory, let's just say I'm glad it's them and not me shooting their rifles. They also tend to be the ones with the rifles that break down or have to constantly be tightening action screws. ( Marlins are bad for this). Not having a dig at yours, just what happens on the line. Lever guns have lots of moving parts held together with small screws holding by just a couple of threads. They may have improved barrel steel to handle modern pressures but they're still built on the same basic action.


No offense taken - it's true, my Marlin rattles itself apart when I shoot factory/hot loads. Now I shoot lead problem has all but gone away. Very interesting points indeed thanks GR. It'll be interesting to see how she goes at 300 (with the same load as OP) now that I have the elevation for it. I'll report back once I've tried it out.
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 18 Mar 2017, 5:20 pm

So.... this thread is now 2 pages long..... just wondering if anyone has suggested the 'ballistic arc'... is known as the 'trajectory'.... just sayyin.
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by in2anity » 18 Mar 2017, 10:19 pm

<<Genesis93>> wrote:So.... this thread is now 2 pages long..... just wondering if anyone has suggested the 'ballistic arc'... is known as the 'trajectory'.... just sayyin.


What's ur point? Bit hung up on terminology r we? K well done, gold star for u mr 23yr old :clap: I'll be sure to use Internet forum conforming words in the future, and waste my disposable income on "tactical" gear while I'm at it. These things are obviously much more important than actually enjoying and respectfully discussing real world shooting subjects. No doubt it'll make me a better marksman and person if I use perfect words... just sayinn
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 19 Mar 2017, 8:31 am

ok... so I 'sound' older than I am then??

Take it easy, you're getting yourself into a fizzle... :evil: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by in2anity » 19 Mar 2017, 9:53 am

<<Genesis93>> wrote:ok... so I 'sound' older than I am then??

Take it easy, you're getting yourself into a fizzle... :evil: :lol: :lol:


Ok let me spell it out for you mate; point is nobody cares - that's why nobody corrected it - terminology has nothing to do with the problem we are actually trying to solve here.

I see straight through you boy; you're a keyboard hunter. Go tinker with your little computers instead of trolling old threads about using incorrect grammar.
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 19 Mar 2017, 7:19 pm

fizzle....
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Re: Ballistic arc for slow 300yd shots

Post by in2anity » 17 Jun 2017, 5:04 pm

Bit of an update; I had access to the 300m line today to test my Marlin 30/30 with the new (extra long) Williams elevation screw. The difference between the 100m zero and 300m turned out to be a whopping 43 moa. So here'e the revised ballistic chart I came up with:

chart.jpg
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A lot of drop, but once I found zero, she was really throwing them in there! 8/8 shots landed on paper, and the first 5 were within 6-7 inches of each other (with iron sights!). She opened up after the first 5 as I was rushing (and the front sight rattled loose again at some point; I really need to locktite that down again):

300m.jpg
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And here's the finalized sights:

336W.JPG
336W.JPG (1.2 MiB) Viewed 2301 times


And a pic of the re-finished forend:

forend.jpg
forend.jpg (93.16 KiB) Viewed 2301 times


The forend section was sanded back to loosen up the rear barrel band. I then stained it with a Feast Watson Prooftint "Oak" stain (twice), followed by two coats of Feast Watson "Scandinavian Oil". The result as you can see is almost a perfect match. Loosening the rear band was a factor in obtaining that consistent 2moa accuracy.

Obviously a scope would be a lot more accurate, but that's just wrong on a lever-gun right? So who says a 30/30 is a 200yd rifle huh? :thumbsup:
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