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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Supaduke » 09 Mar 2017, 1:11 pm

Looks like a headspace issue to me. Need a shorter bolt head.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Supaduke » 09 Mar 2017, 3:20 pm

It does headspace off the rim , that's correct. However it looks like you don't have enough headspace and the cartridge is being forced into the rifling. Your bolthead probably needs to be set back, creating more headspace. Check that the rounds are within spec as well. Check the chamber doesn't have a build up of carbon or rust that is compressing the neck. 303's usually have a pretty generous chamber so it's unusual to not have enough clearance. You could also try using dental floss/o-ring/tape etc to set the cartridge back a bit and see if that has any effect.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Gamerancher » 09 Mar 2017, 3:59 pm

Headspacing on the rim requires the rim to fit flush to the back of the chamber and the bolt to hold it there. If the rim is not supported in the barrel/chamber you have excessive headspace, which is not good. The fact that you had to force the bolt to close and the deformation of the fired brass tells me you have a chamber other than .303 British.
Now that you have some fire-formed brass, I would carefully measure it, and reference it to case specification charts to see what that chamber may be.
Alternatively, strip the wood off and see if the barrel has been re-stamped/ replaced, indicating a new chambering. Re-chambering surplus military firearms to non-military chamberings was quite common and sometimes compulsory post war.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by No1Mk3 » 09 Mar 2017, 4:00 pm

G'day bentaz,
Cut a case in half and if the bolt closes OK on that don't bother with the bolt head. If it is just a bit tight on the half case lap the face of the current bolt head until it closes easy, (a proper gauge is best for this but a good case will do). After that, make a chamber cast, use cerrosafe or sulpher with 10% graphite as you may well have a "54", many of which would still take a standard 303. If it is 7.7x54, have a toolmaker take .050" of the bottom of a std die and trim the brass, Cheers.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Supaduke » 09 Mar 2017, 4:39 pm

TBH, I had not heard of the 7.7x54 round. Also known as a .303sport.

Could certainly be your issue. I have heard of excessive headspace on .303's , but not enough headspace certainly seemed very odd. I was wondering if the rim recess had been boggered out from excessive use. But your symptoms certainly point to a short chamber.

Certainly something for potential buyers to beware of.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Gamerancher » 09 Mar 2017, 5:10 pm

Looks like she's been shortened to me. It is supposed to stop you chambering the original, and only be able to chamber the "non-military" round. I'd have to dig deep in the library to find the "why & where & when".
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Mar 2017, 6:55 pm

I agree, chamber looks short. I would expect signs of high pressure.

Perhaps a chamber cast? Or

Pull the bullet and cut a few mm off a new case and check if it chambers ok
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Heckler303 » 09 Mar 2017, 6:57 pm

Hey Bentaz, check out a set of head-space gauges on the piratebay- *cough cough* I mean 'ebay' as well. NSW's oldschool laws prevented people from owning a .303 and similar military calibers unless granted under special permissions, so all they did was cut a single thread off, and wallah, you have almost the exact same rifle with the trouble of needing to trim every single case you put in it.

But hey, it isn't as bad as trying to reload for .303-22 :s
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Mar 2017, 7:42 pm

Some more historical info here on the 7.7x54.

thehunterslife.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-12002.html
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Mar 2017, 7:54 pm

" I wonder could i trim the brass to length, load and fireform and then just neck size for reloads after that?"

Seems to me that's right. Try it.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Gamerancher » 11 Mar 2017, 10:22 am

Problem solved. After you trim all of the cases for it I would mark then in some way, File a notch on the rim, engrave over the headstamp with a dremel or something similar, as they will still chamber and fire in a standard .303 chamber.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Heckler303 » 11 Mar 2017, 11:14 am

Loaded 180gn pill over 44gn of 2209.



:wtf: I'm not willing to load THAT far up man, jeez, that's a hot 30-06 load if you ask me.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 11 Mar 2017, 1:00 pm

Did you consider getting the chamber taken back to 303Brit spec??
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Heckler303 » 11 Mar 2017, 5:49 pm

bentaz wrote:44gn of 2209 was the starting load in the ADI manual for 180gn Sierra, i admit it will be slightly boosted due to the case being a few mm shorter, but everything i read about the x54 round said to use 303 load data.



If you want to drive it at a velocity to knock over a buffalo, sure. Just don't try it too much in a Lee Enfield action, P14 is better suited.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by TheDude » 11 Mar 2017, 8:29 pm

Heckler303 wrote:
Loaded 180gn pill over 44gn of 2209.



:wtf: I'm not willing to load THAT far up man, jeez, that's a hot 30-06 load if you ask me.


Sure you're not thinking 2206h? 44gr of 2209 is low pressure in a 180gr 303 and way below minimum for a 30-06
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by RoginaJack » 16 Mar 2017, 10:55 am

Many years ago, the only people permitted to "own" a .303 were farmers, professional fishermen or a member of a big bore rifle club. Now, when the armed forces adopted the 7.62 NATO round a lot of 303's came onto the market but the barrels were sleeved to 7.7x54mm or 303 sporter. The ex army 303 was "sporterized" or butchered with sporter forend fitted, stocks reworked etc.etc. Same goes for the ammo.
I'd suggest you may have a 7.7x54mm barrel fitted.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Gamerancher » 16 Mar 2017, 11:15 am

Have a look at the pics mate, it has the original barrel set back a thread or so to shorten the chamber. No longer .303 British, therefore legal at the time. Set of dies to "bump" the shoulder back, trim to length, load 'em up and you're in business
Why would you "sleeve" a barrel that is already that bore? Do you mean re-chambered? :unknown:
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 16 Mar 2017, 2:33 pm

the 'emasculating' of the nasty (grrrr) military 303British rifles to a nice civilian non-303British happy peoples 'gun' (aaaaahhhhh rainbows and lollipops) involved the removal of the barrel, lopping of exactly 2 threads of the chamber end, then refitting(with associated machining to refit....

The 303 'Sporting' is actually listed as a french (go figure) design/chambering....the case length is 52.82mm compared to the 303British at 56.44.... difference is 3.62mm.(hold that thought)

Thread pitch on the LE is 14TPI, so one thread is 25.4/14 = 1.81mm...... two thread would be 2 x 1.81 = 3.62mm ('unhold' the thought)

There you have it....the Frenchies not only dropped their rifles twice.... but they then picked OURS up, and made the awesome round..... a bit less awesome.. :unknown: :lol:

So did the 'Aussie castrati 303' correspond to this 2 thread mod, or just 1 thread, which would result with about the 54+mm length??
Last edited by <<Genesis93>> on 16 Mar 2017, 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Supaduke » 16 Mar 2017, 4:25 pm

Nah, girly seems fitting for a frenchie
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by RoginaJack » 16 Mar 2017, 5:37 pm

yeah mate, Rechambered.. :oops:

Actually the pics don't mean much unless your familiar with the stampings or have an original barrel to compare it to.

I'm surprised that the whole kit and kaboodle didn't blow up, forcing the round into the chamber enough to crimp the neck, must've added extra pressure before the projectile exited the case.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by Member-Deleted » 03 Sep 2017, 1:18 am

Just found this thread while casually browsing........I've owned two of these over the years, both lithgows', one a full wood, the other cut down. This was back in the late 70's/ early eighties, and both shot extremely well The full wood in particular was the most accurate Lithgow I've ever owned, but how much you can attribute to the modified case I would only be guessing. My P14 in 303 Epps shows similar accuracy traits. I recall using AR2201 and WIN 760 ball powder for both, and the reloading dies were readily available from simplex. Load data was basically the same as a standard 303, but I always used moderate loads for case life and accuracy. With everything made in China, it's good to see some Aussie innovation still around.

The rifles were both used successfully on Pigs, scrub cattle and Buffalo during my decade long stint in the top end, but the most fun was spent arguing with the army of armchair experts whose only knowledge of this calibre was from reading about it in some magazine once. I've just picked up another one for a dirt cheap price, so I'll see how I go getting this one to shoot with cast loads, as big game is non-existent where I live now. Long live Australian wildcats.
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Re: Possibly a 7.7x54?

Post by straightshooter » 03 Sep 2017, 7:13 am

In the 50's and 60's some states had a prohibition on owning a "303" rifle unless you were a member of a rifle club.
Since there were heaps of "303" rifles available many were sporterised to various degrees of quality.
The cheapest version was a 7.7x54 which didn't require any new parts and got around the prohibition.
It's not wise to fire a full length 303 round in that chamber as pressures will be excessive. Better to trim the brass to proper length first.
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