.22LR Rim Thickness

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.22LR Rim Thickness

Post by bladeracer » 10 May 2017, 7:51 pm

I've been wanting to do some rim thickness testing for a while.

I primarily wanted to see if it's possible to get much improvement out of some of the cheapest ammo.
So I bought three bricks of Remington Cyclone ($6 a box) and spent about four hours measuring rim thickness on 1000 rounds.
Thickness varies from 38-thou to 46-thou.
For comparison, 200rds of Eley Tenex all measure 38-thou - 100% of them, but they're five times the price of the Cyclone.

Remington Cyclone - 1000rds:
0.038" 30of (3%)
0.039" 87of (8.7%)
0.040" 265of (26.5%)
0.041" 287of (28.7%)
0.042" 224of (22.4%)
0.043" 43of (4.3%)
0.044" 35of (3.5%)
0.045" 20of (2%)
0.046" 9of (0.9%)

So, very roughly, more than half of them only vary by 0.001". Three-quarters of them vary by 0.002", and 90% vary by 0.004". The remaining 10% vary by as much as 0.008".

Although it was getting quite dark, the wind had died away completely, so I ran out, set up some targets and shot some initial groups at 50m off the bipod.
100520172234.jpg
100520172234.jpg (866.97 KiB) Viewed 8243 times


Bottom centre was just zeroing with the 41-thou, because they're the largest batch. Then I shot the top left and centre 10-rd groups with the same 41-thou batch (with a small scope adjustment between them). The second group is 41mm across, which is not bad for my Ruger with the Cyclones (the very best group I've managed with them is 68.2mm at 100m for 10rds).

Then the lower left 10-rd group with the 42-thou batch.

And finally, the upper right 9-rd group with the 46-thou, and lower right 10-rd group with the 38-thou. If you were to overlay the two right-side groups, that should be an indication of the worst case with unbatched ammo, although it was very dark by then which may have affected my grouping. The 38-thou group is 51.5mm, and the 46-thou is 61mm (or 44.5mm ignoring the extreme flyer). Interestingly, overlaying both still measures 61mm with the flyer (and 51.5mm without the flyer) meaning, if I'd fired all twenty rounds at the one target they would've dropped into the same size group anyway (even with the flyer).

I still have a brick left so I can top up them back up to 1000rds, and then I might have a look at batching the three main batches by weight as well.

I'm also curious if it might be possible to compress the rims so that all of them are 38-thou, and whether that might make any difference. Could be interesting doing that experiment :-)

This very preliminary test does seem to indicate some potential for improvement, possibly as much as reducing groups from 51mm down to 41mm. While that could be considered significant, it is offset by the expense of having to buy a lot of ammo, put in a lot of time batching it all, and then end up with perhaps 50-75% of it (at best) showing that much improvement. I'm inclined to simply spend a bit more for a more accurate munition.
Also, it may be significant that although the Cyclones are very cheap, they shoot quite well in my Ruger, better than average. I might have seen more improvement if I'd used something like the Sellier & Bellot Standard which is priced similarly, but shoots around 100mm at 100m. I don't particularly want to buy three bricks of ammo that I already know doesn't group particularly well in my rifle, but I may still do this anyway just for the experiment.

My initial conclusion is that I don't think the very early results warrant the effort involved. At least not with the Cyclones in my Ruger. The effort would be far more effectively put into shooting as many different ammo types as you can find. It would certainly cost more, but it would show real, and measurable, improvements.

Has anybody else done something similar?
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 10 May 2017, 9:54 pm

Has anybody else done something similar?

I'd like to say yes.....

But no.

Those rounds be some out-a-spec....

Spec (Max chamber) is 1.09mm -0.18
=0.91mm to 1.09mm
or in Imperialismist 0.0358 to 0.0429inch

Rim diameter is (spec/max) 7.06mm, so I vote you spend the rest of the evening measuring diameter.... maybe thats your problem there... :thumbsup:
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Bent Arrow » 10 May 2017, 10:12 pm

I've never spent much time measuring rim thickness, but I have tested the fit of a few flanges
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by GLS_1956 » 11 May 2017, 12:19 am

Interesting. I'm going to guess that "Match" ammo has more consistency in rim thickness.
I've been asked: "How many guns do you need to have?" My answer remains the same: "One more."
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by bladeracer » 11 May 2017, 2:35 am

<<Genesis93>> wrote:Has anybody else done something similar?

I'd like to say yes.....

But no.

Those rounds be some out-a-spec....

Spec (Max chamber) is 1.09mm -0.18
=0.91mm to 1.09mm
or in Imperialismist 0.0358 to 0.0429inch

Rim diameter is (spec/max) 7.06mm, so I vote you spend the rest of the evening measuring diameter.... maybe thats your problem there... :thumbsup:


Yes, 6.4% are over SAAMI spec, but still within chamber spec of 0.051".
I'm wondering how their consistency stacks up against other cheap ammo.

I haven't heard of anybody batching by rim diameter.
I did think of measuring bullet diameter but I can't see how to do so accurately due to the lube coating.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by bladeracer » 11 May 2017, 2:35 am

GLS_1956 wrote:Interesting. I'm going to guess that "Match" ammo has more consistency in rim thickness.


Yep, as I mentioned my Eley Tenex are 100% 38-thou rim thickness.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by vmaxaust » 11 May 2017, 6:46 am

I haven't heard of anybody batching by rim diameter.
I did think of measuring bullet diameter but I can't see how to do so accurately due to the lube coating.[/quote]


This sounds like a good idea. I use a Smith and Wesson Performance Centre Model 41 semi auto handgun in 22LR and it is definitely sensitive to different types of 22 ammo. I don't buy the expensive match grade ammo but I've tried the cheap Federal 525 value pack (1269 fps 36gr HP bullet), the Winchester bulk pack 555 (36gr HP 1270-1280 fps) and the CCI Mini Mag (40gr RN 1235 fps). What I found is that the Mini Mags are the least likely to misfire and in this gun are the most accurate.
I just checked thickness of rim in 20 of each...
Federal....040" to .045"
CCI.........039" to .041"
Win........037" to .041"
These are only small samples unlike yours but the most consistent is the CCI, second is the Win and the Federal is all over the place. In other words, of the 20 CCI's only 3 were at the outer ranges while the rest were right in mid spec. The same was true of the Win although 5 out of the 20 were on the outer range.
There is no question that the CCI is most accurate in my Ruger American Rimfire (18" barrel) as well as in the CZ452 I just sold. More important to me is the fact that the Federals misfired too often for my liking in all 3 of these firearms. The Mini Mags in the handgun may have one misfire in 500 shots and that is important in handgun competitions.
Your experiment is very interesting.

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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Chronos » 11 May 2017, 8:39 am

I used to use Federal Match ammo in my 64 actioned .22, sped a bit of time going through a brick of ammo sorting by rim thickness and batching them but found it made little or no oticable difference compared to shoting the ammo that shoots best in your gun.

for example I found the CCI segmented tip high velocity hunting ammo consistently shots like this in my gun at 50m, first shot then low then 4 into one jagged hole

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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Apollo » 11 May 2017, 10:02 am

I went about the process a little differently.

The tasks were to find the most accurate ammo for my rifle for two different reasons, one for general hunting (high velocity ammo) and the second for target use especially a 200 yard State Competition coming up back then. I did the same process as I have done in the past and obtained as many different types of each ammo to find which one was the most accurate for me at both 50 & 100 metres.

For high velocity it has always been the Winchester Power Points, the old version, not the new type in the black box. So when I run out I'll have to test all the current types.

For low velocity the best was Eley Black Box Match but extremely close was Lapua Centre-X which were substantially cheaper so I settled for those and bought a couple of bricks then sized the rims on all. I had about 4 main batches measuring to 0.005" increments, of those there was one main batch. Out of the 1,000 rounds batched I think from memory I had less than 50 that were the odd one's I used for fouling and/or rough setup shots.

Since the idea of rim thickness batching is to keep head space consistent the tests I have done showed me that I stopped getting that flyer that would muck the whole score up. I can't see any benefit in measuring rim diameter and/or how that would effect accuracy. Some target shooters have in the past sorted further by weight but most I know saw little benefit advantage so have stopped that process.

I believe for any of this to have any advantage especially considering the time it takes to batch ammo then you need to be working with the most accurate ammo you can find for your particular rifle in the first place.

I did try some standard velocity CCI which weren't all that flash in the first place and really showed no difference batching them by rim thickness other than the really wild flyer stopped happening.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Gwion » 11 May 2017, 2:53 pm

Tried sorting by rim-thickness and weight. I found more advantage in sorting by weight, personally, but that was probably because my method for measuring rims was somewhat lacking. I now have a "Waltz 22lr Accurizing Die". Sort by weight and run through the Waltz die and it will make cheap round nose bullets into hollow-points that shoot almost as well as the rifle's preferred hi-velocity ammo. It does this my making the bullet diameter consistent and sealing the bore consistently for every round. Doesn't work for every round/type. For instance, my t-bolt likes CCI Velocitors but run them through the die and it gets worse, not better. The good thing is i can turn the cheap Winchester bulk ammo through it when i am bored and make it shoot very close to the Velocitor accuracy with a perfect hollowpoint that expands very well every time.

I'd like to get some cheap sub-sonics and see how they go through the die.

If you count your time as money it doesn't stack up but if you are just using up down time it means i can shoot ammo that costs 1/3 the price and have the same performance, or better.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by bladeracer » 11 May 2017, 3:51 pm

vmaxaust wrote:This sounds like a good idea. I use a Smith and Wesson Performance Centre Model 41 semi auto handgun in 22LR and it is definitely sensitive to different types of 22 ammo. I don't buy the expensive match grade ammo but I've tried the cheap Federal 525 value pack (1269 fps 36gr HP bullet), the Winchester bulk pack 555 (36gr HP 1270-1280 fps) and the CCI Mini Mag (40gr RN 1235 fps). What I found is that the Mini Mags are the least likely to misfire and in this gun are the most accurate.
I just checked thickness of rim in 20 of each...
Federal....040" to .045"
CCI.........039" to .041"
Win........037" to .041"
These are only small samples unlike yours but the most consistent is the CCI, second is the Win and the Federal is all over the place. In other words, of the 20 CCI's only 3 were at the outer ranges while the rest were right in mid spec. The same was true of the Win although 5 out of the 20 were on the outer range.
There is no question that the CCI is most accurate in my Ruger American Rimfire (18" barrel) as well as in the CZ452 I just sold. More important to me is the fact that the Federals misfired too often for my liking in all 3 of these firearms. The Mini Mags in the handgun may have one misfire in 500 shots and that is important in handgun competitions.
Your experiment is very interesting.

Sam


Interesting that you have so many failures.
I've so far not a single light strike out of the 4000-odd rimfire rounds I've fired in the last few years, although I did have one MiniMag do a slow burn. That's with over thirty different types of ammo in my Ruger American, BSA Sportsman 5, Remington 510 and Cooey Ace-1.

But my brother's Anschutz 64MSR hates Eley Edge, constant light strikes, like maybe 30%. And it won't feed them from the ramp due to the flat nose, you have to insert each round into the chamber. All I can put the light strikes down to is that the extractor holds the rounds very tightly against the bolt face and the 38-thou rims travel forward maybe 10-thou while being retained by the extractor, greatly softening the striker hit. Next time I've got it down here I'll have a play with it.

In my Ruger American, the most accurate CCI is the Subsonic Segmented HP (not the Quiet). But Eley Edge is certainly the most consistently accurate that I've tried so far.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 11 May 2017, 10:24 pm

bladeracer wrote:
<<Genesis93>> wrote:Has anybody else done something similar?

I'd like to say yes.....

But no.

Those rounds be some out-a-spec....

Spec (Max chamber) is 1.09mm -0.18
=0.91mm to 1.09mm
or in Imperialismist 0.0358 to 0.0429inch

Rim diameter is (spec/max) 7.06mm, so I vote you spend the rest of the evening measuring diameter.... maybe thats your problem there... :thumbsup:


Yes, 6.4% are over SAAMI spec, but still within chamber spec of 0.051".
I'm wondering how their consistency stacks up against other cheap ammo.

I haven't heard of anybody batching by rim diameter.
I did think of measuring bullet diameter but I can't see how to do so accurately due to the lube coating.


Chamber spec is same, but minimum 1.09mm (0.0429in)
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Apollo » 11 May 2017, 11:21 pm

Just as a side line to sorting rimfire ammo.

How accurate do you think your rifle is at 200 Yards... I say yards because that is what competition shooting distance is.

This is with "Standard" and/or "Sub-Velocity" ammo. Say, 5 shots for a group... 25, 50, 75, 100 mm maybe 200 mm... ?? or worse.

My point is that this is what sorting Rimfire Ammo is about, consistent accuracy from this very fun calibre.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Gwion » 11 May 2017, 11:46 pm

With me shooting hi-velocity ammo from my t-bolt with the trigger as is I'm guessing my groups at 200yd would be about a meter! :lol:

At 50m i can pull as small as 0.4".
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Apollo » 12 May 2017, 12:01 am

Well, at least you are honest.... :thumbsup:

1965 Brno Model 2 stock standard. - Lapua Center-X ... One target was 5 shots under 75mm more like 60mm ... three targets just over 75mm. The last was a disaster when I picked up the wrong box of ammo about 125-150mm. 43 shooters, 40 of them were using very expensive custom rifles. The other two was my mate and his son using another Brno Model 2 but untested ammo and they came second last and last place.

One warmer target, 5 scoring targets ended up 14th place but 6th after the first 4 targets...

What a load of fun for 4-5 hours of competition shooting.

Wasn't even going to compete but it was a Centrefire 500m Fly Shoot the day before so why not stay and see what happened. The story as I was told by the experts is that in Rimfire you can Lead then Crash n Burn in minutes if you get it wrong. Practise at home helps heaps... poor little bunnies.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Gwion » 12 May 2017, 12:12 am

Sounds like fun. I'm keen to sort something out to practice 22lr out at 200 for f-class training but thinking I need a different rifle and set it up closer to what my fclass rifle is (or will be when I get a new stock for it).
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Apollo » 12 May 2017, 12:35 am

Gwion wrote:Sounds like fun. I'm keen to sort something out to practice 22lr out at 200 for f-class training but thinking I need a different rifle and set it up closer to what my fclass rifle is (or will be when I get a new stock for it).


It was a heap of fun, the main point was in Fly Shooting to hit the "Fly" in the middle of the target and win a "Cloth Patch" so, did that 3 times.

This is sorta not on topic but then it is because in my view the whole idea of this "Rim Thickness" measurements is for accuracy, consistantly and that's pretty much target shooting to set yourself for accuracy out in the world of varminting.. ie longer distant bunnies etc.

My mentor, Stuart Elliott (BRT) who over the years I have had some quite lengthy discussions over the phone has said in the past, to improve... be it F-Class, Full Bore and/or our 500m Fly Shoots was to get out and play seriously at like 200 Yards / Metres with a Rimfire and Wind Flags. Learn to read the conditions and adjust.

I know my Brno is accurate if I do the right job, it has many times put 5 shots all touching like in one hole at 50m but it's the longer range to calculate the conditions that is the training. Bit like centrefire, 100m is just too close so my testing is done at 200m and when I achieve that 5 shot 0.250" or less group then it's on song. Bit different at 500m when the training, mental attitude etc comes into count of how well you do.... 500m, 5 shots in 1.182" is the best I've done in my first National Comp. Off track sorry.

I have meant to go shoot F-Class with my many 6.5x47's but never got there.

Be it shooting rabbits in the head at longer distances or targets is what sorting and finding accurate rimfire ammo is all about ..then having the fun and satisfaction that all the effort was worth the end result.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by bladeracer » 12 May 2017, 3:04 am

Apollo wrote:Just as a side line to sorting rimfire ammo.

How accurate do you think your rifle is at 200 Yards... I say yards because that is what competition shooting distance is.

This is with "Standard" and/or "Sub-Velocity" ammo. Say, 5 shots for a group... 25, 50, 75, 100 mm maybe 200 mm... ?? or worse.

My point is that this is what sorting Rimfire Ammo is about, consistent accuracy from this very fun calibre.


About 120mm for 10rds at 200m is my best with the few different types I've tried. But I haven't done a great deal of 200m rimfire shooting yet.
Eley Edge is the best I've tried at 50m, 100m and 200m. Although it consistently stays around 35-40mm at 100m, the groups open up a lot to 200m. I need to put a lot more practice in, and I reckon dialing the scope to the range will greatly decrease cant. 1200mm holdover makes cant a real problem. I'll endeavour to find some time this weekend to put a few hundred rounds out to 200m.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by bladeracer » 12 May 2017, 3:07 am

<<Genesis93>> wrote:Chamber spec is same, but minimum 1.09mm (0.0429in)


Chamber spec is the same as what?
I believe my brother's Annie 64 has a match chamber so I'd like to take a cast of it next time he's down here and see how it compares to my Ruger.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by bladeracer » 12 May 2017, 3:12 am

Apollo wrote:Well, at least you are honest.... :thumbsup:

1965 Brno Model 2 stock standard. - Lapua Center-X ... One target was 5 shots under 75mm more like 60mm ... three targets just over 75mm. The last was a disaster when I picked up the wrong box of ammo about 125-150mm. 43 shooters, 40 of them were using very expensive custom rifles. The other two was my mate and his son using another Brno Model 2 but untested ammo and they came second last and last place.

One warmer target, 5 scoring targets ended up 14th place but 6th after the first 4 targets...

What a load of fun for 4-5 hours of competition shooting.

Wasn't even going to compete but it was a Centrefire 500m Fly Shoot the day before so why not stay and see what happened. The story as I was told by the experts is that in Rimfire you can Lead then Crash n Burn in minutes if you get it wrong. Practise at home helps heaps... poor little bunnies.


What size bull are you aiming at at 200m?
Is the target available online at all?
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by bladeracer » 12 May 2017, 4:54 am

Gwion wrote:Sounds like fun. I'm keen to sort something out to practice 22lr out at 200 for f-class training but thinking I need a different rifle and set it up closer to what my fclass rifle is (or will be when I get a new stock for it).



A little while ago I put a few hours into finding a .22LR round that somewhat follows a centrefire trajectory at scaled-down ranges.

22LR MiniMag and 7mm-08 160gn 2370fps Trajectory Comparison .jpg
22LR MiniMag and 7mm-08 160gn 2370fps Trajectory Comparison .jpg (108.1 KiB) Viewed 7317 times


Basically, if I set out a range with half-sized targets every 50m out to 500m, the hold-overs with CCI MiniMags are very close to shooting 7mm-08 160gn SP at 2370fps - but at double the ranges. Out to 325m the .22LR is virtually identical to the 7mm-08 at 650m. Although wind drift is not as close, it's not too far out.

The minor drawback is that in my Ruger the MiniMag's are only good for 3MoA out to 100m, and I haven't tried them any further than that yet. At half-scale though, 1.5MoA is easily good enough for long-range hunting practice.

I'll have to run similar numbers with the Eley Edge and see what I can come up with :-)
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by vmaxaust » 12 May 2017, 6:09 am

Interesting that you have so many failures.

Well this has been consistently occurring with the Federal ammo in all the 22 rifles I've owned in the last 3-4 years...Browning BL lever, Savage MKII, CZ452 and the Smith and Wesson 41 handgun. I don't remember but I doubt I have tried too much if any of that ammo in the Ruger American. That rifle is fairly new.
The Winchester 555 rounds see the misfires occurring much less frequently in all those rifles and handgun and the CCI almost never. It's for that reason I use the Win and CCI only. Not interested in match accuracy with the more expensive stuff. I shoot the 22 for fun and not to win competitions so I'm not hung up on the absolute most accuracy, to me the misfires are the bain of shooting 22's.
To that end I balance the cost of 22 ammo I use to its reliability of fire.
If anyone has any other suggestions for high velocity medium to lower cost bulk ammo brand and type that is not prone to misfires please let me know.

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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by bladeracer » 12 May 2017, 6:28 am

vmaxaust wrote:Well this has been consistently occurring with the Federal ammo in all the 22 rifles I've owned in the last 3-4 years...Browning BL lever, Savage MKII, CZ452 and the Smith and Wesson 41 handgun. I don't remember but I doubt I have tried too much if any of that ammo in the Ruger American. That rifle is fairly new.
The Winchester 555 rounds see the misfires occurring much less frequently in all those rifles and handgun and the CCI almost never. It's for that reason I use the Win and CCI only. Not interested in match accuracy with the more expensive stuff. I shoot the 22 for fun and not to win competitions so I'm not hung up on the absolute most accuracy, to me the misfires are the bain of shooting 22's.
To that end I balance the cost of 22 ammo I use to its reliability of fire.
If anyone has any other suggestions for high velocity medium to lower cost bulk ammo brand and type that is not prone to misfires please let me know.

Sam


I think you'll find the misfires are due to the firearm, not the ammo.
Other than a single MiniMag, I've had no misfires with any of the cheapest ammunition in any of my rifles - Remington Cyclone, Highland RX HP and RN, Sellier & Bellot Standard, CCI Standard Velocity, Federal American Eagle 38gn HP, CCI MiniMag HP, CCI Subsonic and Winchester T-22 are the cheapest I've tried so far and should all be under $10/50rds. I haven't tried any of the bulk stuff because I didn't want to be lumbered with hundreds of rounds of ammo that might not shoot very well.
The absolute cheapest I can get currently is the 1400-rd Bucket of Bullets at $5/50.
But two years ago I picked up two bricks of Highland RX RN on special for $3.40/50.

I would certainly try a lot more than just three types before deciding on which of those is most reliable.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Gwion » 12 May 2017, 7:40 am

If I had the spare cash i'd get a Lithgow, fit it with a 20moa rail, drop it in the same stock as my 7-08 and use the same scope. Would be great for practice. Thinking of adding a monthly Rimfire F-class to the fixture for next club season. I reckon it would be great practice and good starting point for new members.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Apollo » 12 May 2017, 7:48 am

bladeracer wrote:What size bull are you aiming at at 200m?
Is the target available online at all?


Don't think I ever found a proper target online, here's a bit of info if you can do the metric conversion. It's not actually a "bull" in that sense but the Fly is roughly half the size or less of the 10 Ring which is 1.8" or about 45.7mm. The tricky part is the Orange colour on a Yellow background in less than idea conditions.

http://www.angelfire.com/bc/mbrclub/FlyShoot.html
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Gwion » 12 May 2017, 7:58 am

Haha.
I like rule #10: any competitor found not enjoying themselves will be disqualified.
:lol:
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by Apollo » 12 May 2017, 8:04 am

Gwion wrote:Haha.
I like rule #10: any competitor found not enjoying themselves will be disqualified.
:lol:


There's been a few that come very close to breaking that rule when they find out that they have missed the target completely.
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Re: .22LR Rim Thickness

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 12 May 2017, 1:15 pm

bladeracer wrote:
<<Genesis93>> wrote:Chamber spec is same, but minimum 1.09mm (0.0429in)


Chamber spec is the same as what?
I believe my brother's Annie 64 has a match chamber so I'd like to take a cast of it next time he's down here and see how it compares to my Ruger.



Chamber spec is same, but minimum 1.09mm....

as in
Cartridge spec is a MAX dimension - 1.09
Chamber spec is a MIN dimension - 1.09

So a MAX sized round will fit a minimum sized /tight chamber(or bolt face)...not that thats a concern with a rimfire boltface.

More significant would be the other measurements, cartridge width to chamber width...
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