Norma Brass

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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Cooper » 26 Jun 2017, 10:01 pm

I only just worked out you get an extra case (1 extra piece of brass) per pack of Norma brass. Only had three packets to check and were 100 packs. Maybe it's different for 50 packs. But now I have 101 pieces to fit in my 100 ammo case.
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by juststarting » 26 Jun 2017, 10:34 pm

Cooper wrote:I only just worked out you get an extra case (1 extra piece of brass) per pack of Norma brass. Only had three packets to check and were 100 packs. Maybe it's different for 50 packs. But now I have 101 pieces to fit in my 100 ammo case.


I've noticed the same thing for a couple of calibers with Norma packs.
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Member-Deleted » 01 Jul 2017, 7:33 pm

G'day juststarting

I hope that is the case of 1 extra case for 100 pack
Recieved my 25-06 100 pack of norma the other day and the first 20, one was dented bad enough i couldn't use it
I don't think it's a norma fault more so a transit handling fault,even so they do look to be a cut above the other brass
I've been using .

cheers
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Member-Deleted » 30 Aug 2017, 10:42 am

Well been there and done that, I 've been running the norma brass now for about 1mth and got it back to full load and shooting .3moa
exactly where it was when i spoke earlier in this forum on norma brass
There was no visible signs of any difference between the rem and norma brass only that the norma brass sealed better around the neck when fired
it didn't let gases back along the neck to leave soot along the length of the neck
The norma brass was left rather clean after firing
Also i found that the primer sockets were a better,tighter fit than the rem brass
So all in all the norma brass turned out excellent thanks for the info one and all

My next question though would be',' how often would you suggest annealing the necks'' ?
I've never really had a need to do so always had plenty of brass on hand but the old 25-06 brass has been a trifle hard to get so don't want to get
caught out and annealing looks like the way to go to get a bit more out of them
Although i've been getting about 5-8 loadings with my other rifles with rem and win brass
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by bladeracer » 30 Aug 2017, 2:48 pm

sungazer wrote:if you are using the brass in the same rifle and only neck size, there are some very knowledgeable people who say annealing is not required. Then there are other that would say for the same parameters that every 3-5 firings and annealing should be done. Then there are others that have expensive machines that they are either selling or those that have bought them and they would say after every firing.


The brass work hardens every time you size it so eventually it will require annealing regardless of FLS or neck sizing. You fire the cartridge which stretches the neck out to fit the wall of the chamber. Then you compress it undersize to grip a bullet. Then you seat a bullet which stretches it out a little again. Every time you do this you are stretching and compressing that strip of brass by one or two percent of its length. Eventually when it blows opens to fit the chamber it will no longer stretch so it will split. It might happen after firing it five times or fifty times depending on a list of variables.
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by bladeracer » 30 Aug 2017, 5:11 pm

sungazer wrote:I know the process and like I say some very knowledgeable people including at least 1 long time gun smith to the precision shooters industry read benchrest and F class would disagree. I am only passing on information no need to try and argue the point with me. In fact this topic was recently brought up on ozFclass so have a look over there and you can argue with some of the countries top shooters.
In my custom guns the amount the neck size changes is next to negligible. There is no feel when resizing and I often wonder if it has changed. The neck opens only enough to release the projectile.


I'm not arguing with you :-)
In a custom F-Class chamber there would be less stretching of the brass, but I assume we're talking here about general firearms. They often also have very light grip on the bullet, which we wouldn't want in magazine-fed rifles.
And I would also expect precision shooters probably replace their brass long before they'd see any splitting anyway, or are you suggesting they go hundreds of loads with no annealing and no splitting on their brass?
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Gwion » 31 Aug 2017, 2:35 am

It's not about a "good" chamber or a bad one. It is weather or not the chamber is reamed to match custom specs. Many custom chambers are reamed for turned necks to have as little a one thou clearance on a turned neck. In these instances and when neck sizing with a collet die, the brass would undergo very little work.
People who speak in absolutes about weather annealing is necessary are not taking in the whole story. I don't care how much 'experience' they have. In their application, with their gear, they may not find it necessary but there is no question that in many cases, annealing is definitely required if you don't want to replace brass all the time. I've had Remington brass fail at the neck on the 7th firing, or there abouts, in my 223 and that was neck sized from day one.
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by marksman » 31 Aug 2017, 8:41 am

Gwion wrote:
I'd be willing to bet that a direct swap over load will no longer shoot the 1/2MOA you are currently getting. Might still be under a minute but I'd say there will be a difference. Depends how fussy you want to be. I can get very fussy indeed! :lol:


I agree
IMO any change to the recipe needs to be worked up again, or at least tested cautiously
norma brass is consistent but a bit soft I have found it gets a bit loose in the primer pockets quicker than some others with the same loads
I use it in 308 and 30-06
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Gwion » 31 Aug 2017, 9:27 am

You're getting the good accuracy but is it the same load as you were using with your old brass or is the charge and other specs slightly different?
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Member-Deleted » 31 Aug 2017, 3:57 pm

Yeah mate its exactly the same load as before, quiet surprising i thought maybe 1/2gr here 1/2gn there but no exactly the same
Also i dropped it back 2gr and worked it back up to 51gr of AR 2209 for 3232fps AV got 30fps difference between shots of 8
I'm also fussy maybe too much so in my honest opinion if i can't get a rifle to shoot .7 i don't use it for my work i sell it so how fussy is that
Not a skite just a fussy old bastard who likes to kill with one shot where possible if i don't then its not the rifles fault and then i know what to fix
When i first bought the 25-06 i wasn't impressed couldn't get it to shoot until i found out it wouldn't shoot 110-120gr accurately but since using
100gr and new glass it is lethal i use it more for dogs than my 22-250 now mainly because i don't have to get too close and risk loosing them
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Gwion » 31 Aug 2017, 4:00 pm

Nice one. Interesting that new brass has exactly the same load! I would have done my dosh on a bet for that one.
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Member-Deleted » 31 Aug 2017, 4:03 pm

Marksman what type of loads are you putting in them are they light or hot ?
I run 1gr over max in the adi book But will keep an eye on it

Thanks
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Member-Deleted » 31 Aug 2017, 4:08 pm

Well Gwion don't feel too bad i only measured it with a 6'' rule it may have been a couple of thou '' lol''
But in all honesty i to was expecting a difference in load
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Member-Deleted » 01 Sep 2017, 1:13 pm

So boys back to the question to anneal or not to and how often ?
I'm not a benchrest shooter so that doesn't come into my question
All my rifles are standard not custom
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by bladeracer » 01 Sep 2017, 2:03 pm

grandadbushy wrote:So boys back to the question to anneal or not to and how often ?
I'm not a benchrest shooter so that doesn't come into my question
All my rifles are standard not custom


How often you have to trim your brass might be an indication of how hard the brass is being worked.
If you have to trim it every time then I would think annealing is likely to be required sooner than brass that only needs trimming every third or fifth load.

For me, I don't generally push my loads to the limit so my brass lasts very well. If I buy 100 cases and can get twenty loads or more out of them before they start splitting, that's 2000 rounds before I need to consider annealing. At which point I would more likely just buy new brass and relegate the old brass to low-velocity loads. If I'm loading for ten rifles that's 20,000 rounds before I need to replace all my brass.

But if I were pushing hard and trimming for every load then I would expect to need annealing after maybe five loads. Certainly soon enough that it'd be worth loading three rounds and shooting them over and over until they split so you know what to expect for case life. I know some precision shooters prefer to anneal the brass for every load, not to extend case life, but to ensure neck tension is exactly the same for every single shot they fire. Neck tension is one of those variables that changes every time you reload the case.
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Member-Deleted » 01 Sep 2017, 2:24 pm

Thanks Bladeracer with the rem brass i was getting about 3-5 loadings to 1 trimming even then i only took a skim off
So maybe it will be similar with the norma brass although i have 5 cases i used for load developement that have been fired 6-7 times and haven't
had to be trimmed as yet so will see how many shots it takes before trimming
So i think i'll work on your ideas for now

Cheers
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by marksman » 01 Sep 2017, 3:15 pm

grandadbushy wrote:Marksman what type of loads are you putting in them are they light or hot ?
I run 1gr over max in the adi book But will keep an eye on it

Thanks


I use quickload to help find my max load so it could be over book max,
I'm using 60.5 grains of 2209 with a 168 gr projectile in my 30-06
no pressure signs at 2890 fps
quickload says this is at 58228 psi, well under max of 60000 psi
norma is good brass but I get better primer pocket life with winchester cases

I should also say that I am used to getting up to 20 firings per case and with the norma I am probably getting 8-9 before I start seeing primer pockets growing
I anneal about every 5-6 firings, I have found when you start to feel a pressure difference when seating bullet to bullet it is time to anneal
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Member-Deleted » 01 Sep 2017, 7:29 pm

Were the loads the same with different brass ?
Looking at that your aboit the same as me about 1gr over max in the ADI book
Doesn't sound good for norma brass but i will try all things big and small and try and get a bit more out of the 25-06 brass

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Re: Norma Brass

Post by marksman » 01 Sep 2017, 8:02 pm

yes the loads were the same, I suppose it is a load that works, really thinking about it I don't think 8-9 reloads is to bad its just that I spend so much time doing prep on the brass to try and get them as identical as can be done that I don't like having to throw them for a loose primer pocket before they are really worn out,
I have in the past used norma hornet brass to make 17 ackley cases and had the same problem
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Tiger650 » 01 Sep 2017, 8:48 pm

For sure load with the same charge and look at primers/ base of case first off for excessive pressure and then tune load as necessary if pressures seem high or if accuracy falls off.
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Tiger650 » 01 Sep 2017, 9:00 pm

For sure load with the same charge and look at primers/ base of case first off for excessive pressure and then tune load as necessary if pressures seem high or if accuracy falls off.
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Member-Deleted » 02 Sep 2017, 6:04 am

N0 marksman you're probably right because i had a batch of rem cases in 22-250 that i used to load @ 31.6gr bench mark 2 with 55gr projectile
and i started getting loose primer sockets at about 8-9 loadings now 31.6 is an accuracy load for me well below adi max
So i'm not sure what caused it because all the rest from another bag went on to about 15-20 loadings without socket expansion ,i had a mate anneal them at about
10-11 loadings but he's not here any more as he has moved

I'm a bit like you i'm very fussy with ammo because i like to hit what i aim at i can't afford to have bad shots on wild dogs because they're tough and if the shot is not in the right spot they will get away although they probably will die but thats not me i like to kill instant no suffering for the animal
But in saying that its impossible to get every shot to do that but i try to get as many as i can

My mrs say's i go overboard with my fussiness sometimes but i don't think you can put too much effort into your ammo so as to try and make it perfect
As you said 8-9 loadings is not too bad its just that i've had a little trouble getting brass so this is why the norma thing has started its all i could get at the time
but i think i will stick with them because they do look like good brass a lot better finish than the rem brass i had
Anyway mate here's hoping they last

Cheers
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Gwion » 02 Sep 2017, 7:33 am

Can't say for sure but it I had the facility to anneal I would be doing so after 3-4 loadings.
An annealing set up is yet another one of those things on the long list of "when I can afford it".
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by bigfellascott » 02 Sep 2017, 8:49 am

grandadbushy wrote:N0 marksman you're probably right because i had a batch of rem cases in 22-250 that i used to load @ 31.6gr bench mark 2 with 55gr projectile
and i started getting loose primer sockets at about 8-9 loadings now 31.6 is an accuracy load for me well below adi max
So i'm not sure what caused it because all the rest from another bag went on to about 15-20 loadings without socket expansion ,i had a mate anneal them at about
10-11 loadings but he's not here any more as he has moved

I'm a bit like you i'm very fussy with ammo because i like to hit what i aim at i can't afford to have bad shots on wild dogs because they're tough and if the shot is not in the right spot they will get away although they probably will die but thats not me i like to kill instant no suffering for the animal
But in saying that its impossible to get every shot to do that but i try to get as many as i can

My mrs say's i go overboard with my fussiness sometimes but i don't think you can put too much effort into your ammo so as to try and make it perfect
As you said 8-9 loadings is not too bad its just that i've had a little trouble getting brass so this is why the norma thing has started its all i could get at the time
but i think i will stick with them because they do look like good brass a lot better finish than the rem brass i had
Anyway mate here's hoping they last

Cheers


They are called Primer Pockets GDB, not primer sockets :D (not having a go at you by the way mate) :thumbsup:
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Re: Norma Brass

Post by Member-Deleted » 02 Sep 2017, 2:05 pm

Pocket, socket, fock it
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