Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Improving and repairing firearms. Rifle bedding, barrel work, stock replacement and other ways to improve your firearms.

Re: stoked

Post by marksman » 21 Dec 2017, 3:12 pm

your are right about the primers, the problem after examination was the thickness of the primer cup that was supposed to be 25 thou but was 20 thou
I was using rem 7.5 small rifle that are supposed to be the 25 thou, maybe a mix up as the 6.5's small rifle are supposed to be 20 thou cup thickness
anyway the problem is fixed as I changed to cci br and 450 small primers,
blanked / cookie cut primers only happen with small rifle primers for those who dont know

and yes santa is on the ball :drinks: , I wont be shooting it for xmas as I am fireforming with shotgun powder and wax first, I will be after though
it gives me time to bed and blue touch ups :thumbsup:

you would not believe how many visitors I have had today :violin:

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Re: stoked

Post by sungazer » 21 Dec 2017, 4:39 pm

I haven't had that problem yet with small primers but am using them in a few calibres. I use the BR4 if that makes any difference. I would be interested to see any pics of the problem ones and what you think caused the issue. As you know my only issue so far with primers not going off due to a sensitive headspace, perhaps low protrusion firing pin and certainly a lot less energy in the firing pin. The low energy is good for target the rifle doesn't move when firing as compared to the hard hitting Rem 700 which you can clearly see a movement when dryfiring no matter how stable the rifle. But the primers go off.
I must stress so do the others if you use once fired or more cases that fit the chamber.
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Re: stoked

Post by Apollo » 21 Dec 2017, 5:30 pm

CCI BR4 & 450 are one of the one's that have the thickest primer cups. The common belief is that both are the same but the BR4 is the select batch version and more consistent with each one in the batch made.

Most times when you see a Pierced Primer there is a large creator ring around the firing pin indentation.

Another calibre that is likely to have problems is the .204 Ruger and warnings of not using Federal 200 Primers as their cup thickness is just 0.019".

CCI BR4, 450 and Remington 7 1/2 (BR) are the thickest at 0.025" cup thickness.

Most all Large Rifle Primers are the same cup thickness of 0.027". Other dimensions like diameter and height do vary between brands.

One source of information....been around for a long, long time.

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php
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Re: stoked

Post by bigfellascott » 21 Dec 2017, 9:50 pm

So hows it shoot, getting the results you expected from it?
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Re: stoked

Post by marksman » 22 Dec 2017, 6:03 pm

Apollo is exactly right in what he has said about the primers, I had trouble because the rem 7.5"s I was using in a 6mm dasher were not the 25 thou they are supposed to be, as I said earlier I think there was a mix up at the factory,
I did have a look at other things that can cause this problem eg:I had put a speed lock kit in the bolt and thought maybe the firing pin spring was not suited,
I tried the cci br4's and 450's and have not had a problem since, and that is why I dissected some rem 7.5 primers to see if they were what they were supposed to be, I also knew as I was fireforming I was not at high pressure

here is a photo I kept of primers that blanked/cookie cut
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there are different brands in the photo that show the hole differently, you can see the one with a perfectly punched hole which is why it is called a cookie cutter
that primer is shows a bit of flattening because it is a thinner cup that I tried at the time, the others still have radius showing good headspace fireforming wasn't an overload

today I went and fireformed for this 22 dasher, some might think it is a boring mongrel of a job but I just think it's another part of it
in this photo is a 6mm br case ready to have the false shoulder made and fireformed and one of the 22 dasher cases I formed today using shotgun powder and soap as a plug, honestly it will all be worth it in the end :drinks:
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so no scott I still haven't actually shot it :cry:
I am still waiting for a scope I have bought for it and some rings and a picatinni rail
I also still have to bed the action and touch up the blueing where I have shaped the tang to suit the stock

oh well soon be christmass :clap:
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Re: stoked

Post by sungazer » 22 Dec 2017, 7:02 pm

I have only fire formed cases that are just new for the chamber and dont really need much adjustment so normal loads type of thing. What is the shotgun powder, how is it different? and the wax or soap plugs give enough resistance that the case shapes to the chamber? obviously

Ill bet your glad the rifles safety features worked and you didnt have a bolt fly back in your face or part there of.
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Re: stoked

Post by Apollo » 22 Dec 2017, 10:49 pm

All those primers in the photo seem to be Remington or is there another brand that has copper coated looking primes. Certainly not CCI's.

Boy, I hate fire forming cases to a strange custom size. What a waste of barrel life. Luck has it the only one I am really doing is 220 Russian to 6mm PPC which I have a specific old worn barrel that was given to me to use. A few dollars to my Gunsmith to make it the same as my Match Barrel.

The only knowledge of a Dasher I have is the mates that shoot 500 Fly and the best trick there is to get someone to Hydro Size and just go shoot competition.

In 6mm at 500 Metres there is BR and Dasher, who wins or is better is a toss up of skills as each seem to win as many shoots. I'm doing a 6mmBR to see how it rates compared to my 6.5x47L with my old skills which are going down hill fast... Old age stinks.

I can see that the rifle is not a Benchrest so sorry if I'm off track with the degree of accuracy required.

I hope your Bolt Face hasn't suffered any damage from pitting. Don't worry about coping gas in the face and no for others the bolt will not come flying back but the biggest worry is the damage to the bolt face.
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Re: stoked

Post by marksman » 24 Dec 2017, 12:19 pm

Apollo none of these primers were cci :thumbsup:

depending on your point of view fireforming is either a time consuming, tedious process or an interesting exersize, needless to say the latter applies to me
the plus with bullet-less fireforming is the cost saving - no special hydro-forming dies, no bullets, less powder and more importantly "no wear on your barrel"
its a lot less work and a lot less messy than hydro-forming I think, IMO you get a much better shoulder to start with as well
the new norma dasher cases would be cheaper and easier too but I had my reamer body made to blue box dimensions so I'm not sure if it would work
obviously you don't let your barrel heat up and I cleaned out the fowling every 10 shot's, you should try it, it does work well :thumbsup:
the smell of the soap plug all around the farmers paddock was like walking past a chinese knock shop :drinks:
not that I would know :allegedly: :lol: :lol:

when a primer blanks you don't have the same effect that you do when a primer leaks, it is the firing pin hole and firing pin that cop the flame
as you can see my 6mm dasher bolt face is perfect just like it left the gunsmith's after he machined it to perfection and no gases at my face
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this rifle with a second hand 8x32 nightforce br scope will cost all up, everything $2500, I cannot tell you how accurate it is going to be
I know it will not be as accurate as James Philips record set at 1.174" at 600 yards with a 22 dasher, the best ever verified group ever shot at 600 yards in registered benchrest shooting http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek030.html and that is on a rem action
what I expect from this rifle is to be able to head shoot rabbits at 250-300 and I will be very happy with it and call it a success :drinks:
really I could have gone and bought a tikka/sako varmint to do the same but I like building these rifles, its a fetish my wife calls my mistress :unknown:

I forgot to add Apollo that when I found the right amount of powder there was no blow back on the case length,
all fireformed cases needed trimming to the exact length and the primer pockets are as tight as new :drinks:
Last edited by marksman on 24 Dec 2017, 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: stoked

Post by marksman » 24 Dec 2017, 12:37 pm

sungazer wrote:I have only fire formed cases that are just new for the chamber and dont really need much adjustment so normal loads type of thing. What is the shotgun powder, how is it different? and the wax or soap plugs give enough resistance that the case shapes to the chamber? obviously

Ill bet your glad the rifles safety features worked and you didnt have a bolt fly back in your face or part there of.


there is no resistance from wax/soap at all sungazer the soap plug is only to hold the powder in the case :thumbsup:
and to make the farmers paddock smell like a chinese knock shop :drinks:
I made a false shoulder on the neck 6mm br case to 22 cal, but the false shoulder has to be what the case is headspaced off or it wont work
when making the false shoulder you have to take out your firing pin and have a definite crush fit when closing the bolt
you have basically done the same with your problem by jamming the projectile stopping the case movement
if I did not make the false shoulder with a crush fit the case would just be pushed forward without firing or if it did fire could be very dangerous
even without a bullet :thumbsdown:
the fireforming I am talking about is to change the shape of the original case into a completely different usually wildcat one
fireforming to your chamber is to fit the case to your chamber
the shotgun powder use is because it burns a lot faster, you cannot use this powder with a bullet :thumbsdown:
here is a photo of the process while building up to the right amount of powder to the finished loaded 22 dasher round
the second case is the false shoulder that the case is headspaced on :thumbsup:
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Re: stoked

Post by sungazer » 24 Dec 2017, 5:15 pm

Thanks for that, bits of the information I knew but you have filled in the gaps with the whole process. I should be able to tell if it really does smell like a Chinese knock shop too having to have gone to several in Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and China all for being polite as a guest on business just karaoke nothing naughty. :allegedly:

I did neck down a 308 Palma brass to fit the 243 just for s**ts a giggles works a treat but too hard to justify any saving or improvement in performance.
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 30 Dec 2017, 10:30 am

still waiting for the scope, rings and picatinni rail so I thought I'd bed the rifle while I'm waiting
I love that smell of real walnut when you are grinding it out
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with mausers I like to bed the tang and the recoil lug area separately
there is no benefit to doing a full bedding job on a mauser
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I already pillared the tang but I like to bed it as well
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I usually only use devcon to bed rifles but don't have any at the time so I used JB weld
I have used it on other peoples rifles before with great success but its a bit sloppy to use
so I let it go off a bit before putting it in
I still have to finish cleaning it up but there is no movement when testing, a perfect fit
cant wait for the rest of the gear to turn up but getting there :thumbsup:
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 03 Jan 2018, 9:02 pm

getting closer
I fitted a highscore single shot follower
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an EWG picatinny rail
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fitted and lapped the new leupold rings
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no stress
still waiting for the scope but getting closer :drinks:
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 06 Jan 2018, 11:16 am

bloody scope is lost/missing in transit :thumbsdown:

what a let down :wtf:
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by sungazer » 06 Jan 2018, 11:23 am

s**t mate that stinks. I am watching your build and waiting and looking for each update. Really interested in how it will shoot. I really expect pretty well.
I have to say though that I am not keen on the 22 cal to a point of hating it when it comes time to clean it. The bloody rods have to be so small they flex font have strength to push very hard. The patches have to be so critical in size to get good contact not stuck but not loose. They give me the s**ts.
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 25 Jan 2018, 12:58 pm

so my scope is still lost by Australia post :unknown:
now twice believe it or not :unknown: :lol: :lol:
on the day that the insurance was to be claimed they recon they found it and started to send it back to the sender although it was found in the town 10 klm's from me :unknown: then its gone missing again :thumbsdown: I don't know whether I believe them :shock:

anyway I got sick of the waiting and put a scope off another rifle on so I could fire my first angry shot
I have no data at all to reload this case so I was just experimenting and hoping not to blow the rifle up trying to find where the pressures started
I sighted in with a max 22br load and went 5% over the max with no casehead expansion at all so I know I can go further
while doing this pressure test I also did a ladder test and think I have a node that can be explored further with an OCW test
I am doing the tests at the moment with speer 55gr sp as this is a rabbit/fox rifle expected to accurately shoot out to 300
although I do have some 80gr bergers I will do a load with to have a play at 700 with
here's a photo that shows oal at touch new chamber

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and heres one of the rifle setup on my new Oldblokes bench, thanks Olbloke :drinks:

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I probably should say as well there was no running in, after sighting in with 4 shots I cleaned the bore and shot 16 more shots
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by sungazer » 25 Jan 2018, 2:46 pm

Good to see you giving a go. That Aus post is just a debacle. I did read an article somewhere were a barrel manufacturer claims a customer ruined a barrel fire forming just using primers or something. I will have to have a google and look for that.

As for groups have a look at this. http://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/shooting/148511 This was shot target rifle which is hand held prone. He is an excellent shooter as you can see by the result and deservingly so he is on the Australian Team that starts shooting in New Zealand this week, they arrived NZ today. He wind coached me yesterday. :) :drinks:
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by Stix » 25 Jan 2018, 6:30 pm

Im excited for you marksman...

It is however a worry to see the estwing hanging on the triton though...its obviously not for scope adjustments... :lol:
They are good persuader's for sure, but i prefer the rubber handle.

Keen to see some results...
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 28 Jan 2018, 7:47 pm

sungazer wrote:Good to see you giving a go. That Aus post is just a debacle. I did read an article somewhere were a barrel manufacturer claims a customer ruined a barrel fire forming just using primers or something. I will have to have a google and look for that.

As for groups have a look at this. http://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/shooting/148511 This was shot target rifle which is hand held prone. He is an excellent shooter as you can see by the result and deservingly so he is on the Australian Team that starts shooting in New Zealand this week, they arrived NZ today. He wind coached me yesterday. :) :drinks:


sungazer yes the Australia post is a very sad thing I hope to talk them into handing over the insurance money tomorrow :wtf:
it's only been 35 days since it was sent, 30 days since it was lost the first time and 11 days since it went missing this time :o :thumbsdown:
but moving on I would be very interested in seeing the article you spoke about fireforming from the barrel maker :thumbsup:
you are very lucky to have the opportunity to have someone with this experience to wind coach you, David Blacks target shows he is a champion
that is where you see the truth, is the target :drinks: and you can learn a sh@t ton from the experienced :drinks:

I'm really exited about this rifle myself Stix and the triton and estwing are for bad rifle's that don't do as there told :lol: :lol: :lol:
I do have a blue rubber handle estwing as well just in case :drinks: the Americans make a good persuader :thumbsup:
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