R700 Lug Rub (outer)

[FoxSpotter]

I finally investigated contact wear marks of the right Lug of a rem700 b series that was supposed to be trued.

Most notable are three lines.

Can be seen on both the bolt and 3 threads in the action .

See pics.


I humbly assume...

A.
The action threads are point downwards...making the rear of the threads...bolt side, high.

B.
This may prevent the nose of the bolt from lowering when the rear of the bolt is pushed up by the trigger sear etc..

So.
Maybe this all works out for the best?

However... I suspect this might be costing me a bit of accuracy

A slight wearing can be felt on the lug...little grooves where it's contacting.

[FoxSpotter]

https://youtu.be/qObTSPjNG0s?si=0YXG8AFiAGYtWPcB

Awkward YouTube footage of ..The Rub

[Wapiti]

Trued?
I assume that the outside surface of one locking lug is contacting the inside of the action threads. Or am I looking at the pics wrong? Or why in the vid, you concentrated so much on those threads with your mirror?
Was another barrel fitted, or is this a "cleaned up" stock barrel?

[FoxSpotter]

Yes...out lug has marks...and the pic inside shows the threads of the action where the lugs rubs on them.
It's a custom barrel...and..the action was paid to be trued.

The barrel itself should not be an issue..unless perhaps the nose of the bolt is contacting the barrel...I hadn't considered this...and don't think it's an issue.

I just wonder how unconcentric the bolt raceway and or the action threads are for this to happen.

And wonder what the effect of this contact might be..

Thanks for your interest.

[deye243]

How does it shoot

[Wapiti]

OK mate, I'm NOT a gunsmith, but I've seen some TERRIBLE work from gunsmiths down on the coast...
My trade and my own stubborn demand that I do the best I can in my own expectation makes me quite keen in the eye though.
Chambering a rifle barrel and cutting the action thread is not a challenging task for a skilled machinist... scary first time though I'll admit.

OK, with that, I've dismantled and rebarrelled Rem 700's of my own, and used barrel blanks from MAB then TSE up here, and from the clearances inbuilt into that design, the ONLY way I can see that a locking lug on a Rem 700 bolt could ever touch the interior action threads is if the "trued" action threads, meaning supposedly cleaned up to the true centreline of the action, were done offset to the bolt raceway centreline.
\
Now that is only going to happen from a bodgy machinist job set-up. Or the apprentice. If there is such a thing in Australia anymore.

If some goose was to thread a new barrel offset, forcing the nose of the bolt sideways into the side of the action, that may also be the case but when closing the bolt it would really "feel" this happening.
The nose of the bolt would then also show wear on it, but I can't see that being the issue myself.

[FoxSpotter]

I don't really want to ..but...I think I'd best contact the company....they are busy and often slow to respond...and I don't like to seem troublesome....however..i did pay for truing..and the threads seem to be well off centre..thus the rub...
I always wondered how I'd know if the action was actually trued...how could one possibly tell....

[Wapiti]

I actually think that, if my explanation is what's happened, that action is now buggered.
But hey, I can't see the rifle so I may be wrong for sure.
As I said, if the barrel could be removed, the action stripped and both set up, clocked completely on centreline, the real culprit will be obvious by running dial indicators over both individually and the action thread pitch be accurately measured and also checked for on-centre.

I think the contact with the threads needs to be addressed though, it won't help with a nice, straight recoil path and therefore the most consistency in the rifle's performance.

If the rifle shoots OK, and it will be completely safe anyway, the only way to stop the contact from the lug against the action threads would be to disassemble the bolt, put it in a 4-jaw and skim a few thou off the outside of the lugs to stop the contact. And re-blue.
This will not in any way, take material off that makes the lock-up any weaker.

[FoxSpotter]

I've contacted the company that apparently tried the action.
.I suspect I'll be selectively ignored...as it's a hair ball...on one hand...bad work or no work done...on the other they should fix it.

The rifle shoots ok...but..should be better...I expected more....but.its adequate. A problem the rifle has had is shift of poi...which might be me..with a poor zero adjustment.re wind...
It's been bedded..fat redoild lug.mfree float...should be no poi shift.(And maybe there wasn't..just me?

[FoxSpotter]

...and ...skim a bit off...problem solved... maybe..but...not the source of the problem.

I noticed on another r700 both a slight wear marl onnoutosee of lug...I dared not further investigate

[FoxSpotter]

https://youtu.be/eEDOPSJzzuQ?si=n_UeOLxoIzRZfHnd


Second video of the rubs...including bolt nose rub at bottom..on bottom half

[Wapiti]

...and ...skim a bit off...problem solved... maybe..but...not the source of the problem.

I noticed on another r700 both a slight wear marl onnoutosee of lug...I dared not further investigate

Mate, I'm a R700 fan, and have had many of these rifles, and still do. As have mates of mine who'll pay that little bit extra for a great working rifle.
I've never seen locking lugs or a bolt nose that misaligned to rub on the inside of the action, on anything.
You gotta PM me who's done that work.

[straightshooter]

Despite the poor photography it seems fairly apparent that the bore in the barrel is offset in relation to the central axis of the barrel.
I come to that conclusion because I doubt whether a receiver with that amount of offset would have left the factory
From the rub marks on the bolt nose one can see that the chamber counterbore is forcing the bolt into alignment far enough to cause the rub marks on the lug.
If the rifle shoots acceptably then stop whingeing.
If it doesn't then a new barrel is required, fitted and chambered by somebody who is a bit more diligent than whoever did your current barrel.
How about giving the receiver internals a good clean. Looks pretty grubby to me.

[FoxSpotter]

It's a custom barrel and action should be trued.
It's shoots "ok"...I am a bit whinging...but I've had a custom barrel on an untrued 788 that shoots much much better, ...and seems apparent to me it hasn't been trued.
I do expect and require fine longer range a curacy for work...so...I like to maximise rifle accuracy

[FoxSpotter]

@straightshooter, I'm more inclined to think that the bolt is poorly aligned to the action threads/action face and is rubbing on the internal action threads.

Sorry for the poor photography.
May make a clearer video and post on YouTube.
I'm surprised it could leave the factory in that way too. B series rem 700.

[FoxSpotter]

Hopefully this pic shows the rub lines.
They can be felt with a finger.
Lower / rhs lug.

[bigrich]

hmmm, there's a few things looking not right with this rifle . i'd find another gunsmith . i had some really poor, dodgy, dangerous work from a smith/barrel maker up my way . i won't touch anything they've worked on or a rifle with one of their barrels . i have a 1980 build rem 700 i had rebarreled with a madco barrel in 222 that's fantastic . i also ordered a new rem 700 in 270 a few years ago . supposed to be built under the new ruger management, but i suspect it was old stock from the previous company . it had a very obvious line in the stock where the machine spraying the stock stain had run out . fair enough, that's cosmetic , but still, you pay for a new CDL rem you expect a quality gun . the gun shot just okay , had slight marking like your bolt lugs but not as bad . the big telling mark was the "half moon" on the bolt face . only half of the cartridge contacted the bolt face . barrel and chamber weren't true to the receiver and bolt face , I wasn't happy . tried to get it fixed under warranty, but the supplier to the gun shop wasn't interested . sold it and swore i wouldn't buy a new remington again . i'd happily buy a older one and build what i want though . i'd get another smith to check your rifle , as it seems things aren't true and aligned as they should be

[FoxSpotter]

I am planning on sending back when I receive another rem 700 from them that is to be trued and all from them. And perhaps once I've finished shooting loaded ammo. What will happen then is a mystery. I may well pull the barrel and measure the tenon for indication that it has been trued...I suspect they haven't touched it.
Sorry to hear of your story about your cdl

[Wapiti]

If you can pull the barrel FoxSpotter, can you set both up in a lathe individually? 4-jaw chuck, no 3-jaw. Clocked dead straight off centre and then run an indicator inside the chamber to check centre is .0000? At the same time, check the barrel shoulder is also square to centreline?
I would also get the muzzle end true sticking out of the headstock with a spider and a ground stud slipped in the bore to run the indicator on back there as well.
You might not see any indication of machining prior, because the barrel bottoming on the receiver will make it's own contact marks from bottoming against the receiver.

Hopefully they used neverseize paste or similar on the threads to minimise contact marks.

The receiver too, although to check square it must be set up on the inner bolt raceway, not from the external.

You will find something is nasty here, a bolt lug touching one side only is an error somewhere. The numbers won't lie.

[Wapiti]

hey Foxspotter, I ran through the thread, but I didn't pick up whether the action/barrel before this new barrel was put on was doing this then? Or only after the new barrel and true'ing?

[FoxSpotter]

https://youtu.be/aBgBVo7JMB4?si=HxcgBzGva4x3l-L3

My new video ... hopefully of better quality than previous...but still...my action has not been sanitised...even saw a hair in there .

Red texta can be seen on the receiver threads.
Uneven bolt lug contact was found...upper lug well shiny, lower lug hardly touching.
May further investigate outer/side bolt nose rubbing..perhaps on the barrel...

Thanks for ideas.
Trued
Not Trued
Salvageable?

There seems to be even wear on the bolt face.

[Fester]

Not good enough, is it.

A bloke can just buy a Howa and get a shooter, despite the slightly uneven wear marks on bolt lugs and stuff.

If you pay big money to get re-barrel jobs done, you expect top toolmaker-type machining quality; it's why you paid the big bucks. You could have just bought a Howa otherwise.

[FoxSpotter]

Not good enough indeed.
If it wasn't trued they could've told me and refunded me.
If it was trued..it looks terible with bits touching that shouldn't be.
It shoots well...but...have had zero move and it doesn't shoot as well as a trued action with a custom barrel should.

[Wapiti]

Not good enough, is it.

A bloke can just buy a Howa and get a shooter, despite the slightly uneven wear marks on bolt lugs and stuff.

If you pay big money to get re-barrel jobs done, you expect top toolmaker-type machining quality; it's why you paid the big bucks. You could have just bought a Howa otherwise.

Mate, there's plenty of Howas that don't pass the good enough test either.

From the numbers of Rems I've had, compared to Howas, I've never had an issue with factory Rems but both a 243 and 308 Howa I have here have both been very sub par. Don't judge too quick mate,
especially seeing as this issue really looks like it was created when work was done later.

[straightshooter]

The new video makes it pretty clear and confirms that the problem is that the barrel threads are not concentric with the chamber.
In earlier posts you mentioned that accuracy wasn't as good as you had hoped for but didn't mentioned a number.
If it was my rifle and it wasn't used for some form of competition or for professional shooting I would simply use it until goes right off. In a 17 Rem that starts to happen at about 2000 rounds.
Now if you can't sleep with worry then a possible fix would be take a smidgen off the barrel shoulder such that the maximum high point of the bolt nose rub ends up at 6 o'clock thus pushing the upper lug into better contact with it's abutment. It will need a chamber touch up and cost $'s but without any guarantee of improvement.
Poor upper lug contact is a perennial problem with actions that use an overide trigger, that is when the bolt is cocked the trigger pushes the cocking piece and thus the bolt up and in the process the upper lug pivots away from firm symmetrical contact with the upper abutment.
I also noted in the video that your action looks to have the usual R700 dodgy primary extraction.

[FoxSpotter]

It is purpose built for professional fox shooting.

Thanks for your response.

Am approaching 788 rem 17 rechamber..but..last check..was still shooting!

[Wapiti]

Sorry to see that's the problem FoxSpotter. I knew it would have to be off centre somewhere and with the barrel change, it seemed obvious as that was theonly thing that would change.
I'd really like to see how much it is threaded off-centre to the bore/chamber by sticking 50mm or so of the barrel out of the chuck, indicating inside the chamber and getting it spot-on, then see how far out the treads are.
I'd bet they just stuck it in a 3-jaw (inaccurate anyway) and cutting the threads off that, but I cannot understand that, even if they used a 4-jaw I bet they dialed it in off the barrel external. Absolutely amateur shocking work, unforgiveable.
If it really is off-centre to the barrel threads, it's cactus. there will not be enough length in the Knox form / reinforce to cut off the threaded section and rechamber most likely, but you may be lucky there if it's a real heavy barrel. That is the answer if that's the case.
I get the bore centre exactly dialled in (both ends) then chamber and cut the threads/relief/shoulder square at the same time. EVERYTHING is done off the bore centreline.

Very sorry to hear that issue mate.
Remington 700's are awesome actions to make as tackdrivers, even the much maligned extractor is strong as an ox, only those grinding axes say otherwise, repeating internet dribble. certainly not anyone who does any real gunsmithing work. They are also dreams to set up straight and square, unlike many others.

[FoxSpotter]

It's a full bull barrel.
I don't know how I the bolt is angled downward and touch action threads , how a straight chamber may work.
The bolt face seems to contacting evenly.

Not relieving enough for the bolt nose is odd...maybe the whole bolt is lower in the receiver? But then...it would be lower than the chamber a bit too??....golly.

[FoxSpotter]

I'm really suspecting they didn't true at all and didn't notice the bolt problem....ie..the nose touching the barrel at 6 o'clock and the 6 o'clock bolt rub.

[Wapiti]

Mate, when it's set up true in a 4-jaw or a special multi-jaw collet-type chuck and you run the indicator over it all, you willl know where the fault is exactly but if you don't/can't do that yourself, that answer will cost you more money and won't fix the problem.
Don't forget to true the muzzle end out the headstock end too. (bore not outside).

Hey it is fixable, if you have a good length or full diameter left of the reinforce, depends on where the barrel starts to taper.
The threaded section needs to be cut off, leaving just the shoulder (to face dead square again).
Being a 204 ?? that small diameter case gives you some leeway too.

It's quite simple really and that's not being a smart arse - if the barrel is set up on the bore centreline both ends .0000, which is not hard at all, the threads are parted off and all the steps are done in this condition - threading, facing the shoulder, and rechambering correctly, the barrel is back in business.
Hopefully the chamber hasn't been cut off-centre as well or the whole chamber section needs to go, making the whole thing even shorter but you can only do this if you have enough diameter and support back there.

If someone "Trued" the action, hopefully the clowns had it set up using a perfect-fit mandrel in the bolt raceway to set it up and clock off, because if they didn't it won't be right. And chasing threads is best left to someone who really knows what they are doing, no rip, tear, bust to meet a quote here, no way.

The bolt face contact - mate when you fire the cartridge the case head will deform flat against the bolt face no matter how cockeyed it is, and the marks can make you think it has full, square contact. You just will never know until, again, you set up the receiver and run an indicator over it.
Again, the rush-artists will just set up the receiver on the external - on the R700 it's all too easy - and that's wrong.