Stoked with .22 Dasher build

[marksman]

so my scope is still lost by Australia post
now twice believe it or not
on the day that the insurance was to be claimed they recon they found it and started to send it back to the sender although it was found in the town 10 klm's from me then its gone missing again I don't know whether I believe them

anyway I got sick of the waiting and put a scope off another rifle on so I could fire my first angry shot
I have no data at all to reload this case so I was just experimenting and hoping not to blow the rifle up trying to find where the pressures started
I sighted in with a max 22br load and went 5% over the max with no casehead expansion at all so I know I can go further
while doing this pressure test I also did a ladder test and think I have a node that can be explored further with an OCW test
I am doing the tests at the moment with speer 55gr sp as this is a rabbit/fox rifle expected to accurately shoot out to 300
although I do have some 80gr bergers I will do a load with to have a play at 700 with
here's a photo that shows oal at touch new chamber



and heres one of the rifle setup on my new Oldblokes bench, thanks Olbloke



I probably should say as well there was no running in, after sighting in with 4 shots I cleaned the bore and shot 16 more shots

[sungazer]

Good to see you giving a go. That Aus post is just a debacle. I did read an article somewhere were a barrel manufacturer claims a customer ruined a barrel fire forming just using primers or something. I will have to have a google and look for that.

As for groups have a look at this. http://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/shooting/148511 This was shot target rifle which is hand held prone. He is an excellent shooter as you can see by the result and deservingly so he is on the Australian Team that starts shooting in New Zealand this week, they arrived NZ today. He wind coached me yesterday.

[Stix]

Im excited for you marksman...

It is however a worry to see the estwing hanging on the triton though...its obviously not for scope adjustments...
They are good persuader's for sure, but i prefer the rubber handle.

Keen to see some results...

[marksman]

Good to see you giving a go. That Aus post is just a debacle. I did read an article somewhere were a barrel manufacturer claims a customer ruined a barrel fire forming just using primers or something. I will have to have a google and look for that.

As for groups have a look at this. http://shooting.hexsystems.com.au/shooting/148511 This was shot target rifle which is hand held prone. He is an excellent shooter as you can see by the result and deservingly so he is on the Australian Team that starts shooting in New Zealand this week, they arrived NZ today. He wind coached me yesterday.

sungazer yes the Australia post is a very sad thing I hope to talk them into handing over the insurance money tomorrow
it's only been 35 days since it was sent, 30 days since it was lost the first time and 11 days since it went missing this time
but moving on I would be very interested in seeing the article you spoke about fireforming from the barrel maker
you are very lucky to have the opportunity to have someone with this experience to wind coach you, David Blacks target shows he is a champion
that is where you see the truth, is the target and you can learn a sh@t ton from the experienced

I'm really exited about this rifle myself Stix and the triton and estwing are for bad rifle's that don't do as there told
I do have a blue rubber handle estwing as well just in case the Americans make a good persuader

[Stix]

Yes that they do...

Maybe ill try that saw & hammer intimidation trick next time...
Usually i just threaten to hurl them out in the paddock, but they've learned to call my bluff...

On a serious note, that aust post story is abhorrent...ive had, & know of people who have had similar...in fact i had a verbal blurt on a recent post about them...

I hope you get sense out of them mate...it is really beyond all common sense our leaders allow this rubbish to go on...
Aust Post has gone from one of the best enterprises in the country to one of the worst in my book.

[marksman]

this rifle has sort of gone off the boil a bit for me after Australia post lost my scope twice and they gave me hell on earth trying to get the insurance out of them
I ended up having to go to the postal ombudsman to get past there call centre who called me and the seller a fraud
anyway the postal ombudsman got past the call centre and Australia post have sincerely apologised to me and have accepted they lost my scope that was insured by them and they have sent me a money order that I haven't received as of yet LOL

moving on
I did a ladder test while testing pressure and came up with what I thought would be a good area to further test
firstly I now had fire-formed cases so I checked the average volume,
this may or may not be of interest but i thought I would share the results for those who weigh there cases
I weigh the empty case then weigh them filled with water, the water weight is the volume
empty case with water water weight
125.1gr 166gr =40.9gr
125gr 166gr =41gr
125.3gr 166.4gr =41.1gr
125.6gr 166.7gr =41.1gr
127gr 167.8gr =40.8gr
=204.9gr
divided by 5 =40.98gr average weight of volume

as you can see although the empty cases are different in weight the volume is very similar, makes you think about how you check volume

so with the info I had I sorted out an OCW test and the results at 120 are



this gives me more information now and I will be trying to squeeze a bit more out of this rifle

[sungazer]

Are thy all at the same length? I have done a few ladder tests and Im not so convinced of there validity. I know there are some very knowledgeable people that swear by them. I just have not had the same results. I have had groups size change by seating depth. Rifle (stock) design rest bipod, rear bag, rifle hold, calibre and technique all have more to do with the shooting than the powder until I prove otherwise. I am not giving up learning and listening to people though.
What do you mean re your volume remarks?

[Stix]

Australia post...once the pride of this country...now one of its embarrassments...
Ive great empathy for you marksman, its a joke in this day & age that we have to use the ombudsman for even basic matters...
Hope you get your cash & scope soon.

As for the weight/volume test on brass...
Well i never--im almost a (reluctant) convert...such a smaller difference in volume compared to weight...!

So a couple of silly questions...
1) obviously spent primer is left in for volume test...?
2) do you bother to clean the carbon from inside cases at all before the volume test...?

[Stix]

So marksman, getting into the stastical data of the volume of those cases, thats an ES of .3gr, & an SD of .1gr.
(Dont ask me why i worked that out).

[marksman]

Are thy all at the same length? I have done a few ladder tests and Im not so convinced of there validity. I know there are some very knowledgeable people that swear by them. I just have not had the same results. I have had groups size change by seating depth. Rifle (stock) design rest bipod, rear bag, rifle hold, calibre and technique all have more to do with the shooting than the powder until I prove otherwise. I am not giving up learning and listening to people though.
What do you mean re your volume remarks?

the main thing with a ladder test is you and your rifle have to be able to do your part or your results wont be reliable
I think you are pretty knowledgeable to understand what will change your group sizes
what I have learnt by weighing the empty cases and then filling them with water and weighing how much water is held is to get the case internal volume
that showed that although the case weights were not the same the internal volume was fairly good compared to the other cases
the internal volume is fairly consistent although the case weights are not

the OCW test I did was a volume test, the test loads were all the same length, just the amount of powder changed
next I will test OAL and neck tension to look for a better result, or scrap the projectile and go for a much better one
this test was done with a 20 thou jam

[sungazer]

Thanks for your explanation. I have only done the volume test once and I would have to go looking for the results or more so the hard data.
In our club there are a few guys that have new barrels and with the season approaching there is quite a bit of load development going on. Trying to get loads that have SD of 4 looking at all the sources of error in the measuring equipment and in your load. Quite a few thinkers at the club so it is interesting to be part of it.

[marksman]

Australia post...once the pride of this country...now one of its embarrassments...
Ive great empathy for you marksman, its a joke in this day & age that we have to use the ombudsman for even basic matters...
Hope you get your cash & scope soon.

As for the weight/volume test on brass...
Well i never--im almost a (reluctant) convert...such a smaller difference in volume compared to weight...!

So a couple of silly questions...
1) obviously spent primer is left in for volume test...?
2) do you bother to clean the carbon from inside cases at all before the volume test...?

getting the volume is way way better than case weight, that one I learnt from reading Nick Harvey's reloading column a long time ago
yes leave in the spent primer
I don't clean out the carbon as the cases are once fired and just fireformed

[marksman]

I have completed an over all length test from using one of the group loads off the OCW test and the results are
shot at 120 yards



I'm not 100% happy with this load and am going to try a different powder and better projectile
the #1 is 20 thou off #2 is 10 thou off #3 is just touching and #4 is 20 thou jam
the #3 is screaming at an average of 2900 fps but the es is around 30,
I really don't like to have the projectile just touching as you will be always chasing the lands, I like to either jump or jam
checking concentricity of the loaded rounds the smith did a great job making up the dies for me from my reamer

[Wm.Traynor]

Numbers 2 and 3 both have excellent elevation

But won't you always be "chasing the lands" if you are using overall length as one of the parameters? Asking out of Ignorance to be brutally honest. I have never had to employ these measures to find an accurate load.

[marksman]

when you just touch the lands it only takes a touch to be off the lands especially if your projectile ogive is a bit inconsistent in form
the difference in pressure from touch is around 7200 psi higher than when not touching,
so the chase game is on if you are just touching trying to keep the projectile just touching
the reason why a jump or jam is better IMO, trying to eliminate flyers and inconsistency
I'm not sure if I have explained that properly, I hope i have

[Wm.Traynor]

Are you using Extra Low Drag pills, Marksman? I understand why you would jam the cartridge in the post above thanks mate

[marksman]

no they are not extra low drag pills
the rifle is for shooting rabbits and foxes so I have used garden variety speer 55gr flat base sp because about 10 years ago I bought a 1000 of them and they did not work in the 22 cal centerfire rifles I have so was hoping to get a really good result with them
I suppose for what they are they are doing ok
and will kill a rabbit I recon if I can hit one with them

[Stix]

What makes you want to change both powder AND projectile...?

One ir two BR shooters have told me to NOT worry about getting accurate load data until a min of 100 rounds down a barrel...
What is your opinion of this theory ...?

[marksman]

if I was to make a change it is going to be a good one, there isn't much or no data available for this round so I am trying different things
I have read that my knew powder is a very good one for the 22 br so I am trying it, the powder I have tried was a surplus powder I have heaps of
I had this rifle built around cases, powder and projectiles

I watch how the barrel is fouling and if it has settled down before I look for accuracy
a factory barrel may take up to 200 shots with throat polishing or fire lapping before it comes good, it depends on the barrel
a well made hand lapped match barrel I find is good to go after 20 shots,
it may not need running in to get rid of the burrs left from reaming and crowning but I like to put at least 20 down a good barrel first
the target doesn't tell lie's

I should say as well I have seen tikka barrels good after 6 shots

[marksman]

so I have been playing with the 22 dasher again
I changed the pill to a sierra 60gr hp and moved onto a slower powder
this is the OCW test results

this is the seating depth test

and this is a reworked load from this test

as you can see measured from outside to outside is 9.5mm
I have tried some 55gr nosler ballistic tips and got very similar results
I am going to test some 55gr zombie max (Amax) as well in the future
but all in all I don't mind the sierra 60 gr results
next is to give the rifle a good go at rabbits

[marksman]

as I haven't been active lately with an injury to my back I hadn't finished the testing of this rifle but I have tested the 55gr zombie-max and here is the result from 120



and here on the left is a 10 shot group of the #7 test group with 2 fliers, groups are 10 shots without cooling barrel down,
the group on the right is #6 from the test



anyway this will be the finish for this rifle as the zombie-max are plenty good enough for what I want
and I'm very pleased with the rifle

[Stix]

Cool...!!
Hey marksman...can i ask some questions... (?)

* what seating depth do you use for the ocw tests--such as in the targets in your post on the 24th of March...?

*what different increments do you shoot with the seating depth test.?

*in your latest post testing the z-max (actually are they 'Z' or 'A' max?)
I assume thats an ocw test ?--if so, im curious to know the charge increment jump you used.

Sorry im painful...dont have to answer...im just curious for learnings sake...

[marksman]

ok, not painful at all Stix

*the seating depth for the ocw was 10 thou off touch for the 24th march test

*I used 10 thou increments on the oal test for that pill, the 60 gr sierra because it is a small length pill but say for a 30 cal pill would use 20 thou increments for an oal test and may fine tune test after that

*in the latest post yes that is an ocw maxed out at 34gr of powder, the charge increment jump was .4 of a grain
I use this for most cases to show clocking and big differences that may be worth exploring further
that test showed a definite ocw, and no need for fine tuning IMO
the smaller z-max projectile's are rebranded vmax the larger eg... 30 cal 168gr z-max are rebranded a-max

IMO you can be as basic or difficult as you want to be with this type of thing
I do a hell of a lot more than some but nowhere near as much as some
this was not an easy one to load for as there is no data available so it was try it out but beware of pressure
the hardest thing I have found is to figure out your max load for anything you reload,
then I foul the barrel and try it out in big enough increments where you will see a pattern, the ocw
some work straight away some you need to try something else, there is nothing written in stone
sometimes there is no straight answer, it can be a real bast@rd, sometimes

[marksman]

around 12 months on from when I started this project and I was out today finally to test the 80gr bergers that came with the second hand barrel I bought and had fitted for this very old mauser 98 varmint rifle
I have to say the rifle really likes these projectiles and does not seem to be fussy with them at all,
I have no references to load data for this wildcat cartridge at all and have used quickload to try and figure out where to start but more importantly where to stop, I had no pressure signs with what I tested but need to chrony to tweek the quickload extrapolation,
I really dont think I have to I'm happy with these results,
the difference from start to finish is 2 grains of powder and the target shows very similar clocking from the start to finish
this OCW target from today was shot at 200 yards with bad mirage so I'm very sure the rifle will shoot this projectile much better in better conditions and out to much further distances



considering that this build cost under $2500 in total, including, rifle, dies, barrel, scope, mounts, cases, gunsmith work and a few other bits I am very happy with the results and I can see it likes the 80gr bergers more than anything else
I have shot quite a few rabbits and roos with it using the 55gr zmax that I worked a load up for but I will try the 80gr projectiles for culling roo's on tags
very happy

[bigfellascott]

Looking good mate, she's ready to go splat some bunnie heads by the looks of it.

[SCJ429]

Tough conditions to be load testing, more fun than I had at work. What happened to group 5? Is that a wind change?

[Daddybang]

Definitely looks like she's a keeper marksman!!! Nice work

[bigfellascott]

The Roos are in trouble

[marksman]

Tough conditions to be load testing, more fun than I had at work. What happened to group 5? Is that a wind change?

it was very tough conditions, group five was a hot barrel and I thought to myself good enough so really it was me
doesn't matter though I'm retesting groups between #1 and #2 target again
it is a keeper and the roo's are in big trouble
I'm very happy with it especially everything being secondhand on it, it was a gamble
its my hobby and what I spend my money on since I gave up ciggies 10 years ago

[Sergeant Hartman]

Have you accounted for the increase in.price of cigs in the last 10 years. I remember pack of 20 selling for well under 10 bucks when i used to work at a shop. and then got told that when a friend moved to aus he was paying 2bucks a packet and smoked like a chimney...even the cheapest 20 packs are $20+