2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

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2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by Ecobogan » 05 Dec 2018, 8:31 pm

Hi everyone,
Sounds like an out there idea....but some make it through and it's worth pushing.
One of the two big problems will be...can it be modded to take more ammo thereby being Cat D? I'd like to know from the expert rifle builders-- Is it possible to develop a self loading action that pretty much unequivocally can't be modified.
Obviously I'm no gunsmith but I'm thinking a mechanism type that surrounds the second round so a mag can't be introduced or a completely new configuration. I strongly feel our gun laws need some out of the box thinking where EVERY alternative is exhausted with the idea the the pro's and anti's agree.....what have we got shooters Australia wide? Let's not be naysayers now
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by duncan61 » 06 Dec 2018, 10:33 am

double game rifle can be purchased in 6.5x55 and is cat B.they come in lots of bigger chamberings so it would be hard to justify a 2 shot semi.cool idea but
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by Crazy » 06 Dec 2018, 11:00 am

There are few problems i see, if it is a true semi-auto center fire it would be cat d no matter the capacity. The closest things to a semi-auto rifle on cat b are double action revolving carbines and lever release firearms. There are also already double or triple barrel rifles and shotguns on the market. In all honest i believe that lever release firearms are going to be the next best thing on the Australian market, if an Australian company produces a lever release 12 gauge then that would get around the importation laws as lever release 12 gauges can't be imported.
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by Rod_outbak » 06 Dec 2018, 11:13 am

I'd have thought that unless you built a 2-round mag into the receiver itself(non-detachable), a self-loader can load the second round just as easily as it can load the 20th. And it would be a bitch to make the 2-round internal mag accessible in the event of jams/misfires, but make it too hard to modify to accept a larger detachable mag.

Maybe explore the option of some sort of indexing where like the firearms that fire 3-shot burst, that there's some mechanism to count the number of rounds that can fire before needing a manual reset?
Maybe 2 firing mechs; second one cocks after the first has fired?

So, off the top of my head, I can think of 3 different approaches where you could (in theory) achieve a 2-shot autoloader that couldnt (easily) be modded.
However you try to do it, though, it's going to be a messy and complicated thing to do. Cant see why the authorities would see it worth the stuffing around to allow, and why you wont simply achieve same (as Duncan61 pointed out) with a double rifle.

Also, given there's a wide assortment of both lever rifles and pump-action rifles already on the market as Cat B weapons, I just cant see why you'd bother with a 2-shot semi-auto development. The alternatives arent quite as fast on the reload, but they arent too slow, either.

So, technically possible, but not really sure why anyone would bother.
My thoughts; others likely have different ideas...
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by marksman » 06 Dec 2018, 11:41 am

anything is possible but as Rod said why would you bother
an under and over with a single trigger will do the same
and the adler type levers are as good as the self loader IMO
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by Gaznazdiak » 06 Dec 2018, 11:42 am

G'day Ecobogan
I love a good thought experiment. One usually starts with the "why".

What is the ultimate aim for the hypothetical action that can't be achieved by above suggestions like double rifle?

Or are we talking completely hypothetically?
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by duncan61 » 06 Dec 2018, 12:37 pm

When the ban was imposed on semi autos a friend of mine acquired a property letter from the sheep farm where he controlled the foxes and pigs during lambing season and bought a brand new Ruger Mini-14 in .223 as he claimed he needed fast follow up shots so If you have a need you can get a semi auto and that is in W.A..A large part of the motivation was just to prove he could but he was a poor shot and he would just keep blasting till they fell over.His son on the other hand was one off the best shots I have ever seen he would let foxes trot away to 300-400m Then drop them with a 22/250 I went with them as they could not shoot Kangaroos unless they took them of the property and I would follow and pick them up and process them in the next patch of bush.It was a beautiful property some of the paddocks were like bowling greens and it was surrounded by state forest pine trees.moral of the story you can get a semi auto
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by Ecobogan » 06 Dec 2018, 12:43 pm

Thanks for your replies guys
It most certainly is hypothetical at this point. An effort to explore and or rule it out in seeing how far Cat B can be pushed I suppose.
I was toying around the idea of a full auto 3 shot, full auto 2 shot ,as rod outback mentioned, 3 shot semi auto and 2 shot semi auto.
I wasn't actually aware of a modern incarnation of the double rifle and the only advantage really would be perhaps lighter and perhaps more accurate than a double barrel.
I really dig technology and craftsmanship in many areas, just wanted to put this idea out there and like a good thought experiment too!
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by bladeracer » 06 Dec 2018, 12:57 pm

Ecobogan wrote:Is it possible to develop a self loading action that pretty much unequivocally can't be modified.


Anything you can build, you can modify.
You could turn a single-shot bolt-action rifle into a semi-auto belt-fed machinegun if you desired to. Almost any action that requires manual effort to operate can be modified to make use of the wasted recoil force or the gas pressure to operate it instead.
I would need to see exactly how the Police have described a "semi-auto action" and what they have determined is a sufficient amount of effort required to modify that into something they won't allow.

The biggest problem I can see with a semi-auto with limited capacity, is that it is very difficult to make it impossible to increase the capacity in some way. California decided they'd fix the magazine into the rifle to limit it to only one magazine...so somebody invented the AR15 speedloader that strips rounds into the fixed magazine like a 30rd stripper clip, almost as fast as most people can change a magazine - without modifying the rifle.
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by Ecobogan » 06 Dec 2018, 1:07 pm

Thanks mate and this is exactly what I thought....it not being impossible to modify that is.
Instead of impossible I probably should've said ' where modifying would destroy the action or too difficult to' etc
I'm kinda trying to clear these semi dumb, fully dumb, semi auto, fully auto ideas out of my head so I can move on with my life..,.. possibly onto other semi or fully dumb ideas!
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by bladeracer » 06 Dec 2018, 1:11 pm

Crazy wrote:There are few problems i see, if it is a true semi-auto center fire it would be cat d no matter the capacity. The closest things to a semi-auto rifle on cat b are double action revolving carbines and lever release firearms. There are also already double or triple barrel rifles and shotguns on the market. In all honest i believe that lever release firearms are going to be the next best thing on the Australian market, if an Australian company produces a lever release 12 gauge then that would get around the importation laws as lever release 12 gauges can't be imported.


After the Adler debacle I wouldn't be surprised to see them banning, or re-categorizing lever-release to CatD as well.
Personally, I wouldn't be investing in a company looking to build such a thing here.

However, I do have my name on the list for the Yarra Sheila, provided they can bring it to market for $2K, which is still way too much in my opinion. I like what they're trying to do though, so it's worth $2000 to me to see it happen, if it does.
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by Ecobogan » 06 Dec 2018, 1:11 pm

Are double barrel rifles much of a done thing? Haven't heard much about them being used. Lever release, as crazy pointed out, are possibly the closest we might get....for now
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by bladeracer » 06 Dec 2018, 1:31 pm

Ecobogan wrote:Thanks mate and this is exactly what I thought....it not being impossible to modify that is.
Instead of impossible I probably should've said ' where modifying would destroy the action or too difficult to' etc
I'm kinda trying to clear these semi dumb, fully dumb, semi auto, fully auto ideas out of my head so I can move on with my life..,.. possibly onto other semi or fully dumb ideas!


Yes, that's why I'd need to see what the authorities have determined is "too much effort to modify" a firearm into semi- or full-auto.

I've long played with an idea based around being able to tip a box of .22LR into the feed "system" on the firearm, close the lid, and the rounds will find the correct alignment to feed into the action, no more fiddling with getting them into magazines. My most "viable" idea uses a system similar in layout to the PS90. One day I might get around to building a wooden mock-up and see if it'll work...or I might just go shooting instead with the firearms I already have :-)
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by bladeracer » 06 Dec 2018, 1:37 pm

Ecobogan wrote:Are double barrel rifles much of a done thing? Haven't heard much about them being used. Lever release, as crazy pointed out, are possibly the closest we might get....for now


It's an interesting idea.
In Victoria we can modify a firearm provided we don't change its category.
I can't see a legal difficulty with adding another barrel to a bolt rifle (I've seen a double-barrel bolt-rifle that only has one bolt handle, but two bolt heads), but is it worth the extra weight over a two-shot single-barrel bolt/lever/pump?
It might be neat to build a pair of rifle barrels you could swap onto a double-gun, but unless it's rimfire you'd be turning it into a CatB centrefire. On the other hand, you can buy and use caliber inserts to shoot centrefire pistol and rifle cartridges in shotguns already.
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by Ecobogan » 06 Dec 2018, 2:14 pm

Maybe the double rifle is the way forward and I'd be very interested in it's development too.
Found this piece of 10/10 awesomeness.... possibly what you were referring to? Umm...still working out how to upload attachments.
Anyway it's the Sceszi&Fuchs double barrel bolt action and looks nothing short of amazing....85k later though
Also the 'Yarra Shelia' is such a bent name for a gun it'd be worth signing up for one based on that alone!
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by Gaznazdiak » 06 Dec 2018, 2:14 pm

Fuchs Bolt action double rifle
This one will only cost you twice your weight in unobtanium.
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by Crazy » 06 Dec 2018, 2:15 pm

I have also had an idea which i have created a thread for a couple of weeks ago, i had the idea of creating a double action semi-auto. Very similar to a striker fire but instead of a firing pin being lifted by the trigger a hammer would be. Considering double action carbines are a thing i don't see how this could be illegal but like many things its a grey area.
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Re: 2 shot semi auto Cat B centrefire

Post by Crazy » 06 Dec 2018, 2:25 pm

Gaznazdiak wrote:Fuchs Bolt action double rifle
This one will only cost you twice your weight in unobtanium.

If this is the same rifle forgotten weapons did a video on it. And yes it would cost you a arm and a leg as it goes for around $36,000.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSEMz3iaSxo
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