Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

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Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by Patty93 » 25 Mar 2019, 8:02 pm

G’day lads,

Not sure where this question belongs but feel this is probably the closest area.

I have a relatively new Bergara HMR b14 in .308. Has fired just under 200 rounds through it, majority being remington core lokt.

The rifle has been in storage over the last 10 months due to an overseas trip and when i got the rifle back for the first time i noticed a brown tinge inside the barrel.

I have always cleaned this gun and have spoken to a few people and a few gun shops. Originally i thought it was rust but after a solid clean with some hoppes and some gun oil and it pulled through clean, discoloration did not go away. Next up I tried to hit it with some sweets 7.69 after a conversation with the guys at the gun shop and still no change. I though maybe the sweets would show some blue tinges to indicate copper but nope non of that.

Have shot 20 rounds through the rifle since and it didn’t appear to have lost accuracy, but I am dumbfounded as to what the hell is going on. I looked in my other rifle and it has not got the same discoulouration going on.

I will try attatched a photo to demonstrate. Maybe What i am seeing is normal, I have no idea..


Cheers
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by marksman » 25 Mar 2019, 8:15 pm

copper is still in the barrel
use sweets as instructed with a bronze brush backwards and forwards till you make a white foam
be aggressive and it will come out
dont just look at a change in discoloured blue to say your bore is clean
do what you are doing now, have a look in the bore for copper :thumbsup:
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by Patty93 » 25 Mar 2019, 8:26 pm

I was sold a ‘plastic of some sort brush’.

Will that still work? I am super worried about ruining the barrel with being too aggressive.


How long should i let the sweets sit in the barrel and what’s the best way to get the stuff in?
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by bigfellascott » 25 Mar 2019, 8:33 pm

Wire bore brush and some sort of copper solvent should see it looking better I would imagine. Do you use a rod or pull through? Use a rod!
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by Patty93 » 25 Mar 2019, 8:45 pm

Using a one piece rod. It didn’t foam when i was using the sweets, the gun shop guys said the wire brush would be wrecked by the solvent. I may have been to gentle.

I don’t have a bore guide, is this an issue?
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by brett1868 » 25 Mar 2019, 8:58 pm

That's copper fouling and easily removed with an ammonia based solvent. My favourite is the Robla Solo Mil 65 made by Ballistol but any copper specific solvent can be used. Clean the carbon first then then remove the copper, use a plastic brush and stainless steel jag if possible.

http://brtshooterssupply.com.au/products/robla-solo-mil-65.html
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by SCJ429 » 25 Mar 2019, 9:02 pm

Keep soaking it with copper solvent and agitate it with a brush until it removes the copper. It may take more than a dozen soaks to clean it all out. I use BoreTec Cu+, the best solvent I have found.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by bigfellascott » 25 Mar 2019, 9:20 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Keep soaking it with copper solvent and agitate it with a brush until it removes the copper. It may take more than a dozen soaks to clean it all out. I use BoreTec Cu+, the best solvent I have found.


Yeah that's what I use too, seems to do a good job going by the bore scope. :drinks:
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by duncan61 » 25 Mar 2019, 11:11 pm

Sweets 7.62.I am sure you should not leave it in too long as in a few minutes then work a steel bore brush carefully and it should come out.The pro I sold roos to claims you should not let the brush leave the end of the barrel makes sense.After sweets I use a solvent then dry and oil
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by sungazer » 26 Mar 2019, 6:00 am

Duncan you have that the wrong way around you must let the bronze brush leave the barrel for the bristles to run the other way. Yes it means they run over the crown. not doing this will cause issues in the bore the bristles have to go from laying down against the bore in one direction then as you try to pull the brush backwards the bristles have to stand up on end this is when you get marks then they lay down flat in the other direction. A newer brush you may just find you cant pull it backward in the bore or the bristles may not be able to turn over now it is really going to possibly scratch with pointy ends being dragged forwards.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by straightshooter » 26 Mar 2019, 6:10 am

The original post is a classic example of the mistake made by both beginners and 'old hands'.
On initial cleaning the copper fouling, if it is not completely removed, takes on a polish and on casual examination become relatively invisible.
With the passage of time and the help of oil in the barrel it acquires a tarnish and then becomes visible.
If left long enough there will be etching of the barrel found under the fouling when it is eventually removed.
Chrome moly barrels are more susceptible to this kind of fouling than so called stainless.
The barrel needs to be repeatedly left soaked in a good solvent for as long as it takes to no longer show any evidence of copper conversion salts, blue or green depending on the solvent.
Unfortunately due to it's composition Sweets is unsuitable for use in this way even though it is excellent when used as directed and the user manages to remove all fouling in that cleaning session.
Don't be afraid of using a phosphor-bronze as much as may be necessary and always keep the cleaning rod centered. Just consider how violent the passage of a bullet fired down the bore compared to the use of a phospor-bronze brush.
A bore guide will not prevent damage to your bore from your cleaning rod if you do not concentrate on keeping the rod centered.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by Wm.Traynor » 26 Mar 2019, 10:34 am

sungazer wrote:Duncan you have that the wrong way around you must let the bronze brush leave the barrel for the bristles to run the other way. Yes it means they run over the crown. not doing this will cause issues in the bore the bristles have to go from laying down against the bore in one direction then as you try to pull the brush backwards the bristles have to stand up on end this is when you get marks then they lay down flat in the other direction. A newer brush you may just find you cant pull it backward in the bore or the bristles may not be able to turn over now it is really going to possibly scratch with pointy ends being dragged forwards.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This This This This all the way to the end. An old Full-bore Armourer told me that you can pin-prick the bore at the muzzle if you reverse a bronze brush. You need the rifle in a vice. Detach the brush when clear of the muzzle. Re-attach and push it through again. Very slow and boring. Patch out after ten strokes and check for fouling In The Bore, not on a patch. It is true that the solvent, like Sweets, will react with the bronze/brass/whatever(?) in the brush so it will leave a trace on the patch. That old bloke said "One stroke for every shot fired", so you have a lot of work to do mate. Just be patient :thumbsup:
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by Patty93 » 26 Mar 2019, 12:11 pm

Still looks like i got discolouration in the barrel? I have been giving the bore a good brush and letting the sweets sit for 10 min in between. It is frothing up a little but not a great deal like i expected.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by marksman » 26 Mar 2019, 1:29 pm

let it sit for longer, 30 minutes or so and scrub again before removing

the sweets wont hurt your bore but not protecting with lubricant after cleaning will :thumbsup:
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by Member-Deleted » 26 Mar 2019, 1:43 pm

Is all this chemical and scrubbing doing damage to the bore and does this little bit of copper cause so much problems ?
I have it in my 7mag it doesn't seem to be affecting the accuracy any
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by Wm.Traynor » 26 Mar 2019, 3:02 pm

All the scrubbing with a Bronze Brush plus chemicals won't hurt your bore nearly as much as shooting. You do have to be careful with the rod though. Centre it properly with thumb and forefinger. The chamber mouth is your guide.
Under the copper is where the burnt carbon lies and it holds atmospheric moisture in contact with the steel. FWIW, the bore of my first centrefire became pitted owing to a faulty cleaning regime.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by bladeracer » 26 Mar 2019, 3:03 pm

Did "pitted" equal rooted?
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by No1_49er » 26 Mar 2019, 3:04 pm

brett1868 wrote:That's copper fouling and easily removed with an ammonia based solvent. My favourite is the Robla Solo Mil 65 made by Ballistol but any copper specific solvent can be used. Clean the carbon first then then remove the copper, use a plastic brush and stainless steel jag if possible.

http://brtshooterssupply.com.au/products/robla-solo-mil-65.html

+1 for the Robla Solo Mil by Ballistol. And the stainless or aluminium jag. BRT usually have a good stock, and are very quick.

FWIW, this is MY cleaning procedure. I also know quite a number of others who use the same method and achieve the same results.
With a new barrel it can take a while for things to settle down, but you will hopefully reach a stage whereby there will be no copper fouling laid down after your shooting. Happy days.
One piece cleaning rod with bearing handle.
Bore guide - custom made for rifle, or multi-fit such as a Lyman 04045 Universal.
1) - patch out with Windex until patches come out clean. You might be surprised how many you'll need.
2) - patch bore dry.
3) - patch out with brake cleaner until patches come out clean.
4) - patch bore dry
5) - use a loose patch to wet the bore, or if you have a bore guide with a solvent port, start with a nylon bristle brush, wet it and scrub the bore. Nylon bristles are forgiving so OK to reverse the direction when just reaching muzzle.
6) - patch out bore
7) - continue with wet patches until no colour (blue/green) showing. If you use stainless, or aluminium, jags you will not get a false indication of fouling because of the solvent acting on the brass jag. Same reason for using a nylon brush. If you do use a more sturdy brass brush, no problem. Just be sure to wash it with very hot water to remove the solvent/ammonia.
8) - I usually finish with Windex to ensure that the solvents are gone, then a pass with Hoppes.
Remember to patch the bore dry before you start shooting again.

Some people think that's all a bit OCD. I'll tell you why.
With ANY new rifle, I will fire ONE shot then clean per above. One more shot and repeat. For at least five shots. Then, maybe groups of 3, 5, then 10. There comes a time that there is NO copper fouling, at which stage you can be reasonably certain that sufficient rounds have traversed the barrel and the rifling/lands are burnished to the extent that copper fouling doesn't show its head again. Sure, there will still be carbon/powder fouling to clean out, but that's a "seasoned" barrel. So much easier to clean then. Tedious to begin with, but the long term dividends are worth the effort. TMWOT.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by Wm.Traynor » 26 Mar 2019, 7:06 pm

bladeracer wrote:Did "pitted" equal rooted?

No. It still shot quite well. I got a silver badge with that rifle when new bit subsequently, 5 shots grouped 1.25 moa.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by sungazer » 27 Mar 2019, 5:01 pm

No1_49er wrote:
brett1868 wrote:That's copper fouling and easily removed with an ammonia based solvent. My favourite is the Robla Solo Mil 65 made by Ballistol but any copper specific solvent can be used. Clean the carbon first then then remove the copper, use a plastic brush and stainless steel jag if possible.

http://brtshooterssupply.com.au/products/robla-solo-mil-65.html

+1 for the Robla Solo Mil by Ballistol. And the stainless or aluminium jag. BRT usually have a good stock, and are very quick.

FWIW, this is MY cleaning procedure. I also know quite a number of others who use the same method and achieve the same results.
With a new barrel it can take a while for things to settle down, but you will hopefully reach a stage whereby there will be no copper fouling laid down after your shooting. Happy days.
One piece cleaning rod with bearing handle.
Bore guide - custom made for rifle, or multi-fit such as a Lyman 04045 Universal.
1) - patch out with Windex until patches come out clean. You might be surprised how many you'll need.
2) - patch bore dry.
3) - patch out with brake cleaner until patches come out clean.
4) - patch bore dry
5) - use a loose patch to wet the bore, or if you have a bore guide with a solvent port, start with a nylon bristle brush, wet it and scrub the bore. Nylon bristles are forgiving so OK to reverse the direction when just reaching muzzle.
6) - patch out bore
7) - continue with wet patches until no colour (blue/green) showing. If you use stainless, or aluminium, jags you will not get a false indication of fouling because of the solvent acting on the brass jag. Same reason for using a nylon brush. If you do use a more sturdy brass brush, no problem. Just be sure to wash it with very hot water to remove the solvent/ammonia.
8) - I usually finish with Windex to ensure that the solvents are gone, then a pass with Hoppes.
Remember to patch the bore dry before you start shooting again.

Some people think that's all a bit OCD. I'll tell you why.
With ANY new rifle, I will fire ONE shot then clean per above. One more shot and repeat. For at least five shots. Then, maybe groups of 3, 5, then 10. There comes a time that there is NO copper fouling, at which stage you can be reasonably certain that sufficient rounds have traversed the barrel and the rifling/lands are burnished to the extent that copper fouling doesn't show its head again. Sure, there will still be carbon/powder fouling to clean out, but that's a "seasoned" barrel. So much easier to clean then. Tedious to begin with, but the long term dividends are worth the effort. TMWOT.


Good advice no need to use the expensive stuff to remove the easy to get out stuff , other than I put a few wet patches down the tube as soon as I can and let it soak on the way home.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by straightshooter » 28 Mar 2019, 7:02 am

Wm.Traynor wrote:This This This This all the way to the end. An old Full-bore Armourer told me that you can pin-prick the bore at the muzzle if you reverse a bronze brush. You need the rifle in a vice. Detach the brush when clear of the muzzle. Re-attach and push it through again. Very slow and boring. Patch out after ten strokes and check for fouling In The Bore, not on a patch. It is true that the solvent, like Sweets, will react with the bronze/brass/whatever(?) in the brush so it will leave a trace on the patch. That old bloke said "One stroke for every shot fired", so you have a lot of work to do mate. Just be patient :thumbsup:


Nonsense!
It's one thing to listen to nonsense, it's another to regurgitate it without thought.
On the expanded Moh's scale of hardness (Talc=1,Diamond=15) phosphorbronze = 4 and steel = 5 to 8.5 so there is no prospect of phosphor bronze ever scratching steel.
As for 'pin-pricking' steel the phosphorbronze would need to acquire a massive amount of kinetic energy to do so.
That just aint going to happen.

Wm.Traynor wrote:Under the copper is where the burnt carbon lies and it holds atmospheric moisture in contact with the steel.


For starters burnt carbon is known as carbon dioxide, that well known gas beloved by the greens and their fellow travellers.
The etching has nothing to do with carbon and everything to do with galvanic corrosion.
This goes some way to explain why it is more pronounced in chrome-moly than so called stainless barrels.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by SCJ429 » 28 Mar 2019, 7:10 am

I use BoreTec for carbon but I am sure quite a few products work well. I have used Balistol at the range for initial cleaning and it gets a large amount of carbon. Nothing like a bit of agitation with a brush to remove the carbon at the edges of the lands. I cannot say I have seen Windex used on the line but I have used Mobil 1 as a rust preventer before.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by SCJ429 » 28 Mar 2019, 7:17 am

I think you will find that diamond Is ten on The Mohs hardness scale.

Also combustion always produces carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and water. The stuff in your barrel is none of those, it is carbon particulate. Just saying.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by straightshooter » 28 Mar 2019, 7:31 am

SCJ429 wrote:I think you will find that diamond Is ten on The Mohs hardness scale.


On the expanded Moh's scale of hardness......etc.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by sungazer » 28 Mar 2019, 8:38 am

Have you worked out what the point pressure is on the point of the brass when trying to lay the bristles from one direction to the other? The fact that in most cases with a new brush it just cant be done. I would bet that the pressure on the point of the bristle would be enough to mark steel without a worry. Take a brass brush that you buy at the hardware and a piece of mild steel " that is all a barrel is even the Stainless ones are softer makes them easier to machine" and brush away you will see the marks. Start bashing the brush into the steel like a hammer and look for marks. Then tell me it does no damage.

If this was the worst miss information that was on this site it would be a great site for information. You should get out and read and comment on a lot of the other posts that are just pure BS.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by Bill » 28 Mar 2019, 8:56 am

sungazer do you own a borescope ?

and whats mild steel got to do with hammer forged barrels ? is it too early for popcorn
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by marksman » 28 Mar 2019, 8:56 am

shooters will work out there own regime on how to clean there bores and firearms
it's always good to get advise for what works and even older hands can learn something
just remember to lubricate your bore after cleaning to stop it corroding, especially when putting them away for a while :drinks:
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by bladeracer » 28 Mar 2019, 10:54 am

sungazer wrote:Have you worked out what the point pressure is on the point of the brass when trying to lay the bristles from one direction to the other? The fact that in most cases with a new brush it just cant be done. I would bet that the pressure on the point of the bristle would be enough to mark steel without a worry. Take a brass brush that you buy at the hardware and a piece of mild steel " that is all a barrel is even the Stainless ones are softer makes them easier to machine" and brush away you will see the marks. Start bashing the brush into the steel like a hammer and look for marks. Then tell me it does no damage.

If this was the worst miss information that was on this site it would be a great site for information. You should get out and read and comment on a lot of the other posts that are just pure BS.


The point pressure wouldn't be any different if the material were wood or plastic, and they won't mark steel either. Pushing the brush through lays the bristles backwards at an angle to the surface. The reason you can struggle to pull a brush backwards through a barrel is because you are trying to compress the length of each wire bristle. To be able to compress them they must be making significant friction with the surface - ie, digging into it. While it is possible somebody has made mild steel barrels in the past, barrels are usually made from at least 4140 or chrome-moly steel. Take a length of 20mm mild and a length of 20mm chrome-moly and try to wrap both around a tree.
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by TassieTiger » 28 Mar 2019, 11:54 am

Based on some ppl's cleaning regiments vs my own, obviously "poor" maintenance practices - I imagine I am going to open my safe one day to find a pile of dust from whence my firm arms used to live...
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Re: Discoloration in barrel / cleaning

Post by sungazer » 28 Mar 2019, 12:49 pm

This is exactly what I am trying to say The reason you can struggle to pull a brush backwards through a barrel is because you are trying to compress the length of each wire bristle. To be able to compress them they must be making significant friction with the surface - ie, digging into it And trying to compress a very short piece of wire is even harder. It has a very small end surface which increases the pressure just like high heels on a wooden floor. And if you cant lay them over then you are going to be dragging them backwards pointy end first.

I wouldnt take any barrel to hit against a tree that I ever wanted to shoot straight again. They are not as hard as you think. I have worked on them in a lathe and they are pretty soft compared to other metals esp the stainless ones.
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