Rifle Maintenance

Improving and repairing firearms. Rifle bedding, barrel work, stock replacement and other ways to improve your firearms.

Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by in2anity » 18 May 2020, 9:55 pm

Ziege wrote:No word of a lie, his guns only get cleaned if I do it. And in my youth as a 12yo doing it every now and then he was more worried about rust on the outside (we lived coastal) than he was about the bore, I used to just oil it with the patches he had from since forever, and before that who knows how long ago it was done, wouldn't be a stretch for me to believe he would go 500+ shots before anything that resembles a cleaning. In both his high powered rifles.

I haven't yet seen where my 223 has lost any accuracy due to that kind of fouling either, 200 shots over one weekend and still sub moa... So yeah dunno really


Just curious, what calibers were your old man’s guns?
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by Ziege » 19 May 2020, 12:52 am

They are* not were

270 and 223

And very much so still shooting that well now
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by SCJ429 » 19 May 2020, 7:57 am

That reminds me of a friend who had a AU Ford with 300,000 kilometres on it, he never serviced it but it got him where he needed to go. He laughed at me changing my oil every 5,000 kilometres.
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by in2anity » 19 May 2020, 8:57 am

SCJ429 wrote:That reminds me of a friend who had a AU Ford with 300,000 kilometres on it, he never serviced it but it got him where he needed to go. He laughed at me changing my oil every 5,000 kilometres.

:lol: good analogy. I'm more a 10k guy ;)

You're a comp benchrest guy though right SCJ? - what's the general consenus on cleaning in those circles? I'd imagine you guys would see your groups opening up if didn't use any chems?
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by Ziege » 19 May 2020, 9:08 am

Opening up a can of worms there in2anity, those guys have more superstitions than anyone about what works/is needed lol
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by in2anity » 19 May 2020, 2:04 pm

Ziege wrote:Opening up a can of worms there in2anity, those guys have more superstitions than anyone about what works/is needed lol


Yes some will blindly follow, but there's got to be some who hold empirical evidence that using solvents matters (or not)?
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by Ziege » 19 May 2020, 4:16 pm

Oh no doubt about it, if you shoot to a clear/cold bore it will place the shot in a different place than a fouled barrel, some barrels do foul more than others sure to type of Rifling and manufacturing process and calibre, example, jacketed bullets in .17 foul faster than 30cal at same velocities. And no doubt solvents for those situations or for your hunting rig after its had a fair bit of use will remove carbon, lead and copper as well as small amounts of brass from the lands and rifling, but as to what solvents are best?? Eh, never tested any really, I just have a brass brush and a can on that gunslick pro foam, and only ever really give mine a clean if I can see s**t down the barrel (obviously looking from the safe end with bolt out) or if I'm not gonna be using it again for a while, I've never had accuracy issues from not cleaning them, but in saying that maybe my sporadic cleans are often enough by chance.
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by TassieTiger » 19 May 2020, 4:54 pm

I reckon if you shine a light down the muzzle, have a really good and close look (carbon will often hide the goldish colour), you might be surprised...
I’ve a few shooter friends who scrubbed away a couple times after each shoot not really knowing what they were looking for and then after my sauer running in issues, where Cu was prominent and easy to see - when it was pointed out to them, you could see the light bulb moment.
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by SCJ429 » 19 May 2020, 5:59 pm

in2anity wrote:
SCJ429 wrote:That reminds me of a friend who had a AU Ford with 300,000 kilometres on it, he never serviced it but it got him where he needed to go. He laughed at me changing my oil every 5,000 kilometres.

:lol: good analogy. I'm more a 10k guy ;)

You're a comp benchrest guy though right SCJ? - what's the general consenus on cleaning in those circles? I'd imagine you guys would see your groups opening up if didn't use any chems?


You see some guys who clean between targets, you can knock them but they often end up beating you. For me, I want a barrel that will shoot 35 or so shots without loosing accuracy. I have tried cleaning mid match but it did not improve my performance. Close range PPC shooters all seem to clean between targets, you can't argue with their results. Ask 10 competition shooters what is the best cleaning regime and you will get 10 differant answers.

Fouling excessively can only make your rifle shoot worse, I often hear lazy rimfire shooters say they never clean their barrels. You never hear competition rimfire shooters say this. You need to find out where your barrel shoots best, some only need one fouling shot and some may need 10 to be at their best. No barrel needs 100 fouling shots before they perform.

I am no authority regarding cleaning and if your rifle shoots at your standard without cleaning, more power to you. If your AU Falcon leaves you stranded on the side of the road because you were too lazy to service it, you only have one person to blame.
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by in2anity » 19 May 2020, 8:45 pm

SCJ I basically saw the same in my 223 and 204 during load dev; both generally shot a very tidy group for 20-30 rounds, then groups open up a bit (sub moa to closer to moa) until I clean. The 204 is well broken in now, long since load development, so perhaps it could hold a sub-moa group for longer now (I wouldn’t know, I haven’t benched it for literally years).

The 223 is still early days; the barrel and throat are still relatively fresh (less than 300 rounds), and it certainly shoots stupidly for the first 30, then opens up a tad (around 1/2 moa to 1moa off the bags).

It doesn’t mean jack diddly squat in reality, because no way can I (currently) shoot better than 1moa from the sling, or a bipod for that matter (during a snaps match). And load dev is in the past, so perhaps I’ll never know for sure how bad copper fouling affects them (once they are broken in). Might be interesting going back and reinvestigating, I suppose...

I have a 308 and 303 which also see regular match use - with them, during load dev I didn’t particularly notice groups opening up due to fouling. Certainly heat, but not necessarily fouling. I still clean them the same however, with sweets to start. Perhaps though, incidentally, they just came out of the factory with cleaner tooling...

Then there’s the metallic silhouette guns, all slinging lead; 22lr, 32-20, 32h&r, 30-30, 44mag - given they all get shot offhand, a good spray of g96 down the tube followed by a bore snake or three is plenty. Apart from the scoped 22, it’d be hard to judge how much of an effect the fouling had, given they are far from precision instruments.
Last edited by in2anity on 19 May 2020, 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by TassieTiger » 19 May 2020, 9:30 pm

This is kind of fascinating to me because of what Ive been through recently, chasing some significant coppering in some newer rifles, but after learning what to look for and using a scope - I see it in all my barrels really...I mean I know I’ve shot good loads in a rifle that is not known to copper at all - but a torn copper jacket or similar, which is inevitable eventually, will still spray its jacket material into the last 5-8 inches of rifling every now and again - if this builds up and renders the rifling non existent - how can accuracy not be affected?
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by in2anity » 19 May 2020, 9:40 pm

TassieTiger wrote:This is kind of fascinating to me because of what Ive been through recently, chasing some significant coppering in some newer rifles, but after learning what to look for and using a scope - I see it in all my barrels really...I mean I know I’ve shot good loads in a rifle that is not known to copper at all - but a torn copper jacket or similar, which is inevitable eventually, will still spray its jacket material into the last 5-8 inches of rifling every now and again - if this builds up and renders the rifling non existent - how can accuracy not be affected?


I reckon does Tassie - it’s more of a question of “by how much”, which you have to consider per use-case. Perhaps at a certain point as much copper is being blasted out as is being layed down.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by TassieTiger » 19 May 2020, 9:41 pm

Ahhh. Never thought of that in2. Good point!
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by in2anity » 19 May 2020, 9:48 pm

I know if you sling some lead, and get a certain ammount of leading (not too much), you can "blast" that lead out by switching to jacketed. Makes the cleanup a little easier. Perhaps beyond a certain point something similar happens with copper after copper...
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by Strangedog » 23 May 2020, 5:52 pm

Does anyone use compressed air to blow out their camber and action etc to clean any lose carbon or anything else before then wiping down and brushing?
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by marksman » 23 May 2020, 7:29 pm

Strangedog wrote:Does anyone use compressed air to blow out their camber and action etc to clean any lose carbon or anything else before then wiping down and brushing?


yes l do :thumbsup:
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by Blr243 » 23 May 2020, 8:28 pm

If the internals of my lever gun were dry I might consider useing air because the bolt can’t be removed and it can get full of anything. So if i get worried about too much crud in there I tilt it sideways and empty a can of wd40 in there while cycling the action So I’m sort of flooding it
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by Strangedog » 23 May 2020, 8:36 pm

I clean my fishing reels with air and it works well, might stick some air in the action and around the throat before I do the normal routine after the next shooting trip.
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by perentie » 14 Aug 2021, 10:11 am

Looking at the Teslong NTG450.
Where do you get them in Oz?
I can only find Teslong Direct , Amazon or Rubber Monkey in NZ.
Is there not a local dealer?
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by Larry » 14 Aug 2021, 8:05 pm

I got mine direct from Teslong in China. Good company to deal with. In Australia I know the VRA sell them others may do so as well but I dont think they are authorized dealers as such.
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by Peter988 » 15 Aug 2021, 9:31 am

Ziege wrote:Love the pedantic cleaning regimes, my old man has a model 70 and a CMC Mountaineer he has had since the 70s, never once used fancy solvents, never once used anything other than maybe some crc or wd40 or ballistol, wipes down the outside blued steel with whatever oil he has on a rag. Guns still have their blued finish, shoot as straight as any other, and the stocks finishes are in good nick despite a few NICs and scratches from the last 40+ years


I had a chuckle when I read this last year. Nearly replied then and couldn’t help myself this time. I bought my 222 in 1968. I went shooting a couple times a year for the next 30 odd years. The rifle got a run through with a bit of oil on a brush after each trip. Always shot MOA with reloads. I didn’t buy shooting magazines or read shooting Forums so I didn’t realise you had to do all that fancy cleaning stuff. So in about 2015, after probably 2000 or more shots, it started to lose accuracy. I thought the old scope might be buggered so I took it to a gunshop on the Gold Coast to look at a new scope. They asked when I last cleaned it for copper. Didn’t have a clue what they were talking about. So I got re-educated. Gave the thing a good clean and got better accuracy. So yes it does work. But I still had good accuracy for 30 years without it lol.

Of course, these days, the new 223 gets the copper clean after every trip. Doesn’t take me long to learn.
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by JohnV » 15 Aug 2021, 10:13 am

Rem oil is ok for short term protection of the bore and the outside metal . Don't put it on any stock .
For cleaning inside the bore after shooting you need a proper copper solvent . Sweets 7.62 or Hoppe's no 9 . Bore Tech Eliminator or Pro Shot .
For longer term storage coat inside the bore and chamber with a good bearing grease . Use a short stiff bristle brush and coat the outside metalwork with a thin layer of grease , get into all the nooks and crannies . Stuff like WD40 and other penetrating liquids and application of too much oil is bad for bedding as it soaks down can pool between the metalwork and the bedding material affecting accuracy and rots the bedding and stock wood in time . On the outside it also runs off and dries out quickly leaving the metalwork unprotected . Grease stays put better and don't pool in the bedding .
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Re: Rifle Maintenance

Post by pomemax » 15 Aug 2021, 2:28 pm

If I am storing any fire arm I would use some EDDs RED look it up make about half a gallon for less than $25 and its brilliant on carbon .
for copper I would use Sweets 7.62 or Hoppe's no 9 . Bore Tech Eliminator. On the timber I use linseed oil with turps 50/50 very lightly in a soft cloth once a year remove the stock and clean the trigger action and under barrel check and wipe down with edds .
With this lock-down I have cleaned 28 longarms in the last weeks with the yearly clean and strip WD40 is good on triggers lightly .

The other thing is brushes dont keep using the same brush time after time they are like patches a consumable if its a nylon , bronze or stainless turbo brush replace them the cost compared to your firearm aint much last time I bought $200 worth from US delivered 9 different cals ( 10 of each cal $14 us )as compared to $10-15 aud for a single brush you can work that out
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