Opinion on 22lr Crown

[Rasmus7]

]Hi, I'm new to the forum and this is my first post. Sorry if it is a little long. I bought a new Norinco JW-15 (Synthetic stock) a week ago after they were recommended as a good accurate bunny gun. I've put about 200 rounds of various ammunition through it but the best 5 shot group I have come up with is 35mm. Before I shot it I gave it a thorough clean and removed all the grease from the barrel. I then went out and shot it and after 60 odd rounds the best 5 shot group I had was 118mm. The worst was 193mm. Today I changed the scope over from my HMR and shimmed up the action to temporarily float the barrel to see if that made an improvement. That's when I shot the 5 shot 35mm group. That was followed up by a 40mm, 73mm, 95mm and then a 53mm group. After shooting my HMR which generally shoots where I point it this has got worried that I've bought a dud. It was windy today with about 10+ knots cross wind but I would have expected better results. I 've looked at the crown and from my very limited experience it looks a little dodgy. It doesn't look to have an even bevel all round the opening. I've attached photo's for your opinion. I also backed off the tension on the action screws a bit before the 35mm group. Am I expecting too much too early, should I properly float the barrel or just keep shooting it to see if it comes good with use? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

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[Wm.Traynor]

Tell us about the shape of your 35 and 40mm groups Rasmus. i.e. more vertical dispersion than horizontal, or vice versa? Or are they round?

The bore appears to have some white stuff in it from the pics. Is that white flannel from cleaning patches? Otherwise it might be pits in the bore.
What was the range?
That was one helluva dramatic improvement from floating the barrel but if poor bedding is the problem, then it is possible that the action bedding might be crook too.
What did you use to shim the action?

[Rasmus7]

Hi W.M Traynor, thanks for your reply. Rather than try to explain I've included my last two target sheets. On re measuring my groups my numbers may have been wrong and it may have been worse than I thought. That is some sort of foreign body in the barrel but it is gone now. Yes it is a great improvement with the float but on this gun the second action screw does not bed down tight with the stock so there is a gap under the second action screw so I was concerned that I was putting it under tension and maybe creating another problem. I used two washers under the first bedding screw into the post and peelable aluminum shims under the tang at the rear.

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[rc42]

The RWS sub-sonic is a reasonable round but they are far from match grade, it could be that your rifle doesn't doesn't work well with them, some 22LR rifles just can't group with some brands of ammo and that can even change between batches of the same type.

I would suggest getting a selection of different ammo types and see how much variation you are getting, if none of them group well then move on the rifle issues but the bedding and free floating the barrel will probably already have made it as good as it can be, the JW-15 is never going to be a competitive bench rest rifle.

Have a look at some of the accuracy reviews online and see what results others are getting, below is a youtube link for a similar rifle with different ammo types.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U2oAIvYGo4

[Wm.Traynor]

Rasmus,
Because those washers and shims are loose, the action will bounce imperceptibly, resulting in different vibrations from one shot to another. This is not good for accuracy. Nice try though mate
You need to have your rifle bedded in epoxy (for instance), which adheres to the stock permanently. Until you do that, I would modify the tang shims, by cutting them in half, at right angles to the longitudinal axis of the rifle. That is, the cut should be made through the centre of the bolt hole. Discard the rearmost half and reposition the remainder where it was, on the muzzle side of the hole. It might be a temporary improvement but like I said, nice try and good luck.

[rc42]

Just to add with regard to re-crowning the muzzle...

Budget rifles don't get much finishing so the crown may well be affecting accuracy, but the cost of a gunsmith just isn't justified for such a budget rifle and there's no guarantee it would even help.
You can try changing it yourself with a cordless drill, brass screw and some valve grinding paste, there are youtube videos on that too,
I used that method on my Ruger M77/357 but that had a clear manufacturing defect on the muzzle when I got it but it took 6 months to arrive from the USA so I wasn't sending it back. It also had a stainless barrel so was easy to change without leaving marks, on a blued barrel you would expose the bright steel so it would look damaged and be prone to rusting if you don't re-blue it.

Edit - good tips from Wim, have a look for videos about glass/epoxy bedding and barrel floating too, it's a fairly easy DIY job and that did make a difference on my Ruger

[marksman]

the crown doesn't look very flash, it might be my eyes but it looks like there are chips of metal taken away
if it is a crown job is needed, you can get a professional crown job from a smith or if your handy with tools this is a method l have used with success
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y9fr-3Wy5M

[TassieTiger]

Those groups are pretty bad - I doubt there is any accuracy guarantees on such a budget rifle...but I wonder what the shops take on it might be ? There is something / s - wrong.

[deanp100]

If you want to play a bit start with several different brands of ammo, even cheap stuff. Take those washers out and get some rubber pads like bike tube and screw the down under the action and try it . Move them around and tighten and loosen and try it, take out the action pads and put them under the barrel instead, screw down tight and try it. Extremely good chance it will respond to something. You may need to bed the barrel and leave the action alone. Weirder things have happened. A lot of my old Lithgows are at their best with barrel pressure.

[Rasmus7]

Thanks to everyone for your opinion. I've tried about ten different types of ammo. I got the best results from RWS Subs, Eley subs, Winchester 42 Max subs, and CCI quiets. And I think i"m handy enough to try the re-crown in the you tube video and bed the action if required but at the moment I hesitant to alter the rifle permanently in case I have to return it. I'm fighting with myself whether to give up on it or go all in and re-crown the barrel, bed and/or float. Before I decide anything I might contact the seller and also I'll try the rubber pads and see if that helps and try to put any permanent change off for now.

[deanp100]

It’s even more fun if you can shoot at home. Try something, fire it , pull it apart and try something else . Old business cards go well in places as a temp measure also.
Good luck.
Deano

[straightshooter]

Rasmus7
Forget most of the so called advice one may see in this type of thread. It is the Dunning Kruger syndrome in operation.
Go to the basics.
Firstly the few JW15 barrels I have examined have been pretty rough although some shot quite well.
Try this.
Push a dry firmly fitting patch through the bore. If you feel tight and loose spots then that is an indication of a poor barrel or bad leading.
There is only one real cure for a bad barrel.
As for leading take the rifle out in the midday sun and position it so the muzzle end is brightly illuminated and you can view the bore preferably with magnification. If you can see any leading then that is part of your problem.
You might be able to fix the problem by cleaning the bore with JB paste which might also negate some of the roughness. One thing to be careful of is to have a physical barrier preventing the the jag passing out of the muzzle while making quite a few backward and forward strokes.
Generally perfection in the crown is of far less importance than gunsmiths claim. What is important is the quality of the rifling close to the crown.
Beyond that there there an array of issues that can affect rimfire accuracy, as distinct from centerfire accuracy, none of which respond to tinkering with bedding.

[Larry]

Just addressing your crown issue only and I think there is a lot more going on than just a bad crown.
Ideally the crown would have nearly razor sharp endges with the inside of the bore. The shape of the crown can have a significant impact on the accuracy or grouping of a rifle. On the other hand there are many different styles and shapes that have been or are used when it comes to the actual shape from rounded to stepped and single angle designs. The most important thing is that it is consistent for the full 360 degrees with no lopsidedness to it.

I would firstly pursue the returning of the gun and replacement rather than repair. That can be a dog chasing its tail type of exercise and get expensive very quickly.

[deanp100]

Rasmus7
Forget most of the so called advice one may see in this type of thread. It is the Dunning Kruger syndrome in operation.
Go to the basics.
Firstly the few JW15 barrels I have examined have been pretty rough although some shot quite well.
Try this.
Push a dry firmly fitting patch through the bore. If you feel tight and loose spots then that is an indication of a poor barrel or bad leading.
There is only one real cure for a bad barrel.
As for leading take the rifle out in the midday sun and position it so the muzzle end is brightly illuminated and you can view the bore preferably with magnification. If you can see any leading then that is part of your problem.
You might be able to fix the problem by cleaning the bore with JB paste which might also negate some of the roughness. One thing to be careful of is to have a physical barrier preventing the the jag passing out of the muzzle while making quite a few backward and forward strokes.
Generally perfection in the crown is of far less importance than gunsmiths claim. What is important is the quality of the rifling close to the crown.
Beyond that there there an array of issues that can affect rimfire accuracy, as distinct from centerfire accuracy, none of which respond to tinkering with bedding.

All over the world there have been millions of rimfire that have improved with bedding, screw tightening, pressure pads and general tinkering. They should have just asked you about wasting their time.

[TassieTiger]

Rasmus7
Forget most of the so called advice one may see in this type of thread. It is the Dunning Kruger syndrome in operation.
Go to the basics.
Firstly the few JW15 barrels I have examined have been pretty rough although some shot quite well.
Try this.
Push a dry firmly fitting patch through the bore. If you feel tight and loose spots then that is an indication of a poor barrel or bad leading.
There is only one real cure for a bad barrel.
As for leading take the rifle out in the midday sun and position it so the muzzle end is brightly illuminated and you can view the bore preferably with magnification. If you can see any leading then that is part of your problem.
You might be able to fix the problem by cleaning the bore with JB paste which might also negate some of the roughness. One thing to be careful of is to have a physical barrier preventing the the jag passing out of the muzzle while making quite a few backward and forward strokes.
Generally perfection in the crown is of far less importance than gunsmiths claim. What is important is the quality of the rifling close to the crown.
Beyond that there there an array of issues that can affect rimfire accuracy, as distinct from centerfire accuracy, none of which respond to tinkering with bedding.

So your effectively saying that the ppl whom have given advice thus far in this thread - before you posted - are over estimating their abilities and knowledge, but you yourself are immune ?
And then you happen to give advice, that one might consider “advanced” - and advice that is prone to irreversible barrel damage if carelessly undertaken by someone inexperienced...hmmm interesting.

[marksman]

Rasmus7
Forget most of the so called advice one may see in this type of thread. It is the Dunning Kruger syndrome in operation.
Go to the basics.
Firstly the few JW15 barrels I have examined have been pretty rough although some shot quite well.
Try this.
Push a dry firmly fitting patch through the bore. If you feel tight and loose spots then that is an indication of a poor barrel or bad leading.
There is only one real cure for a bad barrel.
As for leading take the rifle out in the midday sun and position it so the muzzle end is brightly illuminated and you can view the bore preferably with magnification. If you can see any leading then that is part of your problem.
You might be able to fix the problem by cleaning the bore with JB paste which might also negate some of the roughness. One thing to be careful of is to have a physical barrier preventing the the jag passing out of the muzzle while making quite a few backward and forward strokes.
Generally perfection in the crown is of far less importance than gunsmiths claim. What is important is the quality of the rifling close to the crown.
Beyond that there there an array of issues that can affect rimfire accuracy, as distinct from centerfire accuracy, none of which respond to tinkering with bedding.

SS are you saying l am not as smart as l think l am you may be right

anyway l would like to add that if you clean the barrel before doing the test SS describes you will be feeling problems not fouling although fouling could be a problem but l dont think so because there is an improvement with some of what you have done already

really Larry is right that returning of the gun and replacement rather than repair would be better if that is possible

[pomemax]

Rasmus7
you said in your first post you have put about 200 through of different brands of ammo and you seeing poor grouping not surprising realy
I would try putting 1500 through then look at your groups all of the same brand AND DO NOT CLEAN THE BORE its a .22 they need the wax coating to deposit in the bore your looking too early .

[straightshooter]

So your effectively saying that the ppl whom have given advice thus far in this thread - before you posted - are over estimating their abilities and knowledge, but you yourself are immune ?
And then you happen to give advice, that one might consider “advanced” - and advice that is prone to irreversible barrel damage if carelessly undertaken by someone inexperienced...hmmm interesting.

TassieTiger did I really say that or is the view expressed in your first statement akin to a snowflake seeing 'epistemological violence' in an opinion that challenges their preferred mindset, with a bit of ad hominem thrown in for good measure.
The path to solving any fault that is not immediately obvious is to systematically eliminate the most likely problem areas rather than offer one's favourite 'go to' solution.
The excessively poor grouping could have easily have been explained by a bad scope or mount, or shooting ability, but these factors were already addressed by the original poster.
Let's face reality, JW15 rifles are the cheapest 22's available and the few barrels that I have examined would have to be the roughest I have ever seen but that does not mean every one is no good so why not start in the most likely place first without affronting the original poster or subjecting him to any unnecessary costs or losses.
As for the second statement, since when has cleaning a barrel been considered "advanced"? Are you familiar at all with JB paste?
In my opinion 'careless inexperienced' people are capable of inflicting irreversible damage to just about any part of a firearm particularly when acting on the misguided belief they fully understand what they are doing.

To quote Harry Callahan (as portrayed by Clint Eastwood) "a man's got to know his limitations".
I just hope I know mine.

[TassieTiger]

So your effectively saying that the ppl whom have given advice thus far in this thread - before you posted - are over estimating their abilities and knowledge, but you yourself are immune ?
And then you happen to give advice, that one might consider “advanced” - and advice that is prone to irreversible barrel damage if carelessly undertaken by someone inexperienced...hmmm interesting.

TassieTiger did I really say that or is the view expressed in your first statement akin to a snowflake seeing 'epistemological violence' in an opinion that challenges their preferred mindset, with a bit of ad hominem thrown in for good measure.
The path to solving any fault that is not immediately obvious is to systematically eliminate the most likely problem areas rather than offer one's favourite 'go to' solution.
The excessively poor grouping could have easily have been explained by a bad scope or mount, or shooting ability, but these factors were already addressed by the original poster.
Let's face reality, JW15 rifles are the cheapest 22's available and the few barrels that I have examined would have to be the roughest I have ever seen but that does not mean every one is no good so why not start in the most likely place first without affronting the original poster or subjecting him to any unnecessary costs or losses.
As for the second statement, since when has cleaning a barrel been considered "advanced"? Are you familiar at all with JB paste?
In my opinion 'careless inexperienced' people are capable of inflicting irreversible damage to just about any part of a firearm particularly when acting on the misguided belief they fully understand what they are doing.

To quote Harry Callahan (as portrayed by Clint Eastwood) "a man's got to know his limitations".
I just hope I know mine.

Are you seriously asking me to quantify your own statement as to justify a response ? Or is it a contrived attempt at a backward step by a a self indulgent or perhaps narcissistic person, whom realises their mistake but can’t bring themselves to acknowledge it, given their “handles” representation?

Yes mate - you did really say it. I couldn’t give a rats, call me what ever you want, snowflake, egotistical, I care not - I wasn’t one whom offered any meaningful advice re resolution for the fault, I don’t pretend to know as much as many here, so offered little on the subject, but plenty of other of good ppl did. Good ppl whom try and help and good ppl whom you decided to “straight shoot down”...adding insult with your Kruger comments...so quote your egotistical poems all you like. Glass remains glass and is easily seen through as well as broken.

Cleaning a barrel is not advanced - cleaning a barrel with a grinding paste to the extent of removing metal ? I know your not an idiot...so given the posters previous comments, it was clear he wasn’t experienced. Pretty big difference in running a few brushes in a .22 vs polishing out high/tight spots in the barrel...in fact I don’t care how in experienced or careless you might be - a few brushes is not going to hurt the barrel (or the warranty) no matter if you push them through with your dick, but imagine taking the rifle back to the shop and they find paste in the rifling ?

To further quote MR Callahan to you!, “it’s a question of methods. Everybody wants results, It’s just no one wants to do what they have to do to get them.”

[straightshooter]

Are you seriously asking me to quantify your own statement as to justify a response ? Or is it a contrived attempt at a backward step by a a self indulgent or perhaps narcissistic person, whom realises their mistake but can’t bring themselves to acknowledge it, given their “handles” representation?

Yes mate - you did really say it. I couldn’t give a rats, call me what ever you want, snowflake, egotistical, I care not - I wasn’t one whom offered any meaningful advice re resolution for the fault, I don’t pretend to know as much as many here, so offered little on the subject, but plenty of other of good ppl did. Good ppl whom try and help and good ppl whom you decided to “straight shoot down”...adding insult with your Kruger comments...so quote your egotistical poems all you like. Glass remains glass and is easily seen through as well as broken.

Cleaning a barrel is not advanced - cleaning a barrel with a grinding paste to the extent of removing metal ? I know your not an idiot...so given the posters previous comments, it was clear he wasn’t experienced. Pretty big difference in running a few brushes in a .22 vs polishing out high/tight spots in the barrel...in fact I don’t care how in experienced or careless you might be - a few brushes is not going to hurt the barrel (or the warranty) no matter if you push them through with your dick, but imagine taking the rifle back to the shop and they find paste in the rifling ?

To further quote MR Callahan to you!, “it’s a question of methods. Everybody wants results, It’s just no one wants to do what they have to do to get them.”

For somebody who doesn't give a rat's (ar$e) the length of your reply tends to suggest otherwise.
Perhaps you are undervaluing yourself and your response may indeed equate in value to a rat's ar$e.

[SCJ429]

I am not sure why you are surprised by SS,s response Tassie. He always jumps into a thread telling the OP that all other posters have no idea and that his advice is the only thing that matters. Perhaps he is actually Dan Lilja but I am guessing not.

By the look of that crown, it won't be doing you any favours. The barrel may also be poor quality and this is as good as it will ever shoot. I had a cheap 22lr and I cut the barrel down with a cut off wheel. I polished the new crown with some valve grinding paste and it then shot under an inch at 50 metres. Not great but way better that the previous damaged crown.

[TassieTiger]

My bad - re read SC’s response and I had it wrong.

[Rasmus7]

Hi all,
I thought I'd report back on the outcome. After taking out the shims and shooting it again it didn't get better or worse. It would still group one or two then fling the rest all about. I followed Tassie Tigers advice and contacted the shop where I bought it and they asked me to bring it back so that they could test fire it on their indoor range. They came up with the same results so they changed the rings with no effect so they put a different scope on. Suddenly the rifle started to shoot straight. I took the option to buy a new scope and they shot it to check the grouping and zero. They only had a 20 metre range but the group was less that half an inch and on the bull. I shot it today and got the same result over 20 and 25 metres but the wind was very strong and over 50 they opened up so it wasn't worth continuing in the wind. Overall I'm pretty happy and am looking forward to having a shoot without the wind to see how it goes over 50mt. Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

[Ziege]

ive seen 22's where the old fart owner has hacked off the front sight/ first 1" of barrel and they were still accurate so yeah dunnos

[deanp100]

That’s funny. After all that I don’t think any of us even mentioned the most obvious potential problem, even “ Straightshooter” who knows everything.

[TassieTiger]

Hi all,
I thought I'd report back on the outcome. After taking out the shims and shooting it again it didn't get better or worse. It would still group one or two then fling the rest all about. I followed Tassie Tigers advice and contacted the shop where I bought it and they asked me to bring it back so that they could test fire it on their indoor range. They came up with the same results so they changed the rings with no effect so they put a different scope on. Suddenly the rifle started to shoot straight. I took the option to buy a new scope and they shot it to check the grouping and zero. They only had a 20 metre range but the group was less that half an inch and on the bull. I shot it today and got the same result over 20 and 25 metres but the wind was very strong and over 50 they opened up so it wasn't worth continuing in the wind. Overall I'm pretty happy and am looking forward to having a shoot without the wind to see how it goes over 50mt. Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

That’s good news mate. Bit of a niggling worry - if your scope was working on your Hmr previously but hey, scopes can and do go bad. I’ve got an old norinco from the 60’s passed down as my grand dads gun - it shoots 1-1.25” groups at 50m with almost any ammo but if I feed it premium food, those groups will close up to a consistent 1” rifle.I’d hope that a new rifle would at least emulate that...but yours will hopefully get better with more shots. Regardless of the purchase price - Australia law says it must perform as intended...and it sounds like the shop is behind you as well regardless.
Thanks for posting back and letting us know outcome

[Wm.Traynor]

Hi all,
I thought I'd report back on the outcome. After taking out the shims and shooting it again it didn't get better or worse. It would still group one or two then fling the rest all about. I followed Tassie Tigers advice and contacted the shop where I bought it and they asked me to bring it back so that they could test fire it on their indoor range. They came up with the same results so they changed the rings with no effect so they put a different scope on. Suddenly the rifle started to shoot straight. I took the option to buy a new scope and they shot it to check the grouping and zero. They only had a 20 metre range but the group was less that half an inch and on the bull. I shot it today and got the same result over 20 and 25 metres but the wind was very strong and over 50 they opened up so it wasn't worth continuing in the wind. Overall I'm pretty happy and am looking forward to having a shoot without the wind to see how it goes over 50mt. Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

That's a good shop if they would go to that trouble.

[Rasmus7]

G'day TassieTiger. I was wondering if anyone would pick up on the history of the scope that was previously on my HMR. I bought the HMR from a friend and in the early days I zeroed it and went hunting. Most shots were dead accurate with some shots out to 120-130 meters on rabbits. Often though I would miss absolute sitters. So I would scratch my head come home and check the zero. I would re-zero and put it down to mishandling or bumping the scope. Also I hadn't shot since I was a kid so I also thought it could also have been my technique. Hit rate for the whole Summer season was about 60% - 70% with most ranges from 40-100 metres. I believed that based on some of the shots I was making it should have been better so it will be interesting to see if there is any better results with a different scope on my HMR.

[Wm.Traynor]

Rasmus7
re your HMR scope
Your post reminds me of some advice that was given to me some years ago regarding scopes that are unused for some time. The advice was that the adjustment turrets should be wound to their limits in both directions, before being returned to zero. This is something that should be done regularly, I was told.

Could be hogwash for all I know but on remembering, 10 minutes ago, I did it to all of mine.

Others will be sure to have an opinion and set me straight pretty soon

[deanp100]

Malcolm Eames the scope repairer in Brisbane says on his website to give the turrets a crank every so often to keep the threads and lube moving. It certainly wouldn’t hurt.