Thinktank on 444 bolt action

[straightshooter]

I hope you are aware that the CIP (EU) maximum average pressure for the 444 is 51.5k psi.
SAAMI is 44k CUP which translates to a pressure in the early 50 kps region.

[SCJ429]

Has anyone considered the 416 Rigby?

You must be a good bloke. The 416 is one of the hardest hitting, stood the test of time and can be used on anything by most people. My 416 is my favourite big bore.

[mickb]

I hope you are aware that the CIP (EU) maximum average pressure for the 444 is 51.5k psi.
SAAMI is 44k CUP which translates to a pressure in the early 50 kps region.

Mate I am but not sure what your point is. The project is a combination of higher pressures, CVA or a decent bolt can run up to 60KPSI, bullets seated out, long throated, heavyweight bullets.Basically makes the cartridge look like a real big game round with the bullet hanging out properly like a mini 458 win mag. Regular 444 marlin loads and its short COAL, double barrels, 240 grain pistol bullets etc etc are no relevance. In effect its almost like a new wildcat or when you put a 470 nitro in a single shot.

The 2100fps with 410 grain load the fellas had was probably in the mid 40kpsi pressure range. Case full of Ar2206H compressed, very slow powder for the case. And thats only a 22" barrel.

Edited to say Join up aus hunting net and look for safari rifle 444 its all there with the gunsmiths who do them .For the record they did the same thing there battling naysayers for several pages but by the end everyone was on board as It really is a neat little elephant gun. 450-400 nitro or original 404 jeffery power in a cheap dirty little 44 mag CVA with the 444 reamer run into it and long throated...

[mickb]

Hey Billo can you teach me the trick to posting about 500 S&W or 500 A2, two vastly more obscure, powerful and difficult to feed cartridges component wise, yet not having a thread full of folks trying to poke holes in them.

[Oldbloke]

Hey Billo can you teach me the trick to posting about 500 S&W or 500 A2, two vastly more obscure, powerful and difficult to feed cartridges component wise, yet not having a thread full of folks trying to poke holes in them.

[straightshooter]

Edited to say Join up aus hunting net and look for safari rifle 444 its all there with the gunsmiths who do them .For the record they did the same thing there battling naysayers for several pages but by the end everyone was on board as It really is a neat little elephant gun. 450-400 nitro or original 404 jeffery power in a cheap dirty little 44 mag CVA with the 444 reamer run into it and long throated...

Which invites the following question,
If all that certitude is available on that other forum you refer to, why are you wasting your time dealing with, in your perception, the unsupportive and unproductive comments on this forum.

[Billo]

Hey Billo can you teach me the trick to posting about 500 S&W or 500 A2, two vastly more obscure, powerful and difficult to feed cartridges component wise, yet not having a thread full of folks trying to poke holes in them.

That's the beauty of 50s, no one has em or the experience so all ya claims go straight thru to the keeper

[mickb]

Edited to say Join up aus hunting net and look for safari rifle 444 its all there with the gunsmiths who do them .For the record they did the same thing there battling naysayers for several pages but by the end everyone was on board as It really is a neat little elephant gun. 450-400 nitro or original 404 jeffery power in a cheap dirty little 44 mag CVA with the 444 reamer run into it and long throated...

Which invites the following question,
If all that certitude is available on that other forum you refer to, why are you wasting your time dealing with, in your perception, the unsupportive and unproductive comments on this forum.

I mentioned the single shot to indicate the success/ power capabilities of the cartridge.

The thread however is getting ideas on doing it on a bolt action,

[bigrich]

so what's the latest on your 444 project mick ?

[mickb]

so what's the latest on your 444 project mick ?

Few of us looking into it regards gunsmiths mate

[mickb]

I was posting on marlin forums where they even have a 444 only subforum and even there blokes were saying there isnt much point to a 444 get a 45-70. You know what the worst thing is, coming from having owned a bunch of cz550's when i was younger( 2 x 375, 2 x 4

[mickb]

I was posting on marlin forums where they even have a 444 only subforum and even there blokes were saying there isnt much point to a 444 get a 45-70. Coming from having owned a cz550 in 375 and 416 rigby in younger years( '99 , the first year they came in) the 45-70 was seen as the poor mans big game gun. .

If you couldnt handle or understand what a real elephant gun is you got yourself marlin guide gun. And you NEVER saw it poke its head onto a dedicated african game thread. Despite the fact it can probably kill elephant with the right bullet it gets pulled apart by about blokes with 458's in the first 20 replies. Its all perspective I guess

[straightshooter]

Curious comments.
Ballistically the 444 and the 405 Winchester are about equal. Teddy Roosevelt and his son were able to take lions, rhino and elephants with their 405's with a 300 grain projectile with MV 2200 fps and declined the use of heavier double rifles although results on elephant were "mixed", whatever that means.
My extensive experimentation with the 444 in the 90's led me to the belief that the energy sweet spot for the 444 in a Marlin lever action sits with a 265 grain projectile and a suitable double base high bulk density flake powder available at that time. At one point I even tried salvaged cordite.
In a bolt action there will be fewer of the constraints imposed by a lever action as you have earlier pointed out but even so you will still be faced with the problem of getting enough of a suitable high energy powder, not just slower burning, into the space available to reach the numbers you hope for with a 410 grain projectile even with pressures in the region of 60000 psi +.

[bigpete]

Curious comments.
Ballistically the 444 and the 405 Winchester are about equal. Teddy Roosevelt and his son were able to take lions, rhino and elephants with their 405's with a 300 grain projectile with MV 2200 fps and declined the use of heavier double rifles although results on elephant were "mixed", whatever that means.
My extensive experimentation with the 444 in the 90's led me to the belief that the energy sweet spot for the 444 in a Marlin lever action sits with a 265 grain projectile and a suitable double base high bulk density flake powder available at that time. At one point I even tried salvaged cordite.
In a bolt action there will be fewer of the constraints imposed by a lever action as you have earlier pointed out but even so you will still be faced with the problem of getting enough of a suitable high energy powder, not just slower burning, into the space available to reach the numbers you hope for with a 410 grain projectile even with pressures in the region of 60000 psi +.

Having read " African Game Trails " I'd be disinclined to pay much heed to Roosevelt's experiences

[bigrich]

Actually teddy Roosevelt is a very interesting character and probably one of the best presidents the yanks ever had . Big personality with a can-do attitude. I found his biography as interesting a read as Elmer Keith. Texas ranger frank hammer is also an incredible read . Sorry, drifting off topic….

[straightshooter]

Having read " African Game Trails " I'd be disinclined to pay much heed to Roosevelt's experiences

Why so?
The only interest is in the cartridge used and not the Roosevelt exploits.

[mickb]

Curious comments.

In a bolt action there will be fewer of the constraints imposed by a lever action as you have earlier pointed out but even so you will still be faced with the problem of getting enough of a suitable high energy powder, not just slower burning, into the space available to reach the numbers you hope for with a 410 grain projectile even with pressures in the region of 60000 psi +.

Mate not sure if you are reading all the posts. Its already been done, there is no problem to face or hoping for a certain level as I said several times already..

Powder was Ar2206H, bullet seated way out, increases the usable case capacity probably 15%( or more, we arent just talking a few mm here, the bullet is almost 3/4 out of the case, as opposed to regular 444 marlin where it seats very deelpy) The velocity achieved was 2100fps with 410 grain jacketed. Quickload estimates under 50kpsi. You could even drop down to a faster powder like Ar2207.

[straightshooter]

What was the actual load of 2206H used to achieve 2100 fps with a 410 grain projectile?

[wrenchman]

I am of the opinion if that's what you like and can pay for it you should not have to explain it to any one

[bigrich]

I am of the opinion if that's what you like and can pay for it you should not have to explain it to any one

Agreed

[Oldbloke]

Whatever floating yr boat.

[mickb]

What was the actual load of 2206H used to achieve 2100 fps with a 410 grain projectile?

mate I wont post others data between sites nor the photos either but as mentioned earlier feel free to check out the 444 safari thread on Aus hunt net

[mickb]

I am of the opinion if that's what you like and can pay for it you should not have to explain it to any one

Thats a very American sentiment and I mean in a good way.

[mickb]

Hey Billo can you teach me the trick to posting about 500 S&W or 500 A2, two vastly more obscure, powerful and difficult to feed cartridges component wise, yet not having a thread full of folks trying to poke holes in them.

That's the beauty of 50s, no one has em or the experience so all ya claims go straight thru to the keeper

Mate a 50 cal is looking better all the time. Then again the first comment would be " it doesnt do anything a 45-70 doesnt do" I can see it now.

[straightshooter]

What was the actual load of 2206H used to achieve 2100 fps with a 410 grain projectile?

mate I wont post others data between sites nor the photos either but as mentioned earlier feel free to check out the 444 safari thread on Aus hunt net

I tried to have a look on that forum but there is no way to have a look as a guest.
I have no desire to give out all my details to yet another forum that I might never visit again.
As for the various drongo comments.
I am as interested in these 444 developments as you are, having owned one since the mid 70's, which I don't think can be said for those commenters.

[Billo]

hey Straightshooter Ill share what the load was, kinda funny cause I organised the purchase of that rifle which was then on sold to the current owner. LOL using brass I annealed too

56gr of 2206H behnd the 410gr Woody for 2100fps, safe working load was 45gr. The throat on this riffle has been extend for a few extra grains of capacity.

[mickb]

thanks Billo I didnt know you were involved. Bloody hell mate, 444 safari's, 500 A2, 500 SW you are into all the cool stuff.

Getting back to my first question, would love to know the easiest bolt action to convert. If anyone has a tikka and wants me to send half a dozen 444 marlin dummy rounds to test the magazine situation let me know.

[mickb]

btw what is the safe max pressure rating of the No.4 enfield action? I know it was used at one point with 7.62 nato but it must have been pushing the limit no?

[mickb]

M17/P14 ?
I have never really thought about those actions because they are variations of the original P13 action that was dimensioned for what was in effect a "magnum" power cartridge.
The first challenge is to find a reasonably priced donor rifle.
The easier route is to start with an M17. The bolt face will need to be opened out to suit the 444 rim. You MIGHT have to 1, bevel the extractor claw 2, Use a P14 magazine 3, modify the feed ramp. You will also be able to fit a speed lock/ cock on opening kit.
If you start with a P14 you MIGHT have to 1, use an M17 extractor 2, use an M17 ejector 3, modify the feed ramp. You will not be able to fit a speed lock/ cock on opening kit as the protruding firing pin must be relied on for proper extraction and ejection.

Straightshooter our discussions on ballistics aside, this is the stuff I was hoping to hear about. A long way above my paygrade, So the m17 in your opinion is an easier go? Whats the best source of these, abusedguns.com? I guess the price has increased a lot for everything these days.

[bigrich]

thanks Billo I didnt know you were involved. Bloody hell mate, 444 safari's, 500 A2, 500 SW you are into all the cool stuff.

Getting back to my first question, would love to know the easiest bolt action to convert. If anyone has a tikka and wants me to send half a dozen 444 marlin dummy rounds to test the magazine situation let me know.

my opinion , FWIW , tikka is tooo damn light . i had a 9.3x62 sako 85 grizzly that i ran hot handloads in . and for the record it had a lot of freebore . so i was seating a lot further out for more powder capacity . and it wasn't bad to shoot cause it had a dense walnut stock and a bit of weight to it . a lighter rifle woulda been punishing . horses for coarses mate , but old school big game rifles were built at least to 91/2 to 10lb so they weren't too brutal on the shooter .
P14's have a bit of weight ,and have been done in 444 . hint just my 2 cents ......