Thinktank on 444 bolt action

[mickb]

Hi Gents, a bit above my paygrade but a few mates and I considering getting a 444 marlin bolt action done. Action choice is the main consideration.

I know the no.4 etc converts easily but looking for a high strength action to get the most out of the case.

Some other options were rhe Ruger gunsite scout which the yanks say will feed a 444 marlin out of the mag unaltered.

Also someone suggested a Tikka being a single stack magazine.... and plenty around second hand cheap.

Trying to get my heads around tikkas, I think 308 and 30-06 all have the same length actions, the difference is in magazines with different size spacers in them, is this correct?

Also are they all plastic magazines only? if anyone owns a tikka and wants a 444 dummy to test magazine feeding in let me know I will send one with a few bucks for your trouble,.

[straightshooter]

I bought my 444 Marlin in the mid 70's and I also went through a period of wondering about a bolt action conversion.
But the 70's and even into the late 80's were different times to now.
There were regular articles about conversion of Lee Enfields but the Rolls Royce conversion was a Siamese Mauser.
Today that would be out of question due to scarcity and price.
If I were contemplating a conversion along the lines you have indicated, bearing in mind that I am a lot older and (hopefully) a bit less dumber, I would seriously consider a rimless 444.
The 444 Marlin case is simply made from a rimmed 30-06 basic case shortened to 2.25".
So a 30-06 case can be easily necked up and shortened.
The only drawbacks would be that the case would have to headspace on the mouth so the case length would have to be strictly controlled, you would need a custom reamer and you cannot use a crimp. The only change in reloading gear would be using a 30-06 shell holder.
There are still plenty of M98's of no collector vale offered for sale for relatively cheap and the only mod that might be needed to the action is to modify the feed ramp.
Because of the strength of the M98 and with the large diameter of the barrel tenon you could regularly run pressures in the region of 60 000 PSI if you can find the right powder bullet combo.

[Wyliecoyote]

Dump the idea of using 444 brass and use rimless 30/06 brass sized up and trimmed instead which is a lot cheaper than running 444 brass. That will feed flawlessly in any unmodified 30/06 length action. Otherwise you will have feed issues like forever as well as round number restriction in most magazines.

[mickb]

Thanks but not interested in wildcats fellas, have done that route with bigbores. custom reamers, custom dies, headspacing on case mouths( frought with precisionn pitfalls) modifying cases,also big delays, working up unknown data. Rather just have a gunsmith make the gun work, then plug regular 444 into it

[Wyliecoyote]

Thanks but not interested in wildcats fellas, have done that route with bigbores. custom reamers, custom dies, headspacing on case mouths( frought with precisionn pitfalls) modifying cases,also big delays, working up unknown data. Rather just have a gunsmith make the gun work, then plug regular 444 into it

Same reamer, same dies but will need an intermediate expander to neck up the 30/06 cases, different shell holder exact same load data if you want to go pedestrian lever gun speeds. Way way stronger brass potential that will last longer and give more velocity over 444 brass, especially Remington which is junk but in fairness all 444 brass is rated to low pressure as it is presumed to be used in a lever gun at lever gun speeds. As for accuracy and running headspace off the case mouth, my 338 Whisper puts 300 grain Sierra's into sub half inch at 200 yards, straight wall rimless case headspaced off the mouth in a Rem 700 action.

What you are looking at here has been commonplace in the US where rednecks do it cause they can. The rub is it can be done with stock 444 brass in a Springfield or some other Mauser with a cut out for the extraction claw that restricts pressure so you gain nothing over a lever gun except for maybe better accuracy which I doubt could be achieved in something like a SMLE . Basically an exercise to be done if you hate levers. But with something like 30/06 Lapua or RWS brass and no extractor cut-out in the chamber and set into a good Ruger, Remington or Tikka, you can run to 60,000 psi with 300 grain jacketed bullets using something like 50+ grains of 2207 for 2400 fps.

Now how do I know all this specifically? Some of you may recall the NT years back had a very dumb caliber restriction to hunt buff that basically made things like clunker 444s and 45/70s about all you could use where even those were velocity restricted. These days common sense has prevailed, buff are vermin and you can use a real cartridge. So while doing my time under well known gunsmith Les Popham, the guy who built all of Dick Eussen's dangerous game rifles that were often shown in Aussie gun rags, we built me a 444 on 30/06 brass in a bolt gun because at that period I didn't really see myself as the lever gun type. The gun was ready right about the time NT saw sanity and i shot all my buff with a 375 HH. So I have been down this road.

[bigrich]

Thanks but not interested in wildcats fellas, have done that route with bigbores. custom reamers, custom dies, headspacing on case mouths( frought with precisionn pitfalls) modifying cases,also big delays, working up unknown data. Rather just have a gunsmith make the gun work, then plug regular 444 into it

i'm with you on this . wildcats are all well and good , but the amount of stuffing around can be a PITA . another option for rimmed 444 would be 303 P14 . excessively overengineered , strong actions . the action of choice for accurate big game rifles back in the day . don't fall for the eddystone being brittle either, talk to a reputable gunsmith . hope this helps .

[mickb]

Same reamer, same dies but will need an intermediate expander to neck up the 30/06 cases,

yeah not overly keen on additional steps and custom reamers. Thats not the same thing

different shell holder exact same load data if you want to go pedestrian lever gun speeds.
Way way stronger brass potential that will last longer and give more velocity over 444 brass, especially Remington which is junk but in fairness all 444 brass is rated to low pressure as it is presumed to be used in a lever gun at lever gun speeds.

Blokes have had 444marlin well over 50PKSI on single shots, starline is solid brass. There are projects running 444 at 4000ftlbs on Bergaras over at Aus hunt forums.

As for accuracy and running headspace off the case mouth, my 338 Whisper puts 300 grain Sierra's into sub half inch at 200 yards, straight wall rimless case headspaced off the mouth in a Rem 700 action. What you are looking at here has been commonplace in the US where rednecks do it cause they can.
BThe rub is it can be done with stock 444 brass in a Springfield or some other Mauser with a cut out for the extraction claw that restricts pressure so you gain nothing over a lever gun except for maybe better accuracy which I doubt could be achieved in something like a SMLE Basically an exercise to be done if you hate levers. But with something like 30/06 Lapua or RWS brass and no extractor cut-out in the chamber and set into a good Ruger, Remington or Tikka, you can run to 60,000 psi with 300 grain jacketed bullets using something like 50+ grains of 2207 for 2400 fps.

Sounds like a good wildcat but not after the complexity. If I wanted I could get a smith to wildcat a 300 Weatherby case or even 416 rigby as parent case off a CZ550 action and beat both the 444 and the 444-06 out of the park. Or even do a 444-08 chey tac... Aussies arent babes in the woods when it comes to wildcatting, But not after that for this project.

. As to pressures a P.14 will have no problems running the 444 lot faster than any lever action..... It can run a 505 gibbs with its massive rim over 9500ftlbs.

No idea how much work is involved though on some of these actions....hence querying tikkas and Rugers or whatever needs the least mods to function.

[mickb]

Thanks but not interested in wildcats fellas, have done that route with bigbores. custom reamers, custom dies, headspacing on case mouths( frought with precisionn pitfalls) modifying cases,also big delays, working up unknown data. Rather just have a gunsmith make the gun work, then plug regular 444 into it

i'm with you on this . wildcats are all well and good , but the amount of stuffing around can be a PITA . another option for rimmed 444 would be 303 P14 . excessively overengineered , strong actions . the action of choice for accurate big game rifles back in the day . don't fall for the eddystone being brittle either, talk to a reputable gunsmith . hope this helps .

Thanks Bigrich, P14 is one of the options, just not sure how much work in it. The difference in hours spent between action A and action B could mean quite a few bucks. I asked some of the experienced smiths around, most have a lot of projects on. I'll keep researching what I can

[No1Mk3]

As bigrich posted, and you already considered, the P'14/M17 action can and has been used for 444 and 405 Win, But so has the Mosin, lot of mucking about with the magazine though.

[mickb]

Cheers No1mk3 didnt know there were others out there already.

[bigpete]

Can you actually neck a 30-06 case to .430 ? Biggest I've heard is 400 whelen and that's meant to be essentially straight walled

[Oldbloke]

45.70, wht not?

[straightshooter]

Can you actually neck a 30-06 case to .430 ? Biggest I've heard is 400 whelen and that's meant to be essentially straight walled

The 30-06 and the 444 have the same dimension at the base, so yes it is possible. It just means that the rimless 444 must headspace on the case mouth.
The 400 Whelen has a slight shoulder, so slight that reliable headspacing is a real problem.

[Billo]

I reckon the single stack magazine with a T3X would be a good combo, would feed Ok Id imagine

[bigrich]

Can you actually neck a 30-06 case to .430 ? Biggest I've heard is 400 whelen and that's meant to be essentially straight walled

i had a good coversation with my smith , a older fella who learnt gun smithing as a trade in denver colorado , about this sort of stuff . head spacing is the issue . he built a 375 whelen for himself for big game comps in 375 whelen . cause he had a 375 barrel on hand , and 375 projectiles aren't overly expensive compared to other medium/big bores . the cost of running some of these things is something i consider these days . prices are definately up !

anyway , the 375 whelen is about as far as you can go with reasonable head spacing on the 30-06 case . so he said. you could ackley the case , but feed issues could arise . i think a lot of the older big caliber conversions on P14's used single stack mags for reliable feeding . i think the 35 whelen is the pick of all these things . my 2cents

[mickb]

45.70, wht not?

Too slow.

[mickb]

I reckon the single stack magazine with a T3X would be a good combo, would feed Ok Id imagine

Arent the magazines all plastic though? I would have thought if anything needs to be tweaked its better off being metal as it least it can be worked? I'm asking btw, not telling, as not sure what the Tikka magazines are

[bigrich]

I reckon the single stack magazine with a T3X would be a good combo, would feed Ok Id imagine

Arent the magazines all plastic though? I would have thought if anything needs to be tweaked its better off being metal as it least it can be worked? I'm asking btw, not telling, as not sure what the Tikka magazines are

i agree , trying to modify a plastic mag would be a PITA
the other downside with a tikka , is they're light . i've shot one in 300 mag a few times and it wasn't pleasant .i'd hate to pull the trigger on one in 444
probably why you see a lot off T3's in 300mag for sale
with medium and big bores weight is your friend for managing recoil. it's why the old school big game guns used to have some weight about them . i had a sako grizzly in 9.3x62 , it was almost 9 pounds and not bad to shoot even with stout handloads

i'd suggest a P14 built by someone who knows their stuff would be a good choice . it's been done before . their strong accurate and have a bit of heft to them . timney make triggers for them, and dayton make cock on opening and speedlock kits for them . i got all those bits together for a churchill sporterised M17 i was going to build into a whelen . then i swapped it to a mate and he had all the bits put in and now has a very slick M17 . but it's been left as a 30-06

[Billo]

I reckon the single stack magazine with a T3X would be a good combo, would feed Ok Id imagine

Arent the magazines all plastic though? I would have thought if anything needs to be tweaked its better off being metal as it least it can be worked? I'm asking btw, not telling, as not sure what the Tikka magazines are

plenty of aftermarket magazine available for Tikka's

[mickb]

thanks fellas. yeah the P14 can handler the largest rimless elephant guns so I know 444 would be a breeze, but how much work is in it is the question. I'm chasing a pretty simply conversion here, well as simple as possible. No.4, ruger gunsite and Tikka sound like they are almost plug and play with a new barrel and some tweaking. I know some of the P14/m17 safari guns out there run $4-6k+ and that way out of my paygrade. maybe I'm not being realistic though. id actually keep as much original as possible, Im not after fancy

[bigpete]

45.70, wht not?

Too slow.

How do you figure that ?

[bigrich]

thanks fellas. yeah the P14 can handler the largest rimless elephant guns so I know 444 would be a breeze, but how much work is in it is the question. I'm chasing a pretty simply conversion here, well as simple as possible. No.4, ruger gunsite and Tikka sound like they are almost plug and play with a new barrel and some tweaking. I know some of the P14/m17 safari guns out there run $4-6k+ and that way out of my paygrade. maybe I'm not being realistic though. id actually keep as much original as possible, Im not after fancy

PM sent

[mickb]

45.70, wht not?

Too slow.

How do you figure that ?

Just regarding big game bullets,

444 on strong actions reach 4200ftlbs, a 410 grain jacketed bullet 2150fps, ballistic coefficient .320. Achieves minimum for African countries, recreates original 404 jeffery load and the 450-400 nitro express.

45-70 will always be more powerful on same action, however the bigger bore means it cant drive bullets as long to the same speed. The same BC bullet in a 45-70 weighs about 480 grains, it cant run as fast. It equates nothing in safari equivalents but an underloaded 458 win mag....

. Does it matter in real life effectiveness? Probably not, but just doesnt do it for me.

[bigpete]

45.70, wht not?

Too slow.

How do you figure that ?

Just regarding big game bullets,

444 on strong actions reach 4200ftlbs, a 410 grain jacketed bullet 2150fps, ballistic coefficient .320. Achieves minimum for African countries, recreates original 404 jeffery load and the 450-400 nitro express.

45-70 will always be more powerful on same action, however the bigger bore means it cant drive bullets as long to the same speed. The same BC bullet in a 45-70 weighs about 480 grains, it cant run as fast. It equates nothing in safari equivalents but an underloaded 458 win mag....

. Does it matter in real life effectiveness? Probably not, but just doesnt do it for me.

Might want to look those figures up a bit more. A 45-70 built on a strong action can drive a heavier bullet faster than a 444. Even the ADI manual has the 45-70 pushing 250gn bullets at over 2600 while the 444 only achieves 2550 with 200gn pills. I know what I'd go for...

[mickb]

Might want to look those figures up a bit more. A 45-70 built on a strong action can drive a heavier bullet faster than a 444. Even the ADI manual has the 45-70 pushing 250gn bullets at over 2600 while the 444 only achieves 2550 with 200gn pills. I know what I'd go for...

Mate if you are quoting ADI data you dont know what the discussion is about. This isnt about lever actions at 42KPSI, its pushing the cases 50KPSI+ on bolt actions, bullets seated out, long throated.

At those pressures the 444 can push a 410 grain bullet( .320 sectional density) to 2150fps.

Do the math yourself, plug in the bullet weight for 45-70 that corresponds to .320 SD ( already told you above) and tell me if you reckon at 45-70 can push it 2150fps. It would be 4900+ ftlbs, upper 458 win mag power.

No offence but this isnt a 45-70 vs 444 thread anywa, its technical gunsmithing for 444 actions

[bigpete]

Mate,I've done the research. And I'm not talking about lever actions. And YOU'RE the one who made the statement that you didn't want a 45-70 because " it wasn't fast enough ".

Going outside of ADIs rather soft reloading data the hottest load I've managed to find for a 444 in a bolt action is 2050fps for a 310gn projectile. That's a long way short of of what a 45-70 will produce in a bolt action. To be fair,factory loads are a different case,most 45-70 loads are pretty piss poor

[Billo]

Bigpete a 444 Marlin can push a 410gr projectile well over 2000fps, as to modern 45-70 Max loads it top out at 45Kpsi, the 444 M is rated to 51.5K psi

theres is not a lot between when loaded to the max but the 444 is definitely flatter

Anyway both become redundant because the 60K psi 500S&W has about 10% more down range energy than both

[mickb]

Thanks Billo, hopefully we are all on board now

. The blokes at Aus hunting net are the the ones to have run a 444 marlin long throated on a CVA single shot( action rated to 60KPSI) to 2100fps with a 410 grain bullet for over 4000ftlbs with AR2206H. This was probably still under 50KPSI and only 22" barrel so it can go harder and this includes in bolt actions.

Far exceeds anything in the load books because the load books on 444 are meant for 42KPSI.No different from people taking low pressure old elephant gun cartridges like the 470 nitro and pushing them couple hundred fps faster on a ruger No.1.,

Pete, Now the 45-70 can also be increased on strong actions to high pressures, and yes always ends up more powerful than the 444( bigger bore, more powder) but it cant push the same SD bullet as fast. The 444 turns out to be faster across same SD( not weight Pete, SD!).

And as to 45-70, no I didnt mention it, someone else did, I just answered. But being a 444 thread I knew it would show up

[straightshooter]

M17/P14 ?
I have never really thought about those actions because they are variations of the original P13 action that was dimensioned for what was in effect a "magnum" power cartridge.
The first challenge is to find a reasonably priced donor rifle.
The easier route is to start with an M17. The bolt face will need to be opened out to suit the 444 rim. You MIGHT have to 1, bevel the extractor claw 2, Use a P14 magazine 3, modify the feed ramp. You will also be able to fit a speed lock/ cock on opening kit.
If you start with a P14 you MIGHT have to 1, use an M17 extractor 2, use an M17 ejector 3, modify the feed ramp. You will not be able to fit a speed lock/ cock on opening kit as the protruding firing pin must be relied on for proper extraction and ejection.

[bigrich]

Christ, what a can of worms. I saw a Mauser 98 for sale online the other day already built in 458 win mag . It’d be a lot less stuffing around.
Just saying……