Thinktank on 444 bolt action

[bigpete]

Christ, what a can of worms. I saw a Mauser 98 for sale online the other day already built in 458 win mag . It’d be a lot less stuffing around.
Just saying……

Whereabouts?

[mickb]

Christ, what a can of worms. I saw a Mauser 98 for sale online the other day already built in 458 win mag . It’d be a lot less stuffing around.
Just saying……

Every 444 topic in the history of the internet has 45-70 turn up with optional argument. I think it may be a pledge 45-70 owners are made to make when they buy one, to post on any 444 or 44 mag carbine thread in existence for ever.

Now it looks like 458 win mag is getting a look

[Billo]

I'd take a 458WM over an anaemic 45-70 every day of the week

[bigpete]

I'd take a 458WM over an anaemic 45-70 every day of the week

Bloody oath

[mickb]

well cant argue with the power

[bigrich]

Christ, what a can of worms. I saw a Mauser 98 for sale online the other day already built in 458 win mag . It’d be a lot less stuffing around.
Just saying……

Whereabouts?

usedguns . for sale at "the barn" . mauser 98 in a plastic stock, lyman peep sight , brno zkk barrel . the reason i noticed it is because it's $995 . the stock is weighted too apparently . dunno why ....

[bigpete]

Christ, what a can of worms. I saw a Mauser 98 for sale online the other day already built in 458 win mag . It’d be a lot less stuffing around.
Just saying……

Whereabouts?

usedguns . for sale at "the barn" . mauser 98 in a plastic stock, lyman peep sight , brno zkk barrel . the reason i noticed it is because it's $995 . the stock is weighted too apparently . dunno why ....

Yeah I saw it.
If I bought it the first thing I'd do is take those weights out. Completely unnecessary

[mickb]

another 444 thread hijacked by the .458 calibre. I believe that makes 378868847373 threads in the history of the internet.

[gunderson]

458 lott is a good option...

[mickb]

The 458 lott as well. I think we need to have something put into the site rules when you sign up to gun forums these days

Before posting about any large calibre:

1. Please consider if a 45-70 could do the job for you
2. If you have a 45-70 please ensure you are posting about it on any thread relating to 444marlin, also 45 colt and 44 magnum. Pictures of whatever cast load you are running with the fkn resultant waste of powder and extra recoil are welcomed.
3. If 45-70 is not enough for the OP, please recommend the holden commodore of all big game cartridges, the 458 win mag
4. Anyone on gunsmithing threads looking for specific technical advice on any calibre, read Line 1 and 3 again
5. If too many threads get through on unrelated calibres the management will issue 3 warnings, after which the subforum in question will be renamed
" Get the 45-70 "

[bigrich]

The 458 lott as well. I think we need to have something put into the site rules when you sign up to gun forums these days

Before posting about any large calibre:

1. Please consider if a 45-70 could do the job for you
2. If you have a 45-70 please ensure you are posting about it on any thread relating to 444marlin, also 45 colt and 44 magnum. Pictures of whatever cast load you are running with the fkn resultant waste of powder and extra recoil are welcomed.
3. If 45-70 is not enough for the OP, please recommend the holden commodore of all big game cartridges, the 458 win mag
4. Anyone on gunsmithing threads looking for specific technical advice on any calibre, read Line 1 and 3 again
5. If too many threads get through on unrelated calibres the management will issue 3 warnings, after which the subforum in question will be renamed
" Get the 45-70 "

awww, c'mon mick . we're only trying to help

me personally , i reckon ya need a 35 whelen........

[gunderson]

Has anyone considered the 416 Rigby?

[bigpete]

The 458 lott as well. I think we need to have something put into the site rules when you sign up to gun forums these days

Before posting about any large calibre:

1. Please consider if a 45-70 could do the job for you
2. If you have a 45-70 please ensure you are posting about it on any thread relating to 444marlin, also 45 colt and 44 magnum. Pictures of whatever cast load you are running with the fkn resultant waste of powder and extra recoil are welcomed.
3. If 45-70 is not enough for the OP, please recommend the holden commodore of all big game cartridges, the 458 win mag
4. Anyone on gunsmithing threads looking for specific technical advice on any calibre, read Line 1 and 3 again
5. If too many threads get through on unrelated calibres the management will issue 3 warnings, after which the subforum in question will be renamed
" Get the 45-70 "

awww, c'mon mick . we're only trying to help

me personally , i reckon ya need a 35 whelen........

Yup,whelen is the go

[bigrich]

Hang on , what were we talking about again……ha ha .

Actually this 444 topic is very interesting and I hope you pursue this project further mick

[mickb]

And btw nope the 35 Whelen is usually brought out to obstruct 358 winchester threads as a rule.

As to the project good advice from some posts above, but it looks like no gunsmiths at the moment are interested. So will play around with my 44 again

[straightshooter]

mickb
These types of threads seem to generate a process that follows what I call the hotrodders creed ie; some is good, more is better then too much is just right.
What this thread really boils down to is this. What is so lacking with the Marlin 444 lever rifle package that generates the perception that the 444 cartridge needs to be adapted to a bolt action?

[mickb]

makes it a different class of gun mate, safari capable, bullets of .3 sectional density at 2000fps+ , 40cal +. Can seat big game bullets to a COAL that wont run in a lever action. Is it necessary to do this, no, but its interesting. Regards hotrodding its a valid enough hobby I think, all the weatherby magnums, RUM, WSM, even 44mag, 357mag came from hotrodding some older case.The 45-70 itself is a hotrod in a lever action.

[Oldbloke]

Slightly off topic.
But I find this a classic case of "why bother".

Common cartridges are:
Cheaper ammo.
Cheaper components
Widely available.
Are popular because they work.

When you buy obscure cartridges you could be buying a headache or safe queen.

I understand there may be some nostalgia but often there are just better, cheaper options out there.

Horses for courses I guess.

My2c

[mickb]

Slightly off topic.
But I find this a classic case of "why bother".

Common cartridges are:
Cheaper ammo.
Cheaper components
Widely available.
Are popular because they work.

When you buy obscure cartridges you could be buying a headache or safe queen.

I understand there may be some nostalgia but often there are just better, cheaper options out there.

Horses for courses I guess.

My2c

Mate if why bother held true we would only have 50% the available calibres of today and 10% the forum content. The project is much like wildcatting for those who enjoy it. Arguments for its not being as cheap and easy as XYZ are the point.

No nostalgia involved, safari guns on the 444marlin arent any part of its history, its more like a wildcat in this guise. As to obscure, well as a safari gun , and compared to other guns in that class, apart from the 375 and maybe 458, its in the same class of avialabilty or better than a 416, 460, 404 jeff, 470 etc.

Light or medium game 44mag projectiles allow it to run cheaper than anything else on the thread too, 45-70 included.

[Oldbloke]

Go for it. Enjoy.

If you run outa ammo out in the bush, walk into the little general store. You'll get, 308, 243, 223, 30.06, 30.30 ammo etc. 444 maybe not?

[bigrich]

Go for it. Enjoy.

If you run outa ammo out in the bush, walk into the little general store. You'll get, 308, 243, 223, 30.06, 30.30 ammo etc. 444 maybe not?

you got a point OB . but i enjoy some of the oddball stuff and the history of some of them . i've had a 1947 brno 21H in 8x60 , built a 358win out of a old model 70 243 , and a few others . i've been combining collectability and practicality lately . the pride of my safe ATM is a south african musgrave , date inside the recoil pad is from 1967 , signed by B musgrave as well . it's in 308 so i don't cry if i lose brass with a 25" barrel it's got good FPS with handloads too

back on the 444 topic , MICK , THERE'S A LEE ENFEILD ON SSAA GUNSALES FOR SALE IN 444 ! i know it's only a enfeild , but it's not bad for the $1350 he wants considering it's got a red dot as well

[Wyliecoyote]

I found my data on the 444 i built years ago. I was mistaken in thinking i used 30/06 brass, it was 8x57 RWS cases which needed no cutting or trimming and just one pass in the dies to open them up, load and shoot. Won't list the data as it is waaay off the charts for 444 rimmed brass.
If i were to do it again i would go 9.3x62 brass left at full length. That would make for a serious buff or batang gun and better suited to a long action.

[mickb]

Go for it. Enjoy.

If you run outa ammo out in the bush, walk into the little general store. You'll get, 308, 243, 223, 30.06, 30.30 ammo etc. 444 maybe not?

you got a point OB . but i enjoy some of the oddball stuff and the history of some of them . i've had a 1947 brno 21H in 8x60 , built a 358win out of a old model 70 243 , and a few others .

Yeah it would be a bit limiting for a lot of folks to worry what some little outback store has. Where I hunt there arent any stores anyway. To be honest I dont know anyone who has ever run out of 444 or 9.3 x 74 or 30-40krag or 375ruger etc during a hunt. If you are silly enough to run out of your favorite calibre, pack more wisely next time

Thanks for the tip on the 444, will take a look.

[straightshooter]

The old chestnut regarding the availability of popular ammo at a small country store may have contained a modicum of truth 30+ years ago before we were blessed with the ever more restrictive firearm laws we now have. These days only a fool would not take adequate provisions for the amount of fun they hope to have on any particular outing.
mickb
I have trouble understanding your motivation with high SD projectiles for the 444. These days there does not seem to be much in the way of projectiles available that will fit your 2000+ fps plan that are not designed for rapid expansion. Years ago (70's 80's) there were FMJ 240 grain projectiles available that would travel right through a large pig south to north but they were not what one would call especially good game stoppers.

[Billo]

Any one with a custom chambering will also have custom hand loaded ammo.

i'd happily have a 444 Bolt gun in the safe thou I reckon a 338 Federal, a fast twist 375 Jaguar or a 400 Legend will beat it to the punch

[mickb]

The old chestnut regarding the availability of popular ammo at a small country store may have contained a modicum of truth 30+ years ago before we were blessed with the ever more restrictive firearm laws we now have. These days only a fool would not take adequate provisions for the amount of fun they hope to have on any particular outing.
mickb
I have trouble understanding your motivation with high SD projectiles for the 444. These days there does not seem to be much in the way of projectiles available that will fit your 2000+ fps plan that are not designed for rapid expansion. Years ago (70's 80's) there were FMJ 240 grain projectiles available that would travel right through a large pig south to north but they were not what one would call especially good game stoppers.

Hi mate the projectiles the fellas running this setup are 425 westley richards bullets( an elephant gun with actual .435 cal bullets starting) swaged down. These are made by woodleigh, bertram also hawk in the states. The woodliegh and betram bullets are 400-410 grains, hawk does a variety of weights. Some blokes in Australia have the equipment to do so.

Fellas on aus hunt running the '444 safari' say they are emphatic killers at 2100fps on scrub bulls so far, which is probably no surprise as power and calibre is very close to original 404 jeffery and 450-400 nitro.

Billo, that gets 4000ftlbs energy+, completely dominates the 400legend, 338 federal etc.

Its an african country legal elephant class rifle. All the parametres, 4000 energy,40+cal, 400 grain bullets, .300 sectional density are fulfilled.

[Stoney]

I have been following this post with some interest thinking about what I could rechamber a spare Winchester P14 action that I have into. The .444 really got me going. I was having a look at what cases I have laying around and such. I have heaps and heaps of 30\30 cases and I like the .358 cal so I reckon 360 Buckhammer could be the go for me. Build your 444 mickb sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do. I built a 7x57R on a No4 action, TSE barrel twist suitable for 140grainers, shoots a dream.

[mickb]

Thanks Stoney, yes it seems obscure and extreme to some but putting it with its class in this guise, aka a safari rifle, is it any more weird or difficult to feed than a 375 ruger or 416 weatherby?

There are blokes on this forum with 500 jeffery and 505 gibbs, vastly more expensive and complicated jobs and when they mention them, no one bats on eye. Look at billos 500 S&W thread, way more obscure calibre, much harder to find components, but he got pats on the back for 2 whole pages.

Mention a 444 marlin daring to climb out of its lever action roots and you can see the result above, two pages of very spirited duelling. Breaking it down its essentially a cheap as dirt single shot than can be converted to an elephant gun and with brass and dies still comes under $1000. Try that with any other calibre.

[straightshooter]

mickb
I hope you realise there are double rifles made for the 444.
Although they are not cheap, what better implement could you choose for your "safari" rifle.
At least they will retain their value compared to a jury rigged conversion.

[mickb]

mickb
I hope you realise there are double rifles made for the 444.
Although they are not cheap, what better implement could you choose for your "safari" rifle.
At least they will retain their value compared to a jury rigged conversion.

mate the double rifle in 444 marlin has to run at conservative pressures, too weak an action for this idea, not safari capable. This project needs bolt action or strong single shots, 50K+ psi.

As to 'jury rigged', not sure what you mean by that as it wont be any more ' jury rigged' than a bloke getting a custom 6.5 creedmore or 404 jeffery done