Re run in barrels

[mausermate]

There has been a theory that a barrel can be re run in, even if it was not performed correctly in the first place from new.

I have followed the break in process with a few second hand rifles I have purchased and have got good results but not sure if I just finally got them clean or actually removed some imperfections. I don't own a bore scope.

Any one got anything to add to the theory?

[VICHunter]

I have followed the break in process with a few second hand rifles I have purchased and have got good results but not sure if I just finally got them clean or actually removed some imperfections.

Personally I'm not convinced about all the elaborate run in methods people put themselves through. Clean it, start shooting and it'll sort itself out IMO.

For the sake of conversation though, what's the break in process you followed for these puppies?

[on_one_wheel]

My understanding is that a properly run in barrel will last longer and be less prone to copper foweling because you have smoothed out the imperfections and limited the amount of microscopic galling.

[mausermate]

Correct!

My take on the barrel run in procedure is that even the most well made barrels have imperfections.

By firing a bullet down the barrel and then cleaning it you effectively use the bullet as a lapping tool. This potentially removes any bumps, jags etc that have been left from the manufacturing process.

It stands to reason that this can therefore be done even on an old barrel and the reason why I asked the question.

There is no doubt in my mind and from my experience that a barrel that has been well run in and has fewer imperfections remains cleaner longer as it does not pick up as many portions of the bullet in the barrel as it passes because it is smoother. ie.The smoother the barrel internally the longer it will remain clean.

My experience has told me that dirty barrels do not shoot as well as clean ones.

[VICHunter]

My understanding is that a properly run in barrel will last longer and be less prone to copper foweling because you have smoothed out the imperfections and limited the amount of microscopic galling.

What's the definition of "proper" then?

It's anywhere between 20 - 600 bullets and cleaning it 5 to 50 times depending on who you ask.

I get the concept, but surely these imperfections smooth out just as well with regular shooting?

I'd rather shoot and run it in as I go then waste hours and rounds punching dirt at the range for some as yet quasi-proven process.

[VICHunter]

By firing a bullet down the barrel and then cleaning it you effectively use the bullet as a lapping tool. This potentially removes any bumps, jags etc that have been left from the manufacturing process.

It stands to reason that this can therefore be done even on an old barrel and the reason why I asked the question.

I don't disagree with anything in particular there, but that's really the standard copy/paste explanation which is very vague.

No specifics and no re-reproducible test e.g.

• How many bullets are required to lap the barrel? 10? 100? 500? The barrel is harder than the jackets so how much copper is needed to eventually wear down a bur?
• If you don't have a bore scope which 99.9% of shooters don't, how do you know when you're done?
• Unless you've got a before and after of the barrel how do you know you did anything?
• Unless you're shooting the same amount of bullets, cleaning it and measuring the amount of copper that comes out how do you know how much 'less' there is after break-in?

Without any of that, it could just as easily be a placebo. You think it's cleaning easier afterwards because you've done all this work, but if you can't measure it?

IMO if it was as cut and dry as this all the manufacturers could easily have some demo off 'this is a run in barrel compared to a non-run in barrel' and show the results, and they would be able to do it over and over with multiple barrels.

I'm yet to see anything like this.

Not having a go here by the way, just my thoughts.

I'd agree a barrel might have a little run in period, but you might as well just use your rifle as normal to get through this instead.

IMO.

[Tiiger]

I have followed the break in process with a few second hand rifles I have purchased and have got good results but not sure if I just finally got them clean or actually removed some imperfections. I don't own a bore scope.

Any one got anything to add to the theory?

The two possibilities in my mind would be

1) You got a filthy barrel clean and it's shooting better.
or
2) The rifle wasn't used enough to wear down any imperfections and you're doing it for the first time.

For #2 - Shooting is shooting and wear is wear. It's not like if you say, 'ok gun, this is shooting, not running you in' any burs in the barrel stay there. Then when you tell 'ok gun, this is running you in, please let your burs wear down' they start to disappear.

Know what I mean? Not like your bullets are doing something the lasts blokes weren't.

Number 2 assumes everything's still in good enough condition. If a barrel's been abused or worn or bulged or anything like that, repeating a run-in procedure isn't going to fix any of that of course.

My 2c.

[Seconds]

I'm more or less on par with what the guys are pitching above about using it and letting it find it's own balance.

Like the guys have said your still sending bullets out. It could be 50 into the dirt for nothing, or into a target working on your technique or into game for your dinner.

The rifle still has 50 bullets of wear in it. Maybe clean it after every 10 or so for the first 50 if it makes you comfortable. For a new rifle I normally clean it, put one box through, clean it again, then I'm off.

This 1 shot, clean, 2 shot, clean, 5 shot clean etc. etc.... Not for me.

[mausermate]

Yeh VIC, totally agree but I've generally got mine done in 20 shots or so. I've got my own private range so a new gun, cleaning rod, a few mates, a BBQ and a....bottle of lemonade makes for a good afternoon.

I am a definite that running in a new gun properly makes it easier to clean and fouls less. Also, good barrel manufacturers preach the process. I am just not sure if it works on older barrels that have previously been neglected or poorly run in.

Lets assume the imperfections are there and that the inside of the new barrel is rough. Particles of the fired bullet get caught on the rough bits and each time another bullet is fired more is caught on the rough barrel and also the particles of the previous bullet. More shots are fired without cleaning and the fouling builds up.

I am also guessing that pressure and heat would vary up the length of the barrel if the fouling was not distributed evenly. Does this have a long term effect on your barrel? If so, can this be remedied?

Can we go back to the start. get the smooth mirror finish? or is the damage done? have the edges been smoothed a little, bumps pressed in hard, have we created a situation where the inside is now smooth but bumpy. No turning back.

Or, am I just making all this up and none of it matters?

The question has some merit as it gives rise and fall to the second hand sale. The bloke that advertises "properly run in" does that mean that's a good thing or it doesn't matter. The bloke that knows nothing about guns, bought one, fired 50 rounds and wants to sell....did he run it in, probably not. Has he stuffed the barrel, can we fix it or doesn't it matter?

[on_one_wheel]

Someone here pointed me to a forum that is dedicated to f class , bench rest and the alike. Aftre spending some time reading thier posts it became apparant that they are mad keen on running in thier barrels.

Something tells me those blokes know what they are talking about.

[chilliman]

There has been a theory that a barrel can be re run in, even if it was not performed correctly in the first place from new.

if that is the case then there is no need to run in the barrel from new, you can do it anytime. so if taken to a bit of an extreme, you could fire a few thousand rounds, then, provided the next 50 rounds are done in accordance with accepted 'run-in' procedures would mean you have run the barrel in?

I would say this would not work and seems to suggest that either you do it from new or not at all... I reckon it's an urban myth - call Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman stat!

[VICHunter]

Also, good barrel manufacturers preach the process.

If a barrel manufacturer gives instructions on what to do with one of their barrels I certainly won't dispute it. I've read a few myself though and they've typically been very different to what the self-proclaimed experts on the net say.

My summary on the few I've read would be that it's more about cleaning the barrel and putting a modest amount of rounds through before cleaning ones or twice to iron out any prominent burs and the like. 15 or 20 rounds etc. Not a hundred + like some people say is essential.

Lets assume the imperfections are there and that the inside of the new barrel is rough. Particles of the fired bullet get caught on the rough bits and each time another bullet is fired more is caught on the rough barrel and also the particles of the previous bullet. More shots are fired without cleaning and the fouling builds up.

I am also guessing that pressure and heat would vary up the length of the barrel if the fouling was not distributed evenly. Does this have a long term effect on your barrel? If so, can this be remedied?

Can we go back to the start. get the smooth mirror finish? or is the damage done? have the edges been smoothed a little, bumps pressed in hard, have we created a situation where the inside is now smooth but bumpy. No turning back.

At the end of the day your ramming 1 bit of metal down another bit of metal behind a flaming hot jet of pressurised gas. There is going to be wear, how 'perfect' do you need the barrel to be?

With sensible use and cleaning routine any barrel will give you good life. Personally I just clean my rifle after each shoot and that's enough. I don't shoot at the range much any more but if I was going to be shooting all day long for some reason I'd probably give it a quick clean after 50 rounds and give it a rest for a while before resuming. (TBH I'm picking a number out of the air a bit there).

That's enough for me. Personally I don't think there is anything to be gained by going to obsessive levels or cleaning and running in.

The bloke that advertises "properly run in" does that mean that's a good thing or it doesn't matter.

To me, that would mean the guy has probably treated the barrel well, so that's a plus. By that though I just mean it was cleaned before shooting for the first time and hasn't been shot abusively or gone without cleaning for long periods. That fact that it's been 'properly run in' doesn't do anything for me though.

The bloke that knows nothing about guns, bought one, fired 50 rounds and wants to sell....did he run it in, probably not. Has he stuffed the barrel, can we fix it or doesn't it matter?

For me personally, if I was confident he'd cleaned it thoroughly to get the factory grease etc out of it before firing 50 round through it wouldn't put me off.

Not trying to argue all your points here or anything, just my opinions on these things

[jastreb]

I have been shooting .22s and air rifles all my life and recently acquired the two top rifles in my signature. They are still brand new and have not been fired. all I have done is cleaned them up as they do get fired at the factory and the steyr came with a target showing grouping in the box.

So being completely green with centerfires, I have been doing quite a bit of research on the whole barrel break in procedure. After all the reading I decided that I will break in the two rifles in a fashion that benchrest shooters normally do. Just for peace of mind and because I am a bit of a perfectionist.

However recently I watched a video on youtube describing something the guy calls "copper equilibrium" Something that I had not come across before on any australian forums or even anywhere else. I would be interested in what you guys think of what he says. I think it makes sense. The Copper equilibrium just means that you break in the new barrel much less aggressively than what a benchrest shooter would. This will mean that post break-in the copper will build up much quicker in your rifle but once it reaches a certain level it stays there for many shots giving you a great shot to shot consistency. he basically suggests you dont get rid off the copper buildup until it reaches a level where it start impacting accuracy. When that happens, you clean your rifle with the usual carbon and copper remover, and when you start shooting your cleaned barrel again, you will be able to reach that copper equilibrium quicker.

The benchrest barrel break-in (especially one he describes that uses a bore abrasive which i would never do) once completed, means that you will get less consistency between shots and you will not get to that equilibrium stage for many many more shots. But benchrest shooter don't care about that so much as they clean regularly anyway.

So if you intend to hunt with a rifle and you want to make sure you hit the target with your first shot every time you will want not to do a benchrest style of break-in. You shoot it till it ...Ahh screw it. Watch the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXf6oZz ... V&index=11

[VICHunter]

I think it makes sense.

Sorry to keep being the voice of doubt on these things but...

With these things there are lots of ideas which make sense, whether or not they make a difference is something different. I've yet to see anything I'd call proof.

Just my opinion as always.

Anyway. If it gives you peace of mind then that is reason enough to do it though.

Enjoy the 2 new shooters

[Deco]

What're the two new toys, Jastreb?

[mausermate]

With these things there are lots of ideas which make sense, whether or not they make a difference is something different. I've yet to see anything I'd call proof.

When I run in a new barrel I find that it can take somewhere between 5 and 10 shots, cleaning between each shot, before the barrel no longer shows traces of fouling from one shot. I then go to 3 shot cleans then 5 shot cleans. It can take a long time, some barrels have taken me a full day and 50 rounds before I can fire a 5 shot string and find no evidence of fouling from those shots. All barrels are different and some have taken much less time.
I find a significant difference in the amount of fouling in my barrels that I have taken the care to run in compared to the ones I have not. Both my target rifles and my hunting rifles shoot for longer before I notice evidence of fouling. I notice that my clean barrels shoot better and I also notice that I get more life from my carefully run in barrels.
I am not sure if that is proof! you be the judge.
With regard to second hand barrels. I am not sure about the re run in process. I am getting mixed results and proof that a re run in works or has any merit is hard to determine.

[jastreb]

What're the two new toys, Jastreb?

The first two rifles listed in my signature below

So my first two centerfire rifles EVER!. Before that I have been shooting air rifles and rimfire all my life. So I have been on a long and painful path I must say f researching things I need to know about taking care of centerfires.