303\30

Improving and repairing firearms. Rifle bedding, barrel work, stock replacement and other ways to improve your firearms.

Re: 303\30

Post by bigrich » 13 Apr 2022, 9:29 am

bladeracer wrote:
bigrich wrote:i've considered 7x57r blade , but like the idea of 30 cal better . much wider choice in 30 cal over 303 , which is the prime consideration in my plans . 303 projectiles are just about unobtainable for me at the moment , but there's still plenty of 30 cal stuff about . 303 brass is much easier to find than 7x57R as well
:thumbsup:


I'm sure any barrel maker can ream you a .303 chamber in a .308" barrel.

Are you building this for shooting steel and paper or for hunting?

I don't think I've tried any .308" bullets in the .303's, it's possible a heavy flat-base bullet might work okay, I must try that. I know people have used .308" bullets relatively successfully in Mosins, though probably not for competition.

7x57R brass is not common, but is around. I ordered some from Rebels a couple years ago.


yeah , no dramas reaming a 30 cal barrel with a 303 reamer . that's the plan . it was also done around the early 1900's by british gun maker "purdey". as the "purdey 30" . even has a nice rhyme to it :lol:

7x57R is increasingly rare , i want to stick with stuff with obtainable brass or easily made brass . in the past i've done 308 to 358 , and 223 to 6x45 is so easy it's suprising it's not more common . sizing the 303 down to 30 cal shouldn't give any problems . it's not much of a jump . seeing how i own a 30-06 it doubles up on available projectiles in my cupboard . mind you , 303-25 or 7-30 waters has appeal as well . especially the 7-30 waters, low preasured and reasonably flat shooting for what it is . especially with spitzers in a martini . i already have a 7-08, so again projectile availabilty is good. 30-30 brass is not expensive or rare either .

i love dreaming up new projects . sights are a consideration . apparently the vernier adjustable peep sight of a canadian ross mk3 rifle goes straight on the old martini henry . but their impossible to find . maybe adapting the P14 style peep sight might work :unknown:

i'm open to ideas ...... :unknown:
User avatar
bigrich
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4005
Queensland

Re: 303\30

Post by in2anity » 13 Apr 2022, 10:43 am

bigrich wrote:Yeah, I had considered 30-30. From what research I’ve done on other forums, it’s just not fast enough to get a gain using ballistic tip projectiles. 303 British should give decent speed due to more case capacity.
I’m just looking for a old school rimmed cartridge for a martini Enfield that uses available projectiles and doesn’t require pistol powder. 303-30 seems to fit. There are other rarer rimmed cartridges from Europe, 9.3 x60-something. Having said that,35-303 would be interesting. Dunno how it would go feeding though. Martini actions big and small favour bottle shaped cartridge for feeding in the chamber. I’m open to ideas on another cartridge :thumbsup:


BR I crunched it last night and indeed squeezing 2500fps from a 155gr out of the 30-30 is just impossible, even with a 26" barrel. Best you'd do would probs be 2350fps and that's pushing it. You are right, 303 is a better option. I am still wondering about 303-30 dies though... I have have seen 303-30s on the line before - you must be able to get them made. Is simplex still around?
I'm a "salt on pizza" kinda guy...
User avatar
in2anity
Major
Major
 
Posts: 2792
New South Wales

Re: 303\30

Post by bigrich » 13 Apr 2022, 10:59 am

in2anity wrote:
bigrich wrote:Yeah, I had considered 30-30. From what research I’ve done on other forums, it’s just not fast enough to get a gain using ballistic tip projectiles. 303 British should give decent speed due to more case capacity.
I’m just looking for a old school rimmed cartridge for a martini Enfield that uses available projectiles and doesn’t require pistol powder. 303-30 seems to fit. There are other rarer rimmed cartridges from Europe, 9.3 x60-something. Having said that,35-303 would be interesting. Dunno how it would go feeding though. Martini actions big and small favour bottle shaped cartridge for feeding in the chamber. I’m open to ideas on another cartridge :thumbsup:


BR I crunched it last night and indeed squeezing 2500fps from a 155gr out of the 30-30 is just impossible, even with a 26" barrel. Best you'd do would probs be 2350fps and that's pushing it. You are right, 303 is a better option. I am still wondering about 303-30 dies though... I have have seen 303-30s on the line before - you must be able to get them made. Is simplex still around?


i'd do my homework , but i think a 30-30 die reamed out to 303 done the same time as the barrel is chambered sounds like a logical thing :thumbsup:
User avatar
bigrich
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4005
Queensland

Re: 303\30

Post by bladeracer » 13 Apr 2022, 1:11 pm

in2anity wrote:
bigrich wrote:Yeah, I had considered 30-30. From what research I’ve done on other forums, it’s just not fast enough to get a gain using ballistic tip projectiles. 303 British should give decent speed due to more case capacity.
I’m just looking for a old school rimmed cartridge for a martini Enfield that uses available projectiles and doesn’t require pistol powder. 303-30 seems to fit. There are other rarer rimmed cartridges from Europe, 9.3 x60-something. Having said that,35-303 would be interesting. Dunno how it would go feeding though. Martini actions big and small favour bottle shaped cartridge for feeding in the chamber. I’m open to ideas on another cartridge :thumbsup:


BR I crunched it last night and indeed squeezing 2500fps from a 155gr out of the 30-30 is just impossible, even with a 26" barrel. Best you'd do would probs be 2350fps and that's pushing it. You are right, 303 is a better option. I am still wondering about 303-30 dies though... I have have seen 303-30s on the line before - you must be able to get them made. Is simplex still around?


Do you need dies?
Just a standard .303 die with .306" expander on the mandrel should do the trick, unless the shoulder is different.
If the .303 die is not reducing the neck enough you could use any .308" die that has enough length and room for the .303 case to fit into it.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11299
Victoria

Re: 303\30

Post by bigrich » 13 Apr 2022, 4:29 pm

bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:
bigrich wrote:Yeah, I had considered 30-30. From what research I’ve done on other forums, it’s just not fast enough to get a gain using ballistic tip projectiles. 303 British should give decent speed due to more case capacity.
I’m just looking for a old school rimmed cartridge for a martini Enfield that uses available projectiles and doesn’t require pistol powder. 303-30 seems to fit. There are other rarer rimmed cartridges from Europe, 9.3 x60-something. Having said that,35-303 would be interesting. Dunno how it would go feeding though. Martini actions big and small favour bottle shaped cartridge for feeding in the chamber. I’m open to ideas on another cartridge :thumbsup:


BR I crunched it last night and indeed squeezing 2500fps from a 155gr out of the 30-30 is just impossible, even with a 26" barrel. Best you'd do would probs be 2350fps and that's pushing it. You are right, 303 is a better option. I am still wondering about 303-30 dies though... I have have seen 303-30s on the line before - you must be able to get them made. Is simplex still around?


Do you need dies?
Just a standard .303 die with .306" expander on the mandrel should do the trick, unless the shoulder is different.
If the .303 die is not reducing the neck enough you could use any .308" die that has enough length and room for the .303 case to fit into it.


not sure about 308 dies blade . the taper and shoulder might clash with the more pronounced taper of the 303 . i'll get something to work :thumbsup:
User avatar
bigrich
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4005
Queensland

Re: 303\30

Post by bladeracer » 13 Apr 2022, 6:50 pm

bigrich wrote:not sure about 308 dies blade . the taper and shoulder might clash with the more pronounced taper of the 303 . i'll get something to work :thumbsup:


I wasn't referring to .308Win dies, though they should work fine as the .308 is a significantly shorter case with a larger shoulder so it shouldn't touch the .303 case except around the neck.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11299
Victoria

Re: 303\30

Post by in2anity » 13 Apr 2022, 8:14 pm

Would the 308 collet die work without affecting the shoulder?
I'm a "salt on pizza" kinda guy...
User avatar
in2anity
Major
Major
 
Posts: 2792
New South Wales

Re: 303\30

Post by bigrich » 14 Apr 2022, 6:52 am

bladeracer wrote:
bigrich wrote:not sure about 308 dies blade . the taper and shoulder might clash with the more pronounced taper of the 303 . i'll get something to work :thumbsup:


I wasn't referring to .308Win dies, though they should work fine as the .308 is a significantly shorter case with a larger shoulder so it shouldn't touch the .303 case except around the neck.


i get it now . you were refering to using a 308 die to just do the neck . i was thinking in terms of reaming a FLS 30-30 die to make a FLS die for 30-303. any which way i can get something sorted . gotta get a rifle now to start this build . i love discussing the tech side of this, but i've now got to commit financially :roll:

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:
User avatar
bigrich
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4005
Queensland

Re: 303\30

Post by straightshooter » 14 Apr 2022, 7:04 am

Simplest thing is to stick with 303 dies and just use a 308 expander ball or in the case of a collet die a 308 mandrel or in the case of bushing die a suitable bushing.
In most cases the spare parts are readily available.
"There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the real labor of thinking." Sir Joshua Reynolds
“No nation can be freer than its most oppressed, richer than its poorest, or wiser than its most ignorant.” Henry George
straightshooter
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1030
New South Wales

Re: 303\30

Post by bladeracer » 14 Apr 2022, 9:34 am

in2anity wrote:Would the 308 collet die work without affecting the shoulder?


I have .308 collet dies so I might be able to try it, if I can find a few minutes to try :-)
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11299
Victoria

Re: 303\30

Post by straightshooter » 14 Apr 2022, 11:11 am

bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:Would the 308 collet die work without affecting the shoulder?


I have .308 collet dies so I might be able to try it, if I can find a few minutes to try :-)

One has to be conscious of how a Lee collet die works.
The 303 case is a little longer than a 308 case so things will get squeezed in the wrong places.
It might however work acceptably if you fabricate a washer about 0.220" thick to sit on the shell holder over the 303 case.
"There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the real labor of thinking." Sir Joshua Reynolds
“No nation can be freer than its most oppressed, richer than its poorest, or wiser than its most ignorant.” Henry George
straightshooter
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1030
New South Wales

Re: 303\30

Post by in2anity » 14 Apr 2022, 1:11 pm

Ok just had yet another "I'm an idiot" moment - how about this - a Lee 303 collet die, only with the 308 mandrel screwed in instead of the factory 303 mandrel (the mandrels are replaceable). Just FLS with a standard 303, then collet die with aforementioned it to bring the neck down to 308. Bob's your uncle.
I'm a "salt on pizza" kinda guy...
User avatar
in2anity
Major
Major
 
Posts: 2792
New South Wales

Re: 303\30

Post by bladeracer » 14 Apr 2022, 7:42 pm

straightshooter wrote:One has to be conscious of how a Lee collet die works.
The 303 case is a little longer than a 308 case so things will get squeezed in the wrong places.
It might however work acceptably if you fabricate a washer about 0.220" thick to sit on the shell holder over the 303 case.


Yes, it will require a spacer to operate the collet.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11299
Victoria

Re: 303\30

Post by bladeracer » 14 Apr 2022, 7:45 pm

in2anity wrote:Ok just had yet another "I'm an idiot" moment - how about this - a Lee 303 collet die, only with the 308 mandrel screwed in instead of the factory 303 mandrel (the mandrels are replaceable). Just FLS with a standard 303, then collet die with aforementioned it to bring the neck down to 308. Bob's your uncle.


Do you mean put a .308 collet and expander into a .303 collet die? The collet sizes the neck down, then you draw the expander back through to open it up to size to hold the bullet.
That may well work, but it might be sufficient to simply remove the expander and leave the neck under-sized by the .303 die.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 11299
Victoria

Re: 303\30

Post by in2anity » 14 Apr 2022, 8:49 pm

bladeracer wrote:Do you mean put a .308 collet and expander into a .303 collet die? The collet sizes the neck down, then you draw the expander back through to open it up to size to hold the bullet.
That may well work, but it might be sufficient to simply remove the expander and leave the neck under-sized by the .303 die.


Nope I mean a smaller 308 mandrel in the 303 collet. I’m gonna try it.
I'm a "salt on pizza" kinda guy...
User avatar
in2anity
Major
Major
 
Posts: 2792
New South Wales

Re: 303\30

Post by bigrich » 14 Apr 2022, 8:52 pm

i'm not a fan of lee collet dies . i have a hornady "neck size only" die in 30 cal . in the interests of keeping it simple (and cheap) i'm looking at trying to get a good second hand N01 mk3 H barrel , or a P14 303 barrel to screw on it . and just leave it british :P mind you , blade got in my head with 7x57R :lol:

oh , i scored a martini today . the receiver says it's a mk2 made in 1880 , and reworked to 303 in 1899 on the other side of the receiver . it's been sporterised . finish on the receiver is in excellent condition , clear original markings. lovely crisp trigger . no open sights , you can see where scope mounts were tacked on . but it looks like a easy clean up ;) . the rear stock is in good condition , the front stock is modified extensively . for the sprinter 303-25 barrel on it . with very good rifling :D . which opens up a can of worms as to whether i should leave it in 303-25 :roll:

the price, i swapped about $250 worth of second hand scope rings and bases :D . best laid plans ........ :lol:

:drinks: :drinks: :thumbsup:
User avatar
bigrich
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4005
Queensland

Re: 303\30

Post by in2anity » 14 Apr 2022, 9:04 pm

Just confirmed swapping the mandrels worked fine - the 308 mandrel yields plenty of enough neck tension for a 308 pill in the 303 brass. Perfect for the Martini action whereby you are single feeding anyway.
I'm a "salt on pizza" kinda guy...
User avatar
in2anity
Major
Major
 
Posts: 2792
New South Wales

Re: 303\30

Post by bigrich » 15 Apr 2022, 7:21 am

in2anity wrote:Just confirmed swapping the mandrels worked fine - the 308 mandrel yields plenty of enough neck tension for a 308 pill in the 303 brass. Perfect for the Martini action whereby you are single feeding anyway.


that's handy to know . good work in2anity , you've opened up my choices again :D it's fun working out wildcat cartridges . just because...... :D
User avatar
bigrich
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4005
Queensland

Re: 303\30

Post by bigrich » 15 Apr 2022, 9:46 am

i have found another solution for a 30 cal 303 . "306 confederate sabre" 303 case with 30-06 neck and shoulder . run the 30-06 reamer in short , and trim .170" of the bottom of a standard FLS 30-06 die . holds about a extra 5 grains of powder too :D there's also a 7mm confederate sabre using 7x57 dies , but it involves getting a modified reamer . 7x57R doesn't have as much rim size as a 303 case . there's not much meat from the base off the case to the edge of the rim is what i mean . wondering if extraction might be iffy :unknown:
User avatar
bigrich
Brigadier
Brigadier
 
Posts: 4005
Queensland

Re: 303\30

Post by Wrangler » 23 Sep 2022, 11:37 pm

Would 30/40 Krag be an option for your project ?
Very similar performance to 303 Brit . Rimmed case. 308 projectiles. Long neck for cast bullets. Brass availability???
Wrangler
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 14
New South Wales

Previous

Back to top
 
Return to Gunsmithing