What sort of lathe is needed?

Improving and repairing firearms. Rifle bedding, barrel work, stock replacement and other ways to improve your firearms.

What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by andym79 » 11 Nov 2014, 6:41 pm

Hi guys, what size lathe and what spindle size and RPM are needed to be able to thread and chamber barrels?

I am guessing at least 1" and ideally 75rpm or less? How long distance between centres (as you don't need a lot of the barrel to thread and chamber)?

I only have a $1000 to spare right now, but looking through new lathes I figure this would be nearer to what is needed a 12" X 36"
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L183#


$3000
am I right? Could you do with a smaller one or would this a minimum?
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Timb0 » 11 Nov 2014, 7:04 pm

Are you only buying a lathe to do this?
How often are you really going to do this sort of thing?
Have you got 3 phase power ?
Have you done much machining work ?
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Chronos » 11 Nov 2014, 7:22 pm

firstly do you have the skills to machine cut a thread on a barrel? just asking because i've had friends who have the cash to take on these jobs but not the skill or experience. i've seen trade qualified fitter machinists totally stuff up simple jobs because they were operating beyond their experience level

have you the measuring eqiuipment? dial indicators? micrometers? tension wrench? what about the cutting tools and the skill to grind them to the correct shape to match the existing thread?

i'd guess if you're starting out from scratch you'd spend your $1K on just measuring gear and tooling before you even get a lathe

not trying to put a damper on your enthusiasm but it sounds like you're trying to save a few hundred dollars by spending $3000-4000 on gear, IMHO



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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by MeccaOz » 11 Nov 2014, 7:30 pm

LOL, I'm guessing no one knows the answer to your question mate.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Chronos » 11 Nov 2014, 7:38 pm

MeccaOz wrote:LOL, I'm guessing no one knows the answer to your question mate.



well the answer is if you know what you're doing all you need is a 600mm bed, 1" spindle bore, a dial indicator, a 4 jaw chuck and spindle spider. then the lathe needs to have both metric and imperial feed screws depending on the thread, you'd get away with high speed tooling and appropriate tool holders.

but you cant just walk in off the sgtreet, buy a lathe and screw cut a barrel IMHO

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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Jack V » 11 Nov 2014, 7:43 pm

The size of the lathe and the diameter of the hollow spindle depends on how you want to thread and chamber .
If the hollow spindle is large enough to take the major barrel diameter and that lathe should be in most cases @ 38mm then you can put the whole barrel inside the spindle and use a spider on the end of the spindle to centre the muzzle end.
If you can only get the small end of the barrel inside the spindle then you can hold the chamber end on a steady rest further down the lathe bed.
An imperial lead screw is ok for gunsmith work as many actions have imperial threads . However you will only be able to use a threading dial and disengage the half nuts on imperial threads not metric . A far better option is to save a bit longer and buy the same basic lathe with a foot brake . This allows threading up to a shoulder without disengaging the half nuts and using a threading dial to pick up the start , on both metric and imperial threads .
240 volt motors are not instantly reversible on this lathe like a 3 phase motor would be. So the foot brake allows instant stop as the tool is withdrawn and then the lathe can be just started in reverse and go back to the start of the thread wind into the next cut and start in forward.
No threading dial or disengagement of half nuts required which makes Metric threading easy as Imperial . Also a foot brake is a huge safety feature .
This is a better setup for about the same price http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L681 At this price this is not a high quality lathe it's a Chinese one but it will do the job .
Although I do not recommend Hare and Forbes their service stinks .
Last edited by Jack V on 11 Nov 2014, 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Jack V » 11 Nov 2014, 7:59 pm

MeccaOz wrote:LOL, I'm guessing no one knows the answer to your question mate.

Sorry mate but you would be guessing wrong .
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by MeccaOz » 11 Nov 2014, 8:16 pm

Jack V wrote:
MeccaOz wrote:LOL, I'm guessing no one knows the answer to your question mate.

Sorry mate but you would be guessing wrong .



Laffin Jack V ... Actually I didnt know the answer but was trying to get others to answer his question instead of asking for his credentials. It's great that everyone told him, it's not just a matter of getting a lathe and bingo your in business, but answering the question kinda helps too.... Yes I can be an arse pain :lol: ... But it's happened to me too on many forums, so I know it's frustrating.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Timb0 » 12 Nov 2014, 1:03 am

You don't have to grind thread cutting tools you just buy a carbide one. You would probably need a 60 degree one as that does Unified fine & coarse, ISO metric fine & coarse. I think some of the British threads are 55.
The slower RPM the better 75rpm will probably do. Carbide tools would let you go a bit faster not that you would want to though.
I would try and buy a bigger lathe than you think you need. If you cant fit your barrel down the spindle, forget it.
I don't see much point in the foot brake. You should be cutting a relief groove between the shoulder and the thread before you start anyway.
You will need the correct size micometer, dial indicator, thread cutting tool, thread gauges, thread cutting gauge and the 4 jaw chuck, spindle spider as above. Sounds like you will need some reference books too.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Jack V » 12 Nov 2014, 2:00 pm

Timb0 wrote:You don't have to grind thread cutting tools you just buy a carbide one. You would probably need a 60 degree one as that does Unified fine & coarse, ISO metric fine & coarse. I think some of the British threads are 55.
The slower RPM the better 75rpm will probably do. Carbide tools would let you go a bit faster not that you would want to though.
I would try and buy a bigger lathe than you think you need. If you cant fit your barrel down the spindle, forget it.
I don't see much point in the foot brake. You should be cutting a relief groove between the shoulder and the thread before you start anyway.
You will need the correct size micometer, dial indicator, thread cutting tool, thread gauges, thread cutting gauge and the 4 jaw chuck, spindle spider as above. Sounds like you will need some reference books too.

You don't understand the advantage of a foot braked lathe when needing to cut Metric threads and you only have an Imperial thread chasing dial .
The lathe he linked too is a 240 volt single phase motor and not instantly reversible . So the cut out switch attached to the foot brake allows you to stop quickly at a shoulder but NOT disengage the half nuts to power reverse back . The power lever is still in the forward position even though the lathe stops instantly . Then you withdraw the tool and move the lever to reverse and it starts again in reverse . If you slam a single phase motor from forward to reverse without the cut off switch it will eventually wreck the motor .
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Timb0 » 12 Nov 2014, 4:00 pm

I don't think Andy will be doing much metric thread cutting looking at the stuff he plays with.
I learnt to get by without a foot brake , but I don't cut a metric thread up to a shoulder and I don't think Andy would have to either. Maybe I'm assuming? He can still cut a metric thread though( provided he has the chage gears) and let's the lathe coast into a thread relief groove
If a foot brake comes with the lathe its a good thing, but I would be more worried about getting a decent machine.
A few people I know have had a few issues with small cheap Chinese lathes lately. The Taiwanese lathes seem a bit better but that could change next week.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by andym79 » 12 Nov 2014, 5:18 pm

Hi guys, thanks for the replies so far. I hear those who say you don't know enough, don't bother etc Its a fair point but I am still relatively young and other the next 40 years (fingers crossed) I am sure it could pay for itself. Still a Chinese lathe lasting 40 years :(

The point about single phase motors is right In short they are inadequate even for vacuums and fans, let alone a lathe. I don't have 3 phase and probably never will!

Timbo is probably right the sort of stuff that I play with is unlikely to be metric. Its pretty much all American stuff. You never know, but I am not all that interested in bolt actions and only one of those I have isn't American the good old Carl Gustav. I see no reason to change out a good 29" barrel on that!

Now an 1892 in to .218 bee :) A marlin 1895 in to a 40-65 :D Two Winchester 94s with proper 24 or 26" barrels ;) Maybe a single shot in 220 Swift :lol: Perhaps a Winchester 94 in 25-35 or in 219 Zipper :D How about a Marlin 1895 in 33 WCF 8-) or even a Winchester 1886 in 50-110 :twisted:

Oh the things I can think up if I only try!

Some of these may never reach fruition, some will! How much do you think all of the above projects would cost if you did none yourself, a lot!

I may never do any myself, but I like to explore possibilities!

Oh and by the way my experience on a lathe is limited, but that doesn't stop me learning.

All these projects require a lathe!
Last edited by andym79 on 12 Nov 2014, 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by MeccaOz » 12 Nov 2014, 6:14 pm

andym79 wrote:Hi guys, thanks for the replies so far. I hear those who say you don't know enough, don't bother etc Its a fair point but I am still relatively young and other the next 40 years (fingers crossed) I am sure it could pay for itself. Still a Chinese lathe lasting 40 years :(

The point about single phase motors is right In short they are inadequate even for vacuums and fans, let only lathe. I don't have 3 phase and probably never will!

Timbo is probably right the sort of stuff that I play with is unlikely to be metric. Its pretty much all American stuff. You never know, but I am not all that interested in bolt actions and only one of those I have isn't American the good old Carl Gustav. I see no reason to change out a good 29" barrel on that!

Now an 1892 in to .218 bee :) A marlin 1895 in to a 40-65 :D Two Winchester 94s with proper 24 or 26" barrels ;) Maybe a single shot in 220 Swift :lol: Perhaps a Winchester 94 in 25-35 or in 219 Zipper :D How about a Marlin 1895 in 33 WCF 8-) or even a Winchester 1886 in 50-110 :twisted:

Oh the things I can think up if I only try!

Some of these may never reach fruition, some will! How much do you think all of the above projects would cost if you did none yourself, a lot!

I may never do any myself, but I like to explore possibilities!

Oh and by the way my experience on a lathe is limited, but that doesn't stop me learning.

All these projects require a lathe!

Grins ... Personally I just LOVE your attitude mate. If ya can get in there and get dirty with some of those projects ... Well a dream come true :D
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Jack V » 12 Nov 2014, 7:01 pm

Timb0 wrote:I don't think Andy will be doing much metric thread cutting looking at the stuff he plays with.
I learnt to get by without a foot brake , but I don't cut a metric thread up to a shoulder and I don't think Andy would have to either. Maybe I'm assuming? He can still cut a metric thread though( provided he has the chage gears) and let's the lathe coast into a thread relief groove
If a foot brake comes with the lathe its a good thing, but I would be more worried about getting a decent machine.
A few people I know have had a few issues with small cheap Chinese lathes lately. The Taiwanese lathes seem a bit better but that could change next week.

Why limit the use of the lathe when for almost the same price he can get more flexibility.
When making anything new from scratch that does not expressly need Imperial threads it is cheaper and easier to make it in Metric .
Sure you can get buy without a foot brake but it makes life very easy . I agree that Chinese lathes are hit and miss and Taiwanese are a bit better but they are also more expensive .
Most armatures starting out will crash the tool into the job coasting the lathe to a stop . Barrel tenons don't have a lot of room for large relief grooves without reducing thread length . You should keep the groove as small as possible.
I thought I would not cut many metric threads but I was wrong about that . Luckily I got good advice on what to buy from an old tool maker . I am just trying to pass it on. It's no matter to me either way .
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by andym79 » 12 Nov 2014, 8:46 pm

Am I right in assuming that spindle size is going to me a lot more of an issue that distance between centres for threading and chambering a barrel, forget contouring. I am merely talking about just threading a chambering! For example is it doable on a smaller lathe if it had a large spindle?
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Jack V » 13 Nov 2014, 12:02 pm

andym79 wrote:Am I right in assuming that spindle size is going to me a lot more of an issue that distance between centres for threading and chambering a barrel, forget contouring. I am merely talking about just threading a chambering! For example is it doable on a smaller lathe if it had a large spindle?

Horse power is not really the major issue here . Even a small lathe has the power to cut a barrel thread and cut a chamber . It just takes longer and more lighter cuts . However as the lathe gets smaller in physical size the hollow spindle and chuck bore gets smaller in diameter .
If you intend to put the barrel blank fully into the hollow spindle then you need a 38mm + ID . If you go with a smaller lathe that will not allow that but will take the muzzle end into the chuck and then thread and chamber on the steady rest you have to make sure the bed is long enough for that . Generally about 800 mm between centres is all you need as the tailstock can be taken off to give more room for the carriage if required and some of the barrel goes inside the chuck anyway . Yes it's doable on a smaller lathe that can physically accommodate the barrel blank.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by on_one_wheel » 13 Nov 2014, 3:41 pm

andym79 wrote:Hi guys, thanks for the replies so far. I hear those who say you don't know enough, don't bother etc Its a fair point but I am still relatively young and other the next 40 years (fingers crossed) I am sure it could pay for itself. Still a Chinese lathe lasting 40 years :(

The point about single phase motors is right In short they are inadequate even for vacuums and fans, let alone a lathe. I don't have 3 phase and probably never will!

Timbo is probably right the sort of stuff that I play with is unlikely to be metric. Its pretty much all American stuff. You never know, but I am not all that interested in bolt actions and only one of those I have isn't American the good old Carl Gustav. I see no reason to change out a good 29" barrel on that!

Now an 1892 in to .218 bee :) A marlin 1895 in to a 40-65 :D Two Winchester 94s with proper 24 or 26" barrels ;) Maybe a single shot in 220 Swift :lol: Perhaps a Winchester 94 in 25-35 or in 219 Zipper :D How about a Marlin 1895 in 33 WCF 8-) or even a Winchester 1886 in 50-110 :twisted:

Oh the things I can think up if I only try!

Some of these may never reach fruition, some will! How much do you think all of the above projects would cost if you did none yourself, a lot!

I may never do any myself, but I like to explore possibilities!

Oh and by the way my experience on a lathe is limited, but that doesn't stop me learning.

All these projects require a lathe!



I like your attitude lad, no gunsmith ever started out as a expert... trial and error is the only way to learn.

Try to get your hands on some old barrels from a smith and have some fun turning them, Its a trade well worth pursuing.

My advice is to only buy high quality broaches, reamers , cutting tips and so on.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by on_one_wheel » 13 Nov 2014, 3:51 pm

andym79 wrote:Hi guys, thanks for the replies so far. I hear those who say you don't know enough, don't bother etc Its a fair point but I am still relatively young and other the next 40 years (fingers crossed) I am sure it could pay for itself. Still a Chinese lathe lasting 40 years :(

The point about single phase motors is right In short they are inadequate even for vacuums and fans, let alone a lathe. I don't have 3 phase and probably never will!

Timbo is probably right the sort of stuff that I play with is unlikely to be metric. Its pretty much all American stuff. You never know, but I am not all that interested in bolt actions and only one of those I have isn't American the good old Carl Gustav. I see no reason to change out a good 29" barrel on that!

Now an 1892 in to .218 bee :) A marlin 1895 in to a 40-65 :D Two Winchester 94s with proper 24 or 26" barrels ;) Maybe a single shot in 220 Swift :lol: Perhaps a Winchester 94 in 25-35 or in 219 Zipper :D How about a Marlin 1895 in 33 WCF 8-) or even a Winchester 1886 in 50-110 :twisted:

Oh the things I can think up if I only try!

Some of these may never reach fruition, some will! How much do you think all of the above projects would cost if you did none yourself, a lot!

I may never do any myself, but I like to explore possibilities!

Oh and by the way my experience on a lathe is limited, but that doesn't stop me learning.

All these projects require a lathe!



I like your attitude lad, no gunsmith ever started out as a expert... trial and error is the only way to learn.

Try to get your hands on some old barrels from a smith and have some fun turning them, Its a trade well worth pursuing.

My advice is to only buy high quality broaches, reamers , cutting tips and so on.
Gun control requires concentration and a steady hand
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Gregg » 14 Nov 2014, 1:33 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:I like your attitude lad, no gunsmith ever started out as a expert... trial and error is the only way to learn.


I'd back that.

Never hurts to try, just be safe and do all the research first (which you're doing now).
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Jack V » 14 Nov 2014, 4:08 pm

That is all ok but you don't want too much error at choosing the lathe at 3000 bucks a throw.
Lathe work can be dangerous also and solid study of recognised good practise is very worthwhile to reduce said trial and error .
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Wobble » 15 Nov 2014, 11:39 am

Jack V wrote:Lathe work can be dangerous also and solid study of recognised good practise is very worthwhile to reduce said trial and error.


Be sure to keep those sleeves rolled up.

The worst "best practice" I've seen was one in the US where manufacturing for a food company, some rules overlapped and they were required to wear gloves due to the food relationship.

Sure enough, gloves got pulled into the lathe and we know what happens to the poor blokes arm next.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Jack V » 15 Nov 2014, 5:07 pm

+1 Gloves area real no no but in many cold countries they wear gloves because the large metal objects like chucks etc. can freeze your fingers off .

CNC is making things somewhat safer in that regard on factory floors but armatures on manual lathes need to be extra careful.

That is why I suggest a foot brake lathe even if both hands get hung up your feet will be clear and able to stop the lathe instantly .

If your left hand gets caught you can't reach across to turn the lathe off with the right hand . Not trying to scare anyone , if you stay focused on safety then nothing bad happens. Chance favours the prepared mind.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Wes » 17 Nov 2014, 3:14 pm

Jack V wrote:CNC is making things somewhat safer in that regard on factory floors but armatures on manual lathes need to be extra careful.


One of those is a few hundred grand though right?

A workshop quality manual one is how much? 10's of thousands? (I wouldn't know, just guessing)

Price will obviously prevent a lot of places going the safer option of CNC :(
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Jack V » 17 Nov 2014, 9:06 pm

You can buy a reasonable quality Taiwanese lathe suitable to do the work for about $5000 . Plus about another $2000 for basic tooling
There is no point in an armature buying an over expensive lathe for home use . The initial cost means you can't buy tooling for ages unless you are rich .
3 phase machines are superior in performance but resale of small 3 phase lathes can be hard . A single phase lathe will do anything you need and resale is much easier .
CNC machines vary in price greatly .
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by von_klitzing » 17 Nov 2014, 10:11 pm

Andy,
Mate I would recommend doing bulk research. Research Fitting and machining, hand tools, carpentry, boilermaking, tech drawing, and everything in between. Write down your plans and ideas and review them constantly as you learn more. Live it, talk it, breathe it. Soak it up coz you'll need it all. It's a big learning curve but all you need to begin with is desire.
Get a torrent downloader and go to town collecting materials on how to build firearms, building custom bolt actions, gas operated sytems, lever systems, trade textbooks and so on for example ----> (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 2246,d.dGY). ;) AGI have some videos on weapons systems and how they work.... Also, join a bunch of trade forums like practialmachinist, woodworking and metalsmithing forums. Surf catalogues and see what kind of tools and consumables are available and read about how people get around paying big bucks for jigs by building their own or inventing a new way to do things! --- Insert ppl like NoisyDad here --- Have an open mind and be flexible. You don't have to be a tradie to learn how to turn metals, it just helps if you have that background. Learn from those who do.
Anyway, I would recommend this lathe - minimum - to start doing your own work. It's an old workhorse, but very upgradeable and proven to do the job well time and time again. A bit more expensive and looks like it isn't any better but I think it is, that's just my opinion. http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/L237 Spindle bore is 40mm, you can turn between centres as well if you prefer, or a bit of both... You don't need a foot brake, if you think about it you can design your own brake or add a VFD later on which can act as a brake. A good quality coolant pump is a more important upgrade than a brake IMO, get one with your lathe. Look for a second hand lathe if you want to save a bit of money, they pop up on gumtree regularly, and generally come with extra tooling and sometimes upgraded motors and rebuilt gearboxes etc. but make sure you have some way to move it! There are plenty of forum posts about this as well... Be prepared to learn how to strip and assemble your lathe to change gears, adjust gear tolerances as general maintenance! Ports can clog up and if you're lathe isn't oiling itself it will fail prematurely. Don't forget oils and lubricants ;)
Tools can get expensive but if you focus on working the lathe and getting tools as you need them and not just generally it could work out a bit better. Watch for second hand stuff here too. Use HSS bits and learn to grind them to a fishtail gauge, although if you get carbides you save having to buy a bench grinder. But then again, a bench grinder can mount a linisher or buffing wheels for other works as well, you may want two.... You'll eventually have all of it if you want so it doesn't matter in the end. Lots of places to get good tools from; ebay is good, but MSCdirect is a good starting point for price comparison. I get lots of stuff off ebay, it's just so convenient. Ozmetool is a good aussie seller, mscdirect have their own ebay store, and you'll find more along the way as you research. There is about to be a big sale at Hare & Forbes from 20-22 Nov so you may save a few $$ if you're prepared to buy during these kind of sales. Get on the vip mailing lists of lots of toolshops here in aus, and overseas.
There aren't many places to get firearm reamers/gauges from around aus (if any?) but Pacific gauges and tooling are well known, Brownells, Clymer, etc. make high quality reamers and tools guaranteed to do the job.
Do loads of research before buying measuring gauges as you don't want to be buying these twice. This will kill you. Buy mitutoyo or starrett gear. Second hand isn't a problem coz it's lifetime guaranteed. Finger dial indicators, depth gauges, pin gauges, micrometers, verniers, etc. Learn to read and convert imperial measurements to metric and back again. Decide what your gauges will be, imperial or metric?
Anyway, you've got a mountain to climb :O get started or you won't get to the top eh? :D Good luck.

HTH
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Noisydad » 18 Nov 2014, 6:59 am

Chronos wrote:well the answer is if you know what you're doing all you need is a 600mm bed, 1" spindle bore, a dial indicator, a 4 jaw chuck and spindle spider. then the lathe needs to have both metric and imperial feed screws depending on the thread, you'd get away with high speed tooling and appropriate tool holders.

but you cant just walk in off the sgtreet, buy a lathe and screw cut a barrel IMHO


Not only that , but you'll soon need a second MUCH bigger lathe, a mill, a bandsaw, a shaper, a hydraulic press, two drilling machines, a forge and anvil, an oxy propane set, a pan brake.....deep sigh get the picture? I hope I never have to move again!
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Jack V » 18 Nov 2014, 5:00 pm

A foot brake system is not just to stop the rotation it also has a relay system that disconnects the motor as it stops allowing quick reverse without motor damage in a single phase motor . I would not recommend you start learning a lot of stuff you will never use that is a sure fire way to confuse the hell out of you. Set the goals you wish to achieve and study up on how to do that . Achieve one goal at a time and the lesson will be well learned . Later on you can branch out to new stuff . Many people advise about things they have never owned and some people that own old out dated lathes that may well be better quality than cheap modern ones , can't understand how easy the modern lathe is to use compared to old ones. Modern lathes have higher spindle speeds that allows better use of carbide inserts but still has lower speeds for HSS tooling and threading . I cut Metric and Imperial threads al the time and have never even connected the dial gauge it's just not necessary .
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Aster » 19 Nov 2014, 9:45 am

Friendly reminder here after a now-removed post.

A few pictures of accidents have been posted and removed as they're too graphic for an all-ages forum.

The potential dangers shouldn't be understated and safety should always come first, but don't post any graphic pictures demonstrating this. People can Google these themselves if they're so inclined.

All good. Carry on.
See you on the firing line.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by bluerob » 19 Nov 2014, 9:54 am

It's real shame that there isn't a TAFE course or equivalent on gunsmithing available in Australia.

Finding a good gunsmith is getting harder these days.
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Re: What sort of lathe is needed?

Post by Jack V » 19 Nov 2014, 11:05 am

Aster wrote:Friendly reminder here after a now-removed post.

A few pictures of accidents have been posted and removed as they're too graphic for an all-ages forum.

The potential dangers shouldn't be understated and safety should always come first, but don't post any graphic pictures demonstrating this. People can Google these themselves if they're so inclined.

All good. Carry on.


That is a good call as there is no need for gory photos.

In fact I don't even like too gory photos of downed game. It's just not necessary, even though I know it's kind of unavoidable on a shooting forum.
Jack V
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New South Wales

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