Bore bulge in Steyr HS50

[stephencee]

I think tne days of factories test firing is over isnt it?

I can only speak for the 1 brand but I know Anschutz come with a group from a test firing.

Got mine 9 months ago or something and this was done and included.

[Jack V]

I just watched some slow motion firing of the HS50 and with a shorter more compact scope the 1913 rail was not flexing as much as I though it would . It might be a steel rail . However what flexed more than I thought it would was the forend or the barrel , it was hard to tell but I suspect it was the forend and it's too weak.

However that amount does not equate to 12 inch groups @ 100 by itself in my opinion . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ikr3JrqAyE

It is interesting that When Steyr promote this gun to the Military it's called an Anti Material rifle. When they promote it to the civilian market it's a precision long range rifle . Military small arms have to be a compromise of weight , portability and performance .

[Jack V]

I think tne days of factories test firing is over isnt it?

I can only speak for the 1 brand but I know Anschutz come with a group from a test firing.

Got mine 9 months ago or something and this was done and included.

Anschutz have always been a good gun and if the rimfires had a thread in the action ring instead of a pin I would own one over a Brno ,
However accuracy wise they shoot great .

[Westy]

Funny thing is Jack I have 2 and the pin has never worried me or any other Olympic shooters either????? The Bruno's a nice little rifle but no worth the coin their asking now days!!! It started life as a cheap reliable rifle and now is parading around like it's a top Europen rifle not some relic of the cold war!!!!!!

[brett1868]

There I no guarantee that what you feel with a patch is a bulge . It could also be a smooth spot . As the barrel wears in it might even up in feel but you can't risk that .
A pressure bulge should show signs on the outside also . A loose spot caused by stress changes due to barrel profiling or fluting operations would not show on the outside . If it is a loose spot , it is most likely caused during hammer forging

This is looking like the possible explanation as the loose spot is exactly where the barrel tapers down just after the fluting and it is a hammer forged barrel. The barrel has fired exactly 73 rounds with 60 of them being Hornady 750Gr AMAX factory and the rest being my reloads. The reloads are probably a little lighter then the Hornady and impossible to double charge this round. There's 2 Steyr HS50 M1's in the shop and I've been given all the assistance possible by the dealer whom I'm on very good terms with . I'm sure it wasn't used by the boys in the shop cause there isn't many places you can shoot a 50 in Sydney and this wasn't shop stock, it was collected from storage. That thing called work reared its ugly head this week so no chance to do anything with it. I will be up the shop Friday afternoon, my jag & rod are already in the car so I'll run it through both of them and see what I can "feel". Friday fortnight I'll be heading bush for 2 nights which gives me 1 full day to sort this and test some new Woodleigh .416 Brass VLD's. The new chronograph arrived today and brand new outta the box has a broken sensor, guess if I'm in a good mood tonight.
Seems everything I touch turns to crap lately and none of it by any fault of my own.

[brett1868]

I just watched some slow motion firing of the HS50 and with a shorter more compact scope the 1913 rail was not flexing as much as I though it would . It might be a steel rail . However what flexed more than I thought it would was the forend or the barrel , it was hard to tell but I suspect it was the forend and it's too weak
However that amount does not equate to 12 inch groups @ 100 by it's self in my opinion . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ikr3JrqAyE
It is interesting that When Steyr promote this gun to the Military it's called an Anti Material rifle. When they promote it to the civilian market it's a precision long range rifle . Military small arms have to be a compromise of weight , portability and performance .

That's the old model in that video, I have the one in the video below but in black.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1422327029&v=lGhFS3l4gjc&x-yt-cl=84838260

[brett1868]

All we can do is speculate Brett!! you posted your issue seeking feedback which can be nothing other than speculation....

I'll say it a bit louder this time; the bulge is caused by the operator, the operator was either you, a previous owner, or someone at the dealer 'who took it for a run'......

You get your money back if the product is unfit for purpose.... for your sake I hope they do the diplomatic thing and replace it but they're not obliged to unless you can prove it wasnt you...

The scope and whether it's good or fixed sturdily is another issue....

Fair points, was more aiming to end any bickering between posters asking for an end to speculation. JackV had a plausible explanation around the loose spot so operator error may not be the only cause. I know I gave it a proper clean as I do with every rifle when purchasing, before shooting and prior to storage. I'm yet to rule out the scope which is why I'm not overly pissed at the rifle yet. If it turns out to be the barrel then the dealer will ship it back to Winchester no questions asked....how Winchester deal with it is open to speculation as I've heard they may take months to do anything. I'll put a timeline on the job and if they don't meet it then I'll be pushing hard for $$ back. I think it cost me $10,500 from memory so I'll be pushing real hard for a speedy resolution.

[Jack V]

Funny thing is Jack I have 2 and the pin has never worried me or any other Olympic shooters either????? The Bruno's a nice little rifle but no worth the coin their asking now days!!! It started life as a cheap reliable rifle and now is parading around like it's a top Europen rifle not some relic of the cold war!!!!!!

How many Olympic shooters build their own guns ? None ! If you never remove a barrel then it will not be a problem but that don't suit me.
I was not knocking the Anschutz . To describe a Brno as a relic of the cold war tells me you may have never owned one .
They probably are getting too expensive but popular items usually are . I have seen a few Brnos that shoot just as well as some very expensive Anschutz target rifles so they are a fairly good gun in real terms . I have not bought a new one in a long time so maybe they are not as well made as they once were but no one seems to be complaining . Maybe the Anschutz is the one that's over priced because a pin is a fairly cheap way to fit a barrel .

[Jack V]

Fair points, was more aiming to end any bickering between posters asking for an end to speculation. JackV had a plausible explanation around the loose spot so operator error may not be the only cause. I know I gave it a proper clean as I do with every rifle when purchasing, before shooting and prior to storage. I'm yet to rule out the scope which is why I'm not overly pissed at the rifle yet. If it turns out to be the barrel then the dealer will ship it back to Winchester no questions asked....how Winchester deal with it is open to speculation as I've heard they may take months to do anything. I'll put a timeline on the job and if they don't meet it then I'll be pushing hard for $$ back. I think it cost me $10,500 from memory so I'll be pushing real hard for a speedy resolution.

$10 500 ! I was unaware that it cost that much . I hope you get a speedy resolution . Winchester might ship it back to Steyr to fix .
This whole issue is a very frustrating , any shooter that lays out 10 grand should expect and get the best gun possible .
It is interesting to see how some call theorising to explore a subject , speculation . If you don't come up with theoretical possibilities then you will miss potential reasons why !

[stephencee]

Anschutz have always been a good gun and if the rimfires had a thread in the action ring instead of a pin I would own one over a Brno ,

What does the thread do differently?

[Jack V]

Anschutz have always been a good gun and if the rimfires had a thread in the action ring instead of a pin I would own one over a Brno ,

What does the thread do differently?

It makes it easier to change your own barrel . With the same gear you use for other guns. It's no issue if you don't ever want to do that .
Pressing out pinned barrels needs different gear .

[brett1868]

Finally made it to the shop this afternoon and ran my jag through the bore of a brand spanking new HS50 M1 and it has the identical same "loose" spot as my barrel. I had a mark on my rod so I knew how far along the bore it should be and the new rifle lined up perfectly. Assuming that this is the norm for these barrels and it doesn't affect accuracy I'm back to pointing my finger at the scope (NXS 8-32 x 56). Everything else including the nut on the trigger has been eliminated. I just spent a few hours in the garage prepping some brass for the 50 & 416 which I'll load tomorrow night to my usual OCD level of perfection. Need to do some research on seating depth for the AMAX 750Gr so I can seat them according to what shoots best as I've been basing my loads off the ADI manual. C.O.A.L of 5.450" with 233Gr of AR2218 pushing 750Gr of AMAX at 2800fps. My 375 Cheytac likes 0.020" off the lands and other calibres seem to vary from .001" to 0.030" off the lands to achieve best accuracy. Got my other chronograph working so I can finally get some meaningful velocities from the big guns

[Jack V]

That is some progress on the issue . I hope it is the scope as the rifle is harder to fix than get a new scope . I once knew a guy with a 50 cal and he told me that the only scope that lasted on his 50 cal was a Kahles . That's just what he said I don't know for sure . The 750 grain A.max has a Secant ogive and generally Secant ogives like to be close to the lands . You might have to go Schmidt & Bender .

[Oldbloke]

Mmm. Had a similar problem a while back and it turned out to be a incorrectly fitted scope mount, by myself. My point is I looked at it a dozen times and it looked ok. It was a, I couldnt see forrest through the trees type of issue. Perhaps if a mate had a look at the problem.

The loose spot is interesting. Two with the loose spor seems a hell of a concidence. Assuming its normal for that rifle and not a fault, could it be designed that way? I recall reading somewhere that experiments have been conducted of military barrels with sections without rifling. This is donkey yrs ago, seems a long shot though.

[1290]

I would be very surprised if a variance in the bore was normal manufacture... the barrel would fail (air)gauging for one thing. Just postulating, but if it is the case, perhaps the material has relaxed after machining the barrel (if theyre machined to profile after hammering) Dont know But would be interested to read Steyrs response...

[Oldbloke]

I did a search and came up with the following youtube. It looks like they profile before the
hammer forging. It results in a pattern being left on the barrel. http://youtu.be/aCMzyNHkjpk

[Oldbloke]

Brett, have you slugged the bore? Should be more precise?

[Jack V]

Even if the do profile before they hammer forge they still have to flute . That can still change stress . It is hard to believe that a bulge could get through testing but stranger things have happened . It also could be a smoother spot that makes it feel like a bulge . A slug cast in the muzzle and then pushed down the barrel might give a better reading of a loose spot than a patch as long as the barrel is not rough , as that could wear away the slug as it goes down anyway . I have several hammer forged barrels and they all feel perfect as you push the patch down but then again they have fired many shots .
I am still thinking the barrels including the one at the gun shop are not 100% right . Maybe not bulged but not perfect and smooth either . They may still shoot ok but they should be perfect on a gun that expensive . We will see what a scope change does . I hope it fixes it .

[Oldboy 7mm Dakota]

Take it to a smith that owns a bore scope, problem solved.
If the barrel is faulty you will know what direction to go as you said the new rifle at the shop has the same spot in its barrel.

[Oldbloke]

Take it to a smith that owns a bore scope, problem solved.
If the barrel is faulty you will know what direction to go as you said the new rifle at the shop has the same spot in its barrel.

Makes good sense.

[Jack V]

Bore scopes are good but they can not see a slight bulge of a few thou easily . They mainly see bore smoothness and condition which could still help .
The thing is with a gun under warranty , you really only have two choices keep it as it is or send it back with a complaint that it don't come up to the advertised expectations . Then it's out of your hands . The shop , importer and Steyr will decide what needs fixing and 9 times out of 10 they will never tell you what it actually was . Even if they fit a new barrel they still may send it back saying we checked it out and it was fine . They don't want to acknowledge their faulty products because that gives a customer evidence . I sent back a gun once a Winchester auto 22 because it was no good at all . This was in the days before registration . Eventually I got it back with the paperwork saying they serviced the gun and did minor repairs and now it's fine. Trouble was it was a totally new gun different serial number and all .
I was not complaining as this one was fine and a good gun but that is the kind of thing warranty people do

[1290]

I looked at that vid, came across this one... its an oldie from 1969, Remington documentary/promo type covering design and manufacture...... re Bretts matter - tune in to 7:40;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee5Wn7KlFoc

[Jack V]

That is what they should do in quality control . But there is no guarantee that they did do it right at the factory . In factories with mass production you have all kinds of mistakes taking place , learners making mistakes , things being forgotten and then placed back on the conveyor un checked , work interruptions causing mistakes and even malicious workers to contend with . You even get industrial sabotage , workers who are being paid by a competitor to sabotage your products . Do they air gauge every barrel they make , I wonder ?

[Oldbloke]

Interesting video, typical manufacturing, thanks.
PS No safety glasses or ear protection back then. Sorry some people can't help them selves. Perhaps I should

[1290]

Interesting video, typical manufacturing, thanks.
PS No safety glasses or ear protection back then. Sorry some people can't help them selves. Perhaps I should

I noticed too...... hands bathed in fluid and lubricants.... funny though, cancer rate today are as high as they were back then...if not higher.

[Oldbloke]

"funny though, cancer rate today are as high as they were back then...if not higher"

What you don't get told is that the early deaths from work related cancer are not counted in the "workplace fatalities" that are annually reported. They just get dumped into the ABS cancer stats. There is also a very long delay before they reduce even after exposure is reduced.

[brett1868]

Thanks for the suggestions gents, not sure slugging the bore would reveal anything as that's mainly used to measure exact bore dimensions when casting your own bullets. I've got the Kahles mounted up and will get bush in the next 2-3 weeks to see how it shoots. I spent the weekend reloading the brass I shot last trip, I made a case guage for the 50 & 416 to help work out the seating depths. That proved to be a waste of time and cases as the projectiles clear the case before the rifling starts, both rifles have a section of freebore which is interesting. I've got some JB's bore shine so might give it a good clean with that as well just for my own peace of mind. Haven't watched the Youtube links yet, I'll watch them tonight when I gethome fromthe range. Testing some new .375 Cheytac loads tonight

[Jack V]

That's good news mate. I am surprised it has a big free bore that will not bode well for a Secant ogive bullet but maybe it's chambered for a certain bullet . Sweets 7.62 bore solvent is the way to go and then polish up with some JB . Stubborn spots you can alternate sweets and then JB and then sweets and so on . Patch it out and then swab the bore out with turps on a few patches and then dry patch . You sure sound like you are well off to afford all that nice gear . Can I come and be a rifle caddy

[Warrigul]

I spent the weekend reloading the brass I shot last trip, I made a case guage for the 50 & 416 to help work out the seating depths. That proved to be a waste of time and cases as the projectiles clear the case before the rifling starts, both rifles have a section of freebore which is interesting.

Freebore is actually more common than many realise, especially in military type firearms and large bore hunting calibres. I have found no real loss in accuracy but LEE factory crimping improves 5.56, 7.62 and .303 when seating in relation to the lands isn't possible, even a roll crimp in some of the big hunting calibres(the handful I have dealt with anyway) seems to help.

The theory behind it is the allowance for the projectile to get going a little before the charge really gets going and reduce chamber pressure, I originally thought it was to allow for differences in military ammo but was corrected by a pommy armourer and his version sounded plausible.

It would be interesting to know whether the factory 50 cal and military .50 ammo is crimped.

[Jack V]

Your right In Military rifles free bore is not uncommon but this rifle is sold a precision long range rifle , free bore is not commo in that kind of rifle with the bullets they are chambered for but it's obvious the real description of this rifle is the Military one "Anti Material rifle " . Either way they do seem to shoot ok as others have shown but this one has a problem . Hopefully only the scope.
Crimps do not reduce chamber pressure they actually increase chamber pressure slightly by holding the bullet back longer as pressure rises , Crimp = higher neck tension = more pressure inside the case to make the bullet move out of the neck . A lot also depends on how hard the crimp actually is . The amounts involved are very slight as it don't take much extra to iron out a crimp .
Crimps can help accuracy but in most cases it's related to either straightening up the bullet in the neck or improving ignition and powder burn . Some boat tail bullets don't have much parallel section to seat on and even with good neck tension and seating dies can still have marginal grip they test fine in a concentricity gauge but after chambering can be out of whack . A crimp can help stop that from happening. Big calibres can benefit from a crimp even if it's just to stop recoil movement of the bullet when rounds are in a mag .