Stoked with .22 Dasher build

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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by sungazer » 26 Feb 2018, 5:13 pm

Are thy all at the same length? I have done a few ladder tests and Im not so convinced of there validity. I know there are some very knowledgeable people that swear by them. I just have not had the same results. I have had groups size change by seating depth. Rifle (stock) design rest bipod, rear bag, rifle hold, calibre and technique all have more to do with the shooting than the powder until I prove otherwise. I am not giving up learning and listening to people though.
What do you mean re your volume remarks?
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by Stix » 26 Feb 2018, 5:22 pm

Australia post...once the pride of this country...now one of its embarrassments...
Ive great empathy for you marksman, its a joke in this day & age that we have to use the ombudsman for even basic matters...
Hope you get your cash & scope soon.

As for the weight/volume test on brass...
Well i never--im almost a (reluctant) convert...such a smaller difference in volume compared to weight...!

So a couple of silly questions...
1) obviously spent primer is left in for volume test...?
2) do you bother to clean the carbon from inside cases at all before the volume test...?
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by Stix » 26 Feb 2018, 5:27 pm

So marksman, getting into the stastical data of the volume of those cases, thats an ES of .3gr, & an SD of .1gr.
(Dont ask me why i worked that out).
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 26 Feb 2018, 6:50 pm

sungazer wrote:Are thy all at the same length? I have done a few ladder tests and Im not so convinced of there validity. I know there are some very knowledgeable people that swear by them. I just have not had the same results. I have had groups size change by seating depth. Rifle (stock) design rest bipod, rear bag, rifle hold, calibre and technique all have more to do with the shooting than the powder until I prove otherwise. I am not giving up learning and listening to people though.
What do you mean re your volume remarks?


the main thing with a ladder test is you and your rifle have to be able to do your part or your results wont be reliable
I think you are pretty knowledgeable to understand what will change your group sizes
what I have learnt by weighing the empty cases and then filling them with water and weighing how much water is held is to get the case internal volume
that showed that although the case weights were not the same the internal volume was fairly good compared to the other cases
the internal volume is fairly consistent although the case weights are not

the OCW test I did was a volume test, the test loads were all the same length, just the amount of powder changed
next I will test OAL and neck tension to look for a better result, or scrap the projectile and go for a much better one
this test was done with a 20 thou jam
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by sungazer » 26 Feb 2018, 6:57 pm

Thanks for your explanation. I have only done the volume test once and I would have to go looking for the results or more so the hard data.
In our club there are a few guys that have new barrels and with the season approaching there is quite a bit of load development going on. Trying to get loads that have SD of 4 looking at all the sources of error in the measuring equipment and in your load. Quite a few thinkers at the club so it is interesting to be part of it.
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 26 Feb 2018, 6:57 pm

Stix wrote:Australia post...once the pride of this country...now one of its embarrassments...
Ive great empathy for you marksman, its a joke in this day & age that we have to use the ombudsman for even basic matters...
Hope you get your cash & scope soon.

As for the weight/volume test on brass...
Well i never--im almost a (reluctant) convert...such a smaller difference in volume compared to weight...!

So a couple of silly questions...
1) obviously spent primer is left in for volume test...?
2) do you bother to clean the carbon from inside cases at all before the volume test...?


getting the volume is way way better than case weight, that one I learnt from reading Nick Harvey's reloading column a long time ago :thumbsup:
yes leave in the spent primer
I don't clean out the carbon as the cases are once fired and just fireformed
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 06 Mar 2018, 7:20 pm

I have completed an over all length test from using one of the group loads off the OCW test and the results are
shot at 120 yards

Image

I'm not 100% happy with this load and am going to try a different powder and better projectile
the #1 is 20 thou off #2 is 10 thou off #3 is just touching and #4 is 20 thou jam
the #3 is screaming at an average of 2900 fps but the es is around 30,
I really don't like to have the projectile just touching as you will be always chasing the lands, I like to either jump or jam
checking concentricity of the loaded rounds the smith did a great job making up the dies for me from my reamer
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by Wm.Traynor » 06 Mar 2018, 7:27 pm

Numbers 2 and 3 both have excellent elevation :D :thumbsup:

But won't you always be "chasing the lands" if you are using overall length as one of the parameters? Asking out of Ignorance to be brutally honest. I have never had to employ these measures to find an accurate load.
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 06 Mar 2018, 7:43 pm

when you just touch the lands it only takes a touch to be off the lands especially if your projectile ogive is a bit inconsistent in form
the difference in pressure from touch is around 7200 psi higher than when not touching,
so the chase game is on if you are just touching trying to keep the projectile just touching
the reason why a jump or jam is better IMO, trying to eliminate flyers and inconsistency
I'm not sure if I have explained that properly, I hope i have :drinks:
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by Wm.Traynor » 06 Mar 2018, 8:19 pm

Are you using Extra Low Drag pills, Marksman? I understand why you would jam the cartridge in the post above thanks mate :)
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 06 Mar 2018, 8:28 pm

no they are not extra low drag pills
the rifle is for shooting rabbits and foxes so I have used garden variety speer 55gr flat base sp because about 10 years ago I bought a 1000 of them and they did not work in the 22 cal centerfire rifles I have so was hoping to get a really good result with them :lol:
I suppose for what they are they are doing ok :thumbsup:
and will kill a rabbit I recon :allegedly: if I can hit one with them :lol:
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by Stix » 06 Mar 2018, 9:07 pm

What makes you want to change both powder AND projectile...?

One ir two BR shooters have told me to NOT worry about getting accurate load data until a min of 100 rounds down a barrel...
What is your opinion of this theory ...?
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 07 Mar 2018, 7:41 am

if I was to make a change it is going to be a good one, there isn't much or no data available for this round so I am trying different things
I have read that my knew powder is a very good one for the 22 br so I am trying it, the powder I have tried was a surplus powder I have heaps of
I had this rifle built around cases, powder and projectiles :lol:

I watch how the barrel is fouling and if it has settled down before I look for accuracy
a factory barrel may take up to 200 shots with throat polishing or fire lapping before it comes good, it depends on the barrel
a well made hand lapped match barrel I find is good to go after 20 shots,
it may not need running in to get rid of the burrs left from reaming and crowning but I like to put at least 20 down a good barrel first
the target doesn't tell lie's :thumbsup:

I should say as well I have seen tikka barrels good after 6 shots
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 24 Mar 2018, 2:01 pm

so I have been playing with the 22 dasher again
I changed the pill to a sierra 60gr hp and moved onto a slower powder
this is the OCW test results
Image
this is the seating depth test
Image
and this is a reworked load from this test
Image
as you can see measured from outside to outside is 9.5mm
I have tried some 55gr nosler ballistic tips and got very similar results
I am going to test some 55gr zombie max (Amax) as well in the future
but all in all I don't mind the sierra 60 gr results
next is to give the rifle a good go at rabbits :drinks:
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 30 Apr 2018, 9:15 pm

as I haven't been active lately with an injury to my back I hadn't finished the testing of this rifle but I have tested the 55gr zombie-max and here is the result from 120

Image

and here on the left is a 10 shot group of the #7 test group with 2 fliers, groups are 10 shots without cooling barrel down,
the group on the right is #6 from the test

Image

anyway this will be the finish for this rifle as the zombie-max are plenty good enough for what I want
and I'm very pleased with the rifle :thumbsup:
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by Stix » 01 May 2018, 10:46 pm

Cool...!!
Hey marksman...can i ask some questions... (?)

* what seating depth do you use for the ocw tests--such as in the targets in your post on the 24th of March...?

*what different increments do you shoot with the seating depth test.?

*in your latest post testing the z-max (actually are they 'Z' or 'A' max?)
I assume thats an ocw test ?--if so, im curious to know the charge increment jump you used.

Sorry im painful...dont have to answer...im just curious for learnings sake...
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 02 May 2018, 9:43 am

ok, not painful at all Stix

*the seating depth for the ocw was 10 thou off touch for the 24th march test

*I used 10 thou increments on the oal test for that pill, the 60 gr sierra because it is a small length pill but say for a 30 cal pill would use 20 thou increments for an oal test and may fine tune test after that

*in the latest post yes that is an ocw maxed out at 34gr of powder, the charge increment jump was .4 of a grain
I use this for most cases to show clocking and big differences that may be worth exploring further
that test showed a definite ocw, and no need for fine tuning IMO
the smaller z-max projectile's are rebranded vmax the larger eg... 30 cal 168gr z-max are rebranded a-max

IMO you can be as basic or difficult as you want to be with this type of thing
I do a hell of a lot more than some but nowhere near as much as some
this was not an easy one to load for as there is no data available so it was try it out but beware of pressure
the hardest thing I have found is to figure out your max load for anything you reload,
then I foul the barrel and try it out in big enough increments where you will see a pattern, the ocw
some work straight away some you need to try something else, there is nothing written in stone
sometimes there is no straight answer, it can be a real bast@rd, sometimes :drinks:
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Re: Stoked with .22 Dasher build

Post by marksman » 01 Jan 2019, 3:50 pm

around 12 months on from when I started this project and I was out today finally to test the 80gr bergers that came with the second hand barrel I bought and had fitted for this very old mauser 98 varmint rifle
I have to say the rifle really likes these projectiles and does not seem to be fussy with them at all,
I have no references to load data for this wildcat cartridge at all and have used quickload to try and figure out where to start but more importantly where to stop, I had no pressure signs with what I tested but need to chrony to tweek the quickload extrapolation,
I really dont think I have to I'm happy with these results,
the difference from start to finish is 2 grains of powder and the target shows very similar clocking from the start to finish
this OCW target from today was shot at 200 yards with bad mirage so I'm very sure the rifle will shoot this projectile much better in better conditions and out to much further distances

Image

considering that this build cost under $2500 in total, including, rifle, dies, barrel, scope, mounts, cases, gunsmith work and a few other bits I am very happy with the results and I can see it likes the 80gr bergers more than anything else
I have shot quite a few rabbits and roos with it using the 55gr zmax that I worked a load up for but I will try the 80gr projectiles for culling roo's on tags
very happy :drinks:
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
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