Lapping your Bolt??

Improving and repairing firearms. Rifle bedding, barrel work, stock replacement and other ways to improve your firearms.

Lapping your Bolt??

Post by Mulder030 » 17 Feb 2018, 8:34 am

Morning All,

I have been thinking more and more about how I can improve my action on the Howa 1500. Just feels a little clunky, I would really like to learn how to improve it.
I have been watching and read some things on JB bore paste to lapp it in.

Whats everyones thoughts on lapping in your bolt?
How did you go about it?
What did you use to do it?

Any input is appreciated!
Cheers

Mulder.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by brett1868 » 17 Feb 2018, 10:00 am

Forget lapping the bolt and check out Micro Slick coatings.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by Homer » 17 Feb 2018, 10:05 am

G'Day Fella's,

Mulder, this is a job I undertake on any rifle, I believe will benefit from this.
But you need to not only have the knowledge to undertake this job but also, the equipment to clean up after you have completed the job.
http://www.sinclairintl.com can supply you with the ( https://www.sinclairintl.com/gun-cleani ... 35492.aspx - check out the video on this) Action Cleaning Tool, Dental Swabs, Abrasives and other equipment to use, and then the clean up after you have completed the job.

The first thing I do, is to measure all the bolt locking lugs, from Front to Back and right this Imperial measurement down (Lug 1=, Lug 2= Lug 3= ).
You need to do this, as if you remove to much material/Steel, you can create an EXCESS Headspace situation!
This can cause a potentially DANGEROUS Situation!

I then carefully apply a small (a Match head size) amount of fine mild abrasive (I have been using the same bore fouling remover (designed for .303 British), for years now and it works well), to the rear surface/face of the bolt locking lugs (2 or 3 of them).
I then insert the bolt into the rifle and pushing the bolt handle forward as far as possible, I then turn it down into battery.
I then only partially lift the bolt handle and then return it back down ..... I repeat this 20 times.
I then remove the bolt from the rifle and clean off all the abrasive and muck off, and with a bright LED flash light, inspect the rear face of the lugs for any indications of material/Steel removal.
I then remeasure the bolt lug length Front to Rear and if it has changed, write this new measurement down.
If I can see that some material/Steel has been removed, I then mark the rear surface of the locking lugs with a black Texta/Marker pen, and put it back in the action and close the bolt (into battery).
I then lift the bolt up and remove it from the rifle and again look at it with a bright LED.
Generally, the black Texta will be removed from only the high spots/contact surface of the bolt lugs, and this will give you the indication of Locking Lug surface contact.

If required, I repeat this until I have at least 50% contact on all (2 or 3) bolt lugs BUT ONLY WITHOUT REMOVING MORE THAN 0.002" (Two thousandths of an Inch) OF MATERIAL FROM THE ANY OF THE BOLT LOCKING LUGS!
Remember, you have probably been removing material/Steel from the Action Locking Lug Abutments inside the rifle action as well but you can't easily measure this, SO DON'T OVER DO THIS JOB!!!

I then use the Action Cleaning Tool and several Dental Swabs wet with a small amount of Turps, to completely remove all remaining abrasives and muck from inside the action lug abutment, raceways etc.
Once this has been completed I let the Turps evaporate. I then put a Match Head dob of grease on the rear of each bolt locking (to lubricate this most critical and hard worked surface), and put it back in the action, to spread the grease around.

Please remember, unless you actually know and fully understand what it is you are doing and trying to achieve here DON'T DO IT DOPEY!!!

Hope that helps

Avagreatweekendeh!
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Last edited by Homer on 19 Feb 2018, 7:46 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by Mr.Seacucumber » 17 Feb 2018, 10:06 am

Apparently it’s only worth lapping the bolts when you are replacing the barrel. I’d just go with the microslick.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by sungazer » 17 Feb 2018, 7:43 pm

I really wouldn't do this. It would have to be to the point that the bolt was really quite still to close with no case in there before even thinking there was an issue. It is good to be a little tight it will wear in just make sure you put a bit of grease on the front and back of the lugs so it doesn't gaul if it really is that tight.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by marksman » 17 Feb 2018, 7:58 pm

you lap your bolt lugs for better lug contact, you lap and polish your bolt lug raceway to slick up the action of your bolt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yITUZSWmMCw
or as suggested micro slick :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by Wm.Traynor » 17 Feb 2018, 8:06 pm

I keep wondering about the circumstances of the perceived clunkiness. For instance, is it during feeding, turning the handle down, lifting the handle, pushing forward over the mag follower, pushing forward with mag follower out of the way, pulling the bolt back? None of the above?
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by sungazer » 17 Feb 2018, 8:11 pm

Your right Wm really clunky would come from too much movement as in one of the bearing surfaces was already a bit big and sloppy. Something I wouldn't rush into. You cant put the material back once its gone.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by Mulder030 » 18 Feb 2018, 1:26 pm

Homer wrote:G'Day Fella's,

Mulder, this is a job I undertake on any rifle, I believe will benefit from this.
But you need to not only have the knowledge to undertake this job but also, the equipment to clean up after you have completed the job.
http://www.sinclairintl.com can supply you with the Action Cleaning Tool, Dental Swabs, Abrasives and other equipment to use, and then the clean up after you have completed the job.


Please remember, unless you actually know and fully understand what it is you are doing and trying to achieve here DON'T DO IT DOPEY!!!

Hope that helps

Avagreatweekendeh!
Homer


Wow, thank you for the in depth response Homer.

Cheers everyone for their input. I won't be doing anything straight off the batt and will most definitely be getting the opinions off Qualified gunsmiths.
pretty much wanting to get the slickest, smoothest feeling action possible . The action cycles fine however not as nice as other rifles I have shot.

I've got a lot of food for thought here and now know I need to further research prior to doing anything.

Thanks again guys.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by Homer » 18 Feb 2018, 4:09 pm

G'Day Fella's,

Thanks for your kind comments Mulder.

Obviously there are no shortage of keyboard warriors, that don't even understand what this process is, let alone the reason this task is undertaken in the first place.

D'oh!
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by marksman » 18 Feb 2018, 6:42 pm

Homer wrote:G'Day Fella's,

Thanks for your kind comments Mulder.

Obviously there are no shortage of keyboard warriors, that don't even understand what this process is, let alone the reason this task is undertaken in the first place.

D'oh!
Homer


hey Homer
not trying to be a sm@rt@rse and dont want to grind your gears
but would you please explain what the process is and why it is undertaken?

I do think we are all just trying to help out :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by Gwion » 19 Feb 2018, 5:51 am

I lapped the lugs on my Howa (there are only two, BTW Homer). The process i used was simple and safe. I did it to ensure good contact between lugs and action so as to prevent torqing of the the bolt face during firing which can affect the concentricity of bullet to bore as the bullet launches from the casing.

Before you go to all that trouble, get a permanent marker and colour the bearing surfaces of the bolt lugs. Use an empty fireformed case and work/lock the bolt a few times. Remove the bolt and see how much marker has worn off.
If it is even on both sides all is good. Load her up and go shoot.
If not (and you really want to screw around with it: not suggested for most!), follow the lapping regime as previously outlined only use a fireformed case and check progress regularly by re-marking with your pen and testing. Do NOT continue once 80-90% of the texta is rubbed off both sides in a check. All you are after is good conact on both sides. If one side is mostly clean and the other still showing a heap of colour after a few goes. STOP. Take the gun to a competent smith to true up properly.

Unless you are really trying to take your shooting from sub moa to sub 0.4 moa at 100m or are tuning the rifle for longe range shooting then this is all a waste of time. Technique and reloading processes have far more influence.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by Tripod » 19 Feb 2018, 7:08 am

Since the op's rifle is "Clunky" I don't think lapping will help him at all, And any clunkyness will not be from bolt lugs anyway, More likely that the bolt has too much clearance in the raceway and the cure for that is a higher quality rifle.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by Gwion » 19 Feb 2018, 8:16 am

Tripod wrote:Since the op's rifle is "Clunky" I don't think lapping will help him at all, And any clunkyness will not be from bolt lugs anyway, More likely that the bolt has too much clearance in the raceway and the cure for that is a higher quality rifle.


Totally agree, Tripod.
That is just the way Howas are. Mine was/is the same. Rather sloppy in the raceway but a good reliable budget rifle that are usually pretty damn accurate out of the box.
If I were the OP, i'd be taking Brett's advice re: gun slick or what ever he called it.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by Tripod » 19 Feb 2018, 8:34 am

Gwion wrote:
Tripod wrote:Since the op's rifle is "Clunky" I don't think lapping will help him at all, And any clunkyness will not be from bolt lugs anyway, More likely that the bolt has too much clearance in the raceway and the cure for that is a higher quality rifle.


Totally agree, Tripod.
That is just the way Howas are. Mine was/is the same. Rather sloppy in the raceway but a good reliable budget rifle that are usually pretty damn accurate out of the box.
If I were the OP, i'd be taking Brett's advice re: gun slick or what ever he called it.

I have a couple myself and they are very good for the price but at the end of the day they are still a cheap rifle. Micro slick is a good way to go as it takes up some of the sloppyness but unfortunately it does wear off, Which isn't a problem if you can DIY but if you are going to pay for it then it will be cheaper in the long run to buy a higher quality gun to start with. This is based on a rifle being used regularly. It I also one of those cases of remembering that no matter how much you spend on it it will still be a cheap rifle. Just go out and shoot stuff, When there is an animal on the ground you don't remember the recoil or how "Clunky" the action was. :thumbsup:
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by straightshooter » 20 Feb 2018, 9:40 am

This is at best a waste of time or at worst a dumb thing to do.
But first a correction.
In this process as it is commonly described you are not "lapping" the lugs, you are grinding the lugs.
In order to lap something you must use a softer material such as lead or copper in which the abrasive material embeds itself thus controlling the amount of cut.
Now stop and think what is actually happening when you do some "lug lapping".
You rotate the bolt on it's axis abrading each lug against it's abutment. The part of the lug that is closest to the axis of rotation travels through the least distance thus abrading the least and the part of the lug farthest from the axis of rotation travels through the greater distance thus being subjected to a greater degree of abrasion.
What you are doing is introducing a taper into the lugs. Doesn't that defeat your original intention of truing the lugs?
Now the real point of why it is a wasted effort.
If your action uses an override type trigger then it is inevitable, due to action clearances and tolerances, that the lug at 12 o'clock will always be clear of it's abutment.
Just about all modern actions use an override trigger.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by SCJ429 » 09 May 2018, 8:26 pm

The slickest actions I have seen are made by BAT Machine, as others have suggested microslick may improve the feel of your Howa. Several factory's including Sako use this coating on some bolts. Also try a little grease behind each locking lug on your bolt before you go shooting. Some grease in the action raceway will also help.
New Zealand gunsmith Nathan Foster provides detailed information regarding bolt lapping and many other things. His web address is at Terminal Ballistics Research. I have found his publications enlightened and practical.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by brett1868 » 09 May 2018, 10:18 pm

SCJ429 wrote:The slickest actions I have seen are made by BAT Machine, as others have suggested microslick may improve the feel of your Howa. Several factory's including Sako use this coating on some bolts.
New Zealand gunsmith Nathan Foster provides detailed information regarding bolt lapping and many other things. His web address is at Terminal Ballistics Research. I have found his publications enlightened and practical.


I'll 2nd that comment about BAT Machine actions....I'm yet to find anything close to how smooth this thing is.

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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by SCJ429 » 11 May 2018, 10:35 pm

Very nice Brett, one day I too will own one. What are you building with this one?
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by brett1868 » 12 May 2018, 9:36 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Very nice Brett, one day I too will own one. What are you building with this one?


Already built and taking trophy's :)
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by sungazer » 13 May 2018, 8:47 am

Is the break removable Brett?
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by brett1868 » 13 May 2018, 12:12 pm

sungazer wrote:Is the break removable Brett?


The brake is screwed on and can be removed though I've no reason to do so. It's big enough that I can clean the insides without any grief :)
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by SCJ429 » 13 May 2018, 6:45 pm

I have a brake on my 378 WM and a lot of carbon builds up between the crown and the brake. I have to take it off after every shoot to soak the carbon. Beautiful looking rifle and I love your front rest, Seb Neo?
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by sungazer » 13 May 2018, 7:38 pm

i was more interested in how it shoots with it on and off. I know Brett uses it for target comps. The crown of a muzzle is one of the most important parts and can have a huge impact on grouping. It is what forms the pressure wave around and behind the projectile and just any small damage can cause big problems. So thats the real question do you notice any difference in accuracy with it on and off? It is a test that has to be done under ideal conditions and at 150-200yrds to give the projectile time to stabilize but not too much to be influenced by environmental. Yes it is a gun like no others in Aus.
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Re: Lapping your Bolt??

Post by bigfellascott » 13 May 2018, 10:05 pm

I just use valve grinding paste to smooth up any of my actions, needed it for that atrocity that is a Ruger action (worst action I've ever had to deal with) now it's nice and smooth after the grinding paste treatment.
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