Scopes or Sights

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Scopes or Sights

Post by Robin » 25 Nov 2020, 5:28 pm

I think my scope on my 308 is crap (mostly because it's impossible to zero in ) so I'm looking to replace it, this 308 will be my main hunting rifle, what I am looking for is either a OK scope under $1000 or HAWKE VANTAGE RED DOT SIGHTS 1X30 or similar , what are your thoughts on this.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Ziege » 25 Nov 2020, 5:37 pm

get rid that 308 and buy a 378 weatherby
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by bladeracer » 25 Nov 2020, 5:44 pm

Robin wrote:I think my scope on my 308 is crap (mostly because it's impossible to zero in ) so I'm looking to replace it, this 308 will be my main hunting rifle, what I am looking for is either a OK scope under $1000 or HAWKE VANTAGE RED DOT SIGHTS 1X30 or similar , what are your thoughts on this.


Does it have iron sights? What is making it impossible to zero your scope? Can you zero the scope okay on a different rifle? What scope is it and did it ever zero okay? I have a junk Redfield Revolution that won't hold a zero, despite shooting decent groups.

I guess it depends on what you're hunting and at what distances. Red Dot's are good at close-range on larger targets, not great for rabbits at 300m.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Robin » 25 Nov 2020, 5:55 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Robin wrote:I think my scope on my 308 is crap (mostly because it's impossible to zero in ) so I'm looking to replace it, this 308 will be my main hunting rifle, what I am looking for is either a OK scope under $1000 or HAWKE VANTAGE RED DOT SIGHTS 1X30 or similar , what are your thoughts on this.


Does it have iron sights? What is making it impossible to zero your scope? Can you zero the scope okay on a different rifle? What scope is it and did it ever zero okay? I have a junk Redfield Revolution that won't hold a zero, despite shooting decent groups.

I guess it depends on what you're hunting and at what distances. Red Dot's are good at close-range on larger targets, not great for rabbits at 300m.


Put it this way, I couldn't hit the 50m target or the 100m, it could also be my crap aim.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Ziege » 25 Nov 2020, 5:57 pm

buy a 12gauge instead?
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by bladeracer » 25 Nov 2020, 6:13 pm

Robin wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Robin wrote:I think my scope on my 308 is crap (mostly because it's impossible to zero in ) so I'm looking to replace it, this 308 will be my main hunting rifle, what I am looking for is either a OK scope under $1000 or HAWKE VANTAGE RED DOT SIGHTS 1X30 or similar , what are your thoughts on this.


Does it have iron sights? What is making it impossible to zero your scope? Can you zero the scope okay on a different rifle? What scope is it and did it ever zero okay? I have a junk Redfield Revolution that won't hold a zero, despite shooting decent groups.

I guess it depends on what you're hunting and at what distances. Red Dot's are good at close-range on larger targets, not great for rabbits at 300m.


Put it this way, I couldn't hit the 50m target or the 100m, it could also be my crap aim.


That doesn't sound like a zeroing problem with the scope, that's a problem with the shooter.
Zero on paper so you can see exactly where your bullets are striking so you can make the adjustments required to zero the scope.
Boresight first by looking down the bore at the target, then adjusting the scope to the same place.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Ziege » 25 Nov 2020, 6:32 pm

get close to something and focus on shooting a group, dont move the scope until there is a group, and then make the group smaller before moving it. do this after bladeracers comments. never move a scope until you know you are getting groups.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Robin » 30 Nov 2020, 8:17 am

Im thinking its the scope as I just tried with a laser and it would not zero still.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by mchughcb » 30 Nov 2020, 8:50 am

Scope and probably a vortex.
I'm not a pro. Not even close.
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Post by bladeracer » 30 Nov 2020, 8:53 am

Robin wrote:Im thinking its the scope as I just tried with a laser and it would not zero still.


A laser sight pr a boresighter? A boresighter is only going to get you close, it won't zero the scope precisely, that still has to be done on paper.

Can you describe what you're doing and what is happening?

First you set the rifle in place with the bolt removed so you can see down the bore and determine what it is pointed at - a branch of a tree is good. Then adjust the scope reticle to the same place so looking down the bore and through the scope you are seeing the same target. That should easily put you onto an A4 page at 50m.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Robin » 30 Nov 2020, 11:13 am

bladeracer wrote:
Robin wrote:Im thinking its the scope as I just tried with a laser and it would not zero still.


A laser sight pr a boresighter? A boresighter is only going to get you close, it won't zero the scope precisely, that still has to be done on paper.

Can you describe what you're doing and what is happening?

First you set the rifle in place with the bolt removed so you can see down the bore and determine what it is pointed at - a branch of a tree is good. Then adjust the scope reticle to the same place so looking down the bore and through the scope you are seeing the same target. That should easily put you onto an A4 page at 50m.




I used the bore sighter and when I attempted to adjust the scope , the red dot stayed on the bottom and wouldn't move .
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by TassieTiger » 30 Nov 2020, 12:13 pm

Surely a troll - surely.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by bladeracer » 30 Nov 2020, 1:22 pm

Robin wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Robin wrote:Im thinking its the scope as I just tried with a laser and it would not zero still.


A laser sight pr a boresighter? A boresighter is only going to get you close, it won't zero the scope precisely, that still has to be done on paper.

Can you describe what you're doing and what is happening?

First you set the rifle in place with the bolt removed so you can see down the bore and determine what it is pointed at - a branch of a tree is good. Then adjust the scope reticle to the same place so looking down the bore and through the scope you are seeing the same target. That should easily put you onto an A4 page at 50m.




I used the bore sighter and when I attempted to adjust the scope , the red dot stayed on the bottom and wouldn't move .


Assuming you mean the red dot from the bore sighter, it's not supposed to move, only your reticle will move.

So the reticle does not move at all regardless of which way you turn the turrets?

What specific rifle and scope are we dealing with?
Has the scope worked on any other rifle?
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Bugman » 30 Nov 2020, 2:44 pm

Some good advice there Robin. Just a bit more advice. It may or may not solve your problem. Take the scope off, check the mounts with a level, all good then replace the scope onto the mounts. Get a sheet of white cardboard, 1m x 1m. Place the cardboard 25m from your sighting position and put a 10cm x 10 cm square (black pen) in the centre. As bladeracer has said, remove the bolt, look through the barrel and line the barrel with the black square so that it fills most if not all of the line of sight.
Keep the rifle very steady and adjust the cross hairs to match the line of sight with the barrel. If the cross hairs won't line up...probably a new scope is required.
If it lines up, the stage 2: fire two test shots at the target at 25m. See where they hit, and adjust the cross hairs to meet up with two shots. If all goes well then this will get you on paper at 100m, then readjust accordingly.
I actually did this with my 308 and a Meopta scope. Long winded, maybe but the thing is, it worked a treat.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by TassieTiger » 30 Nov 2020, 2:54 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Robin wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Robin wrote:Im thinking its the scope as I just tried with a laser and it would not zero still.


A laser sight pr a boresighter? A boresighter is only going to get you close, it won't zero the scope precisely, that still has to be done on paper.

Can you describe what you're doing and what is happening?

First you set the rifle in place with the bolt removed so you can see down the bore and determine what it is pointed at - a branch of a tree is good. Then adjust the scope reticle to the same place so looking down the bore and through the scope you are seeing the same target. That should easily put you onto an A4 page at 50m.




I used the bore sighter and when I attempted to adjust the scope , the red dot stayed on the bottom and wouldn't move .


Assuming you mean the red dot from the bore sighter, it's not supposed to move, only your reticle will move.

So the reticle does not move at all regardless of which way you turn the turrets?

What specific rifle and scope are we dealing with?
Has the scope worked on any other rifle?


Mate seriously - if he can’t work out the bore scope is not affiliated with scope turrets and further can’t answer pertinent questions that will solve his issues - then, your dealing with a troll or someone that doesn’t really want to know...
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Robin » 30 Nov 2020, 4:14 pm

Hey easy TassieTiger, I'm no troll, just a new shooter trying to get up to speed.

First , I do work and I'm on the road alot , so quite often answering can take time, and when I do answer between jobs, it's normally short and quick answers, so I can get to the next job, I never expected to ask and get a answer ASAP as I know most people work also and have lives other then looking on this site all the time, and I appreciate most of the advise I get.

Second, I am answering when I have tried a few things that has been advised.

Does it really matter if I cant work out the bore scope is not affiliated with scope turrets, the reason why I am on this site is because I am a fairly new shooter, and sites like this do end up providing alot of good and helpful information, I'm still trying to get my head around MOA v MRAD , what might seem like stupid and easy questions, might end up being hard for the person asking, hence the reason why sites like this are good to ask.

I could always just go to the local gun shop, however the sales people are always too busy to ask and I am likely to walk out with a $2000 scope, rather then trying to resolve the issue.

Now it sounds like TassieTiger hasn't had enough sleep so I'll answer the best I can, now that I have some time.

I'll try bladeracer's and Bugman's idea and see how that goes.

Has the scope ever worked, yes it did.
Has the scope worked on other rifles, that I can't answer as its a 2nd scope that came with the rifle.

What happened between the time it worked and now, I added a slip on recoil pad and thats when it wouldn't hit the target, I couldn't see the full view in my scope, so I did some reading and found that I needed to move it closer so that I can see the full view, from here is where I found out that the scope wont align up with the red dot coming from the bore light , no matter what I tried, it would only move a very small amount.

The reticle only moves slightly as I turn the turrets

I totally understand that the laser wont give me a dead bulls eye as its just light and doesn't take into count of weight and power and aerodynamics, however what I was hoping was to get it to the point where it will at least get me on paper and from there I can zero it in with a few rounds, rather then the whole box like I did 2 weeks ago.

I'll let you know how I go with more testing tonight.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by bladeracer » 30 Nov 2020, 4:53 pm

TassieTiger wrote:Mate seriously - if he can’t work out the bore scope is not affiliated with scope turrets and further can’t answer pertinent questions that will solve his issues - then, your dealing with a troll or someone that doesn’t really want to know...


Being a forum, even if he is trolling, the information will be here for the next person having a similar problem. It really benefits nobody to spend your time responding to a thread, just saying that you don't think it's worth responding to ;-)
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by bladeracer » 30 Nov 2020, 5:06 pm

Robin wrote:Has the scope ever worked, yes it did.
Has the scope worked on other rifles, that I can't answer as its a 2nd scope that came with the rifle.

What happened between the time it worked and now, I added a slip on recoil pad and thats when it wouldn't hit the target, I couldn't see the full view in my scope, so I did some reading and found that I needed to move it closer so that I can see the full view, from here is where I found out that the scope wont align up with the red dot coming from the bore light , no matter what I tried, it would only move a very small amount.

The reticle only moves slightly as I turn the turrets

I totally understand that the laser wont give me a dead bulls eye as its just light and doesn't take into count of weight and power and aerodynamics, however what I was hoping was to get it to the point where it will at least get me on paper and from there I can zero it in with a few rounds, rather then the whole box like I did 2 weeks ago.

I'll let you know how I go with more testing tonight.


Okay. The recoil pad increased the length of pull, so you needed to move the scope back a similar amount to compensate.
Did you move the scope back in the rings or did you leave the scope in the rings and just move the rings back on the rail?

The laser dot is not necessarily centred along the bore axis, that's why many of us still prefer to look through the bore ourselves rather than trust lights.
If you are using the laser at a very close distance it may be impossible to adjust the reticle that far down. The difference between your line of sight through the scope, and the line of flight of the bullet exiting the bore is about 30mm to 60mm depending on your specific setup. At 10m the bullet is likely still well below your sight line, probably further than the scope can adjust. Particularly if the scope is higher-powered as it will have more limited adjustment. One minute at 10m is only 2.9mm of movement, if the reticle is 35mm above the laser you would need about 12MoA of adjustment, or 48 clicks on a quarter-minute dial. But a 10m zero is going to shoot very high at 25m, and probably at least 400mm high at 100m. You would certainly expect to be able to zero it at 25m or further though
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Robin » 30 Nov 2020, 5:22 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Robin wrote:Has the scope ever worked, yes it did.
Has the scope worked on other rifles, that I can't answer as its a 2nd scope that came with the rifle.

What happened between the time it worked and now, I added a slip on recoil pad and thats when it wouldn't hit the target, I couldn't see the full view in my scope, so I did some reading and found that I needed to move it closer so that I can see the full view, from here is where I found out that the scope wont align up with the red dot coming from the bore light , no matter what I tried, it would only move a very small amount.

The reticle only moves slightly as I turn the turrets

I totally understand that the laser wont give me a dead bulls eye as its just light and doesn't take into count of weight and power and aerodynamics, however what I was hoping was to get it to the point where it will at least get me on paper and from there I can zero it in with a few rounds, rather then the whole box like I did 2 weeks ago.

I'll let you know how I go with more testing tonight.


Okay. The recoil pad increased the length of pull, so you needed to move the scope back a similar amount to compensate.
Did you move the scope back in the rings or did you leave the scope in the rings and just move the rings back on the rail?

The laser dot is not necessarily centred along the bore axis, that's why many of us still prefer to look through the bore ourselves rather than trust lights.
If you are using the laser at a very close distance it may be impossible to adjust the reticle that far down. The difference between your line of sight through the scope, and the line of flight of the bullet exiting the bore is about 30mm to 60mm depending on your specific setup. At 10m the bullet is likely still well below your sight line, probably further than the scope can adjust. Particularly if the scope is higher-powered as it will have more limited adjustment. One minute at 10m is only 2.9mm of movement, if the reticle is 35mm above the laser you would need about 12MoA of adjustment, or 48 clicks on a quarter-minute dial. But a 10m zero is going to shoot very high at 25m, and probably at least 400mm high at 100m. You would certainly expect to be able to zero it at 25m or further though


I'm a IT engineer and I missed the smallest thing in problem solving, I think I may have resolved it , what I did was I removed the scope and then reattached it, and the rectile now follows the light and also tested with looking through the bore method, ill test again when I have a bigger space.

What I think I did wrong, was I think the front of the scope was raised slightly ( my mistake)

Thanks for the help, ill let u know how it goes when im at the range next.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by rc42 » 30 Nov 2020, 5:35 pm

I have a Hawke Vantage 1x30 with 2MOA red dot.
It's OK, nothing special, there's a slight visual distortion through it which looks a little odd when you have both eyes open and there's a slight light loss so the target looks darker than through your other eye. I've seen better and far worse but it's OK for its price point.
I use mine on a Savage A22R, great for plinking out to 50m and closer faster targets but wouldn't be too great at long distance, even 2MOA is a big dot out at 200-400m which is where I'd expect 308 use.

For scopes under $1,000 you'll be overrun with quality options to compare, first focal plane is a better choice for hunting where shooting distance may vary a lot. I had a look through a Vortex Diamondback 6-24 x50 FFP ring my last gun store visit and was impressed, far better than any scope I've got and around $650 but there's a huge market in that price range.

Scope mounting needs to be really good on higher recoil rifles as they can get quite a lot of G force
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by SCJ429 » 30 Nov 2020, 5:53 pm

Many people have already suggested what I am saying but try this.
Stick your rifle on a bipod and rear bag so it does not move as you adjust your scope.
Put out a target at 50 metres or closer if you need to, then look through your barrel and centre it on the target. If your scope it way off, wind to the centre of the target ensuring the rifle doesn't move.

Fire a shot and then reset your rifle with the retical pointed at your point of aim. Wind your retical to the place that the bullet impacted. Recheck that you are closer by firing another shot. Then take your target out to 100 metres and you should only need to make small adjustment to get to the bull.

If you cannot get onto paper at 50 metres try 25 metres, if you still cannot get on then you have further issues.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Robin » 30 Nov 2020, 6:00 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Many people have already suggested what I am saying but try this.
Stick your rifle on a bipod and rear bag so it does not move as you adjust your scope.
Put out a target at 50 metres or closer if you need to, then look through your barrel and centre it on the target. If your scope it way off, wind to the centre of the target ensuring the rifle doesn't move.

Fire a shot and then reset your rifle with the retical pointed at your point of aim. Wind your retical to the place that the bullet impacted. Recheck that you are closer by firing another shot. Then take your target out to 100 metres and you should only need to make small adjustment to get to the bull.

If you cannot get onto paper at 50 metres try 25 metres, if you still cannot get on then you have further issues.



Thanks,
I'll try that on the weekend.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by TassieTiger » 01 Dec 2020, 7:46 am

bladeracer wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:Mate seriously - if he can’t work out the bore scope is not affiliated with scope turrets and further can’t answer pertinent questions that will solve his issues - then, your dealing with a troll or someone that doesn’t really want to know...


Being a forum, even if he is trolling, the information will be here for the next person having a similar problem. It really benefits nobody to spend your time responding to a thread, just saying that you don't think it's worth responding to ;-)


Fair enough and correct.
My apologies if you are legit Robin. Once you’ve absorbed some of the excellent info provided here, you might better understand why I thought you might be trolling - as some of your questions simply did not add up.

I’ll just add - there is nothing wrong with starting at 20/25m to commence the diagnosis of a problem. Even if it’s just one firing - in this case, may have immediately alerted you to the issue. I’ll often keep factory ammo or unused one offs for things like this.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Robin » 01 Dec 2020, 9:38 am

TassieTiger wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:Mate seriously - if he can’t work out the bore scope is not affiliated with scope turrets and further can’t answer pertinent questions that will solve his issues - then, your dealing with a troll or someone that doesn’t really want to know...


Being a forum, even if he is trolling, the information will be here for the next person having a similar problem. It really benefits nobody to spend your time responding to a thread, just saying that you don't think it's worth responding to ;-)


Fair enough and correct.
My apologies if you are legit Robin. Once you’ve absorbed some of the excellent info provided here, you might better understand why I thought you might be trolling - as some of your questions simply did not add up.

I’ll just add - there is nothing wrong with starting at 20/25m to commence the diagnosis of a problem. Even if it’s just one firing - in this case, may have immediately alerted you to the issue. I’ll often keep factory ammo or unused one offs for things like this.


All good, ill admit that Trump makes more sense then me most of the time , because I drive alot, I have too much time to think, so when I stop I end up adding my answers , also using my phone to type with s**ts me, hence my short responses.

I also roll my eyes when I get what I think are basic IT questions and I fail to see that the person asking actually doesn't know it , anyway all good, as a new shooter , there is heaps that I don't know, however once i have learnt, ill retain it and know it for next time.

Ill hit the rifle range next Saturday so I'll be able to put all of this into practice.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Robin » 21 Feb 2021, 11:14 am

I thought I would give a quick update on this, as my last update was December last year.

Long story short, my scope was not sitting horizontal to my gun, the front end was sitting about 1 to 2 mm higher then the back and that must have been what was throwing me out, I have since corrected this, laser lined up perfect, I ended up finally testing it at the range last Sat and I was finally able to zero it in with no issues.

Funny how a small amount out made a big difference, anyway it pays to recheck things.
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by in2anity » 02 Mar 2021, 8:54 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Many people have already suggested what I am saying but try this.
Stick your rifle on a bipod and rear bag so it does not move as you adjust your scope.
Put out a target at 50 metres or closer if you need to, then look through your barrel and centre it on the target. If your scope it way off, wind to the centre of the target ensuring the rifle doesn't move.

Fire a shot and then reset your rifle with the retical pointed at your point of aim. Wind your retical to the place that the bullet impacted. Recheck that you are closer by firing another shot. Then take your target out to 100 metres and you should only need to make small adjustment to get to the bull.

If you cannot get onto paper at 50 metres try 25 metres, if you still cannot get on then you have further issues.


I realize this is and old thread but yep. Boresighting really is a no-brainer. I was chatting to an F-class shooter the other day, and he explained how he checked his bore relative to his scope before every match. Now of course the crosshair should be offset relative to trajectory and estimated windage, but you should be able to see if you'll at least be in the black even way way out there. A rudimentary verification of your sights before expending that first sighter. Basically eliminates the possibility of a wash out. Sadly not possible to do this from the sling... a luxury of fully supported shooting.

Coming back to boresighting on the humble 100m line, with a little care matching the bore to the scope, you should come very close to hitting the bull on the opening shot. Not really any excusing missing the X with the follow up shot (after the relevant sight adjustment). Off a rest, it's pretty simple stuff :unknown: not sure how those laser thingies are relevant.
At what point does a lack of maintenance become "patena"?
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by animalpest » 02 Mar 2021, 9:37 pm

A couple of things don't make sense to this.

Firstly, the OP says the scope was out on the mounts by a couple of mm. Either the mounts are connected right, or they are not. You cannot have scope and mounts out by mm and simply adjust it.

Secondly, the OP says he is a IT engineer but hates typing on his phone. Yep, nah
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Re: Scopes or Sights

Post by Robin » 03 Mar 2021, 7:05 am

animalpest wrote:A couple of things don't make sense to this.

Firstly, the OP says the scope was out on the mounts by a couple of mm. Either the mounts are connected right, or they are not. You cannot have scope and mounts out by mm and simply adjust it.

Secondly, the OP says he is a IT engineer but hates typing on his phone. Yep, nah


On a scope there is the tube which is straight and then there is the objective bell which rises , my scope was mounted on the beginning of the objective bell and in return it made the front rise up , even tho it was only a fee mm up, it was enough to not allow me to adjust it properly, thus was my mistake, however I did find it and I did fix it, and in return I also learnt a few things.

Yes I'm a IT engineer and yes I hate typing on phones , however, I'm not too sure why that part is a issue with the problem I had.
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