Storage - Different Security Options & Ideas

[adam]

I've always been of the opinion that the best way to keep something safe is to first have no one else know about it. Unfortunately with our firearms registry, plus the data kept in books at gun shops re transfers, etc - it seems as though this is an impossible task to reach, and there are some well organised criminals who know who and where to target - that also have some half decent tools at their disposal.

The second option would be to have the items stored in a place that no one knows about - or where they wouldn't expect to look. ie - I love what some companies do in the USA http://www.covertcabinets.com/ would be great. (I've seen a youtube video of a cabinet that uses magnetic locks to access as well). Yet once again, it seems as though we're restricted from this option by our illustrious leaders because it would not comply with storage requirements, even though IMO it would be a safer option than a safe that shouts "Here I am - target me" to a burgler...

(Gotta wonder which side the government is on sometimes - ours, or the criminals)...

I'll add here - if anyone knows of any sort of company that provides covert gun safe options available here in Australia - please let me know!!!

Anyway - that leaves me to my question. What are some ideas that people have in order to thwart criminals... This is a brain storming idea - so I don't mind impractical thoughts at this stage - just trying to get the mind to think outside of the box...

A couple of ideas I've come up with are...

1) Have multiple safes.

If a burger is after guns and finds a safe, it may stop them from searching for more. Even better if that safe they have is full of nothing... Otherwise it's the game of 'which door should you pick'. Unfortunately this is an expensive option, and also takes up a lot of room (at least in my instance where storage isn't that great). As such - impractical in a number of cases...


2) Have safe's hidden.

Easier said than done. I've seen some in ground safes (that go into the foundation of a house) - but it seems as though this isn't really practical unless you're building a new house?

I guess I could hide my large safe under a blanket, but really - it's probably not going to be that inconspicuous...

3) Have a really messy room

One of those where it would take 20 minutes just to get through the junk to the other side of the room, and hide the safe behind all the junk. Once again - not really practical for the owner who wants to access their safe, but I did say this was more a brain storming kind of thread.


... well that's for starters. We had an interesting thread a while ago about ideas to hide keys (and there were some great ingenious, and funny ideas that came up in that thread) - which actually was helpful to me. I'm hoping that this thread might follow the same lines.

[No1Mk3]

G'day adam,
I agree anonymity is a great safety feature, but requires no gun or club stickers on cars, care in loading/unloading for the range/hunt, and discretion in who you talk to. It can be furthered by installing safes in out of the way places such as wardrobes, so that casual visitors like tradesmen etc never see them. You also need to develop the habit of watching for following cars when you drive home from the range, a known criminal activity here in Victoria. It also fails when employees of insurance companies are selling lists of owners and their safe location/security details to crims, as well as an employee of the Police Licencing doing the same thing. It also wasn't helpful that until recently, Police procedure was to arrive at a location and call in where they were and what for, ie: "Sgt x at 9 Bumrush Ave, Burwood, firearms inspection" over the radio so that anyone with a scanner could hear them. They also read forums, so careful what you let slip when here, Cheers.

[adam]

Hi No1,

You raise some good points, especially about the following home from the range.

I guess one of the things I want to do is make it as hard as possible for any criminal to find the safe in the first place. The longer it takes them to find it, the longer it takes them to do 'their job'. This means the greater the opportunity of them being either caught, or giving up.

I wish I was good at metal and woodwork. It seems as though there could be an opportunity here in Australia to make compliant safes that are metal on the inside, but wood on the outside so one could still potentially make some sort of covert safe that abides to Australian standards.

Unfortunately the lack of demand (compared to the states) would probably make the cost prohibitively expensive from a commercial point of view, but someone good with their hands could potentially do something for themselves...

As for me - I'm just looking for other more simpler to implement opportunities.

[AusTac]

you can play sneeky sam all you like, even develop a bit of tin foil hat paranoia but pretty much if they want your stuff the'll likely get it one way or another, all the registries paper trail doesn't help but really theres s**t all you can do about it besides follow the storage laws and attempt to hide your bits

[happyhunter]

I went option 3, messy room, plus

My safe is housed inside a room I built inside a warbdrobe. the safe is locked into place with timber panels the panels locked in with silicone. Removing the safe with with access to keys and tools is 1 hour process and you have to make a lot of noise partially destroying the enclosure. I figure if they are going to steal the safe they probably will, but it won't be easy.

Unfortunately, experienced theives have seen it all and there is really no way to stop a determined theif, but that is what insurance is for.

[adam]

Unfortunately, experienced theives have seen it all and there is really no way to stop a determined theif, but that is what insurance is for.

Actually - there are ways of stopping thieves. ie: A few bouncing betties could work - but alas it's illegal for us to have any sort of trap for the low lifes... we're not even allowed to prepare an item in advance to assist us with self defense in a home invasion situation.

I agree that the more determined and prepared the thief, the less the chance of stopping them, but I figure if I can learn different ways to make it harder for the suckers - it can't hurt.

[adam]

I like that idea Bentaz...

I thought of another one this morning. Using an old piano (the ones that have the old key locks on them to stop people from opening up the top of them, or the keys). Heavy as all heck, so would meet the 150kg requirement. Would only be suitable for CAT A / B where wood storage in states that allow wooden storage (unless the inside was gutted and lined with metal). Still - probably not too many burglers would pay attention to an old piano sitting in the house...

[Gwion]

Discrete surveillance with hi-def off sight recording so the scum can be nabbed is probably the only realistic thing you can do. Anything you can think of, a thief has thought of as well, or read on a forum!

[Gwion]

240volts running through the safe with a biometric remote switch???

[adam]

Discrete surveillance with hi-def off sight recording so the scum can be nabbed is probably the only realistic thing you can do. Anything you can think of, a thief has thought of as well, or read on a forum!

Surveillance is a great idea - especially off site stuff.

In regards to anything I can think of (or read on a forum) - someone once told me the idea isn't to stop thieves - the idea is to make your place far more difficult than the next one, so they move on to an easier target.

So yes - experienced thieves would know far more than any ideas we could come up with, however I imagine most would give themselves a short window / time frame - especially if the house is alarmed and with camera's. A thief out to get my stuff in particular I couldn't stop - but if I'm just one of many targets, it might get 'too hard' and they move onto the next. It's a bit like diving. I don't need to outswim the shark, I just need to outswim the other divers.

As for 240v, I've been told by a guy who did that once to catch a thief who returned for a 2nd attempt. Didn't kill the thief, but there wasn't a 3rd attempt either. The only problem is that they didn't have video of it! (Or they have, but they're smart enough not to release it and get done in)...

[happyhunter]

Worst case scenario would be a national gun registry data is compromised, the information obtained by an organised crime group and a series of home invasions follows. There wouldn't be a lot that you coud do to protect yourself in that situation.

[adam]

I'm suspicious that it's still happening. There's not a mass series of home invasions, but a constant trickle - not enough for the government to get serious about it, but enough to be convenient for the governments to blame firearm owners instead of looking in their own back yard. Some of the ones I know about the owners have been extremely discrete. The thieves were there for one thing, and there are questions that remain about how they could have known. The more obvious answer points to either the registry, or someone getting access to books at a dealer.

[happyhunter]

Worst case scenario would be a national gun registry data is compromised, the information obtained by an organised crime group and a series of home invasions follows. There wouldn't be a lot that you coud do to protect yourself in that situation.

Didn't that already happen?

There was reports of it but the authorities denied it.

[Stubbles McBeard]

As for 240v, I've been told by a guy who did that once to catch a thief who returned for a 2nd attempt. Didn't kill the thief, but there wasn't a 3rd attempt either. The only problem is that they didn't have video of it! (Or they have, but they're smart enough not to release it and get done in)...

You know what's better than 240v... Electric fence energiser. You're less likely to burn your house down with it, and you can go hot across say the door and a mat on the floor in front of the safe... This could be my next project.

Edit: best car case scenario, the safe is in a carpeted room. Thread some thin gauge bare wire through the weave of the carpet, make a nice big earth grid. Touch the safe, get a whack. Use an energiser big enough, say 7.5kv 130km fence energiser, and you'll be extracting any would be thief from the ceiling is my bet.

[Baronvonrort]

I love the idea of multiple safes.

Not trying to fool any scumbags just dreaming of more storage space lol!

How about a safe laying down bolted to the floor, inside / under a foldout couch.
Open the couch and instead of getting a s**t nights sleep you get your guns out.

I like the idea of multiple safes as well, makes it a lucky dip for the crims.

They make couch and bed safes which could be good in some cases, by having a second hidden safe if criminals ever asked you to open the dummy safe in open view when they discover it's empty you could say your guns are on loan to friends or at the gunsmiths.

I wouldn't mind a couch like this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xzp6ogLi3g

[adam]

I wouldn't mind a couch like this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xzp6ogLi3g

That is a brilliant idea..., and would probably meet Australian standards. (Locks up, not just hidden, and I'm guessing it'd weigh a good amount)...

That's the sort of stuff I'm interested in - thanks for the find!

[happyhunter]

..if criminals ever asked you to open the dummy safe in open view when they discover it's empty you could say your guns are on loan to friends or at the gunsmiths.

I wouldn't mind a couch like this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xzp6ogLi3g

This cracks me up

People who invade your home are not going to just leave because you tell them the guns are at a mates. After they beat you to an inch of your life, they will be asking for the mates address.

[adam]

This cracks me up

People who invade your home are not going to just leave because you tell them the guns are at a mates. After they beat you to an inch of your life, they will be asking for the mates address.

Most house invasions in Australia looking for firearms have been when people haven't been at home. In those situations they waste time trying to open a safe. (Or alternatively carry it out and put it in their boot), and cut it open elsewhere.

I think decoy safes (if the real one is well hidden) isn't a bad option and would work in a number of situations. The problem is expense and practicality, but hardly the situation you've proposed.

[Gwion]

Beyond the registry, i think taking details down in an exercise book at the LGS is just an absurd breach of privacy and personal security.

[scotty87]

cut the back out of a fridge box and put it over your safe, stack other noisy or heavy worthless objects around it, weights, barbells, car parts etc.

live around old people with nicer toys, thieves are less likely to target your bust arse bolt action when they can just back your neighbours 200 series up to his $100,000 offroad camper and drive away under a few minutes.

[SendIt]

Couch bunker = Awesome

[Gwion]

Do not under estimate the effect of a dog or two. In populated areas they don't have to be big, just noisy. In more remote areas, some size helps but better if they live inside. Try breaking into a house with a couple of large and protective mutts waiting inside.

I also like the idea of a well concealed and lockable cellar/bunker. No chance of retro fitting one to a house on a concrete slab but very doable in a build.

[Chronos]

Our safe storage requirements are there to stop kids and guests getting acces to your guns, nothing more. Not many of the safes we use would keep anyone out for long and if they're serious enough to come around specifically after firearms id rather them get the gear and leave than be waiting when I or my wife get home.

Chronos

[Gwion]

Our safe storage requirements are there to stop kids and guests getting acces to your guns, nothing more. Not many of the safes we use would keep anyone out for long and if they're serious enough to come around specifically after firearms id rather them get the gear and leave than be waiting when I or my wife get home.

Chronos

You have a good point there.

[Supporter]

Our safe storage requirements are there to stop kids and guests getting acces to your guns, nothing more.

And opportunistic thieves, that's actually more the point IMO.

Your average burglar isn't walking around with a 5ft crow bar and angle grinder, more likely just a screwdriver or similar to bugger a lock or pop a window with.

They're not getting into any gun safe with a pocket size flat head.

But I agree with your other point, if thieves come prepared with the purposes of opening a safe, better safes add time required to crack them causing crims to hopefully give up, run out of time or be dissuaded. But there is no 100% guarantee.

[safeshot]

The safe properly attached to structure but inside a cupboard ie out of general site of stray visitors has to be the go. Avoid leaving gun stuff lthat is magazines lying about the house for stray visitors to see and blab about.
Just driving around I have seen a safe (once) inside a guys shed from the road. (!) In that shed were probably angle grinders etc.
Another give away was a CZ rifle box sticking up out of a guys rubbish bin.
Sheds are bad location too as they get cold and you can then get moisture condensing on the steel parts. This can still happen to inside safes so to counter condensation anyways I have a moisture absorber thing x Remington which can be plugged in and dried out once its shows it has absorbed all it can. I have had it for some years and it seems to work fine.
The endplay is a safe buys time and the dipsticks have to make a lot of noise getting in out or open.

[happyhunter]

Sheds are a really bad idea in rural areas. Around here shed breakins are common, house burgs are rare.

[juststarting]

This had to be done!

[Gwion]

Sheds are a really bad idea in rural areas. Around here shed breakins are common, house burgs are rare.

Hi def cameras that are well concealed.

You might not stop the pricks but you can sure as hell catch 'em!

[Stubbles McBeard]

Sheds are a really bad idea in rural areas. Around here shed breakins are common, house burgs are rare.

One of my mates is fifo, he had his motos and trailer stolen out of his shed when he was away, then they came back a few months later and took his guns. They just pulled the safe off the floor with a Ute, chucked it on the back, set his shed on fire and f***ed off. Sheds are a bad idea for gun storage in rural areas.