Bolting a safe in new place

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Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Archie » 19 Sep 2017, 9:59 am

Can anyone who is better than tools with me (which really means, anyone) tell me if / how I can legally (NSW) fit a safe using this as the anchor point? Previously I've only attached one into wood but that's not an option here, nor is bolting it to the floor, and I have nfi what I'm doing with this stuff. The photo is the inside of the drywall showing the metal framework; obviously there will be plasterboard over it when it's finished. I need to bolt it onto the framework but the bolt can't go through the other side of it either because then it'll poke out the wall on the other side.

Wall.png
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Stix » 19 Sep 2017, 12:48 pm

Archie,
I have some ideas, but why cant you bolt it to the floor...?
Also im not in NSW so would be helpful if you could post the requirements they state.
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Archie » 19 Sep 2017, 1:28 pm

Stix wrote:Archie,
I have some ideas, but why cant you bolt it to the floor...?
Also im not in NSW so would be helpful if you could post the requirements they state.


The specific piece of floor I'd need to drill is the third storey floor; Also I'm not 100% sure what is embedded in the concrete - whether there is any reinforcement or not - but I'm almost certain some plumbing runs at least close to it and I can't quite tell where. So I don't know if there's any risk of compromising either the concrete, hitting steel or damaging the plumbing. The location is not ideal but its really the only place I can see where the safe itself will be out of the way and out of sight, so trying to make it work anyway.

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass ... 5_V1.6.pdf
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by bladeracer » 19 Sep 2017, 2:46 pm

Archie wrote:Can anyone who is better than tools with me (which really means, anyone) tell me if / how I can legally (NSW) fit a safe using this as the anchor point? Previously I've only attached one into wood but that's not an option here, nor is bolting it to the floor, and I have nfi what I'm doing with this stuff. The photo is the inside of the drywall showing the metal framework; obviously there will be plasterboard over it when it's finished. I need to bolt it onto the framework but the bolt can't go through the other side of it either because then it'll poke out the wall on the other side.

Wall.png


Since you have access to the framing I would put in some timber nogs between the steel studs, then coach screw the safe into those.
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Stix » 19 Sep 2017, 3:14 pm

Gees...3 storey...id better stop complaining i have to cart mine through 10m of my house...!

Ok...a quick look at the regs all it says is "fixed"-it doesnt stipulate minimum size of fixings or breaking/pull through force...

So given that, just do as others state & screw in some timber noggings before the wall is lined.
Id use 2x35mm thick noggs of min 70mm wide...screw them in thru side of studs w/2xscrews each nog.
Take note of measurements/place them at appropriate height...
Then use 10mmx75 coach screws with a washer thru back of safe into the trimmers....if some pulls yr safe out they'll take the wall with them...forget the bolts-bolts can be used but not worth the hassle-especially if yr not handy or a carpenter.
Im workin atm but can send some example pics of what to do later...
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Stix » 19 Sep 2017, 3:58 pm

Archie,
Just a thought--is the dwelling currently under construction...?
If so, ask one of the tradesman to knock in a couple of noggings for you...any self respecting tradesman working on the job should do it for you for nothing...it would only take them a few minutes...!
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by GLS_1956 » 19 Sep 2017, 4:28 pm

Stix wrote:Archie,
Just a thought--is the dwelling currently under construction...?
If so, ask one of the tradesman to knock in a couple of noggings for you...any self respecting tradesman working on the job should do it for you for nothing...it would only take them a few minutes...!


I'm not sure what a "noggin" is, glory of being an American in America reading what an Aussie in Australia is writing. But I wonder if you cant get a cross piece installed between two or more vertical studs and be able to bolt to those.
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Stix » 19 Sep 2017, 4:46 pm

GLS_1956 wrote:
Stix wrote:Archie,
Just a thought--is the dwelling currently under construction...?
If so, ask one of the tradesman to knock in a couple of noggings for you...any self respecting tradesman working on the job should do it for you for nothing...it would only take them a few minutes...!


I'm not sure what a "noggin" is, glory of being an American in America reading what an Aussie in Australia is writing. But I wonder if you cant get a cross piece installed between two or more vertical studs and be able to bolt to those.


That cross piece you suggest installed between vertical members (called studs) is a nogging...!

Nice to know you Americans in America are in the same page...its just that you talk funny... :lol:
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Stix » 19 Sep 2017, 5:13 pm

sungazer wrote:Also a noggin may be your head or brain. The saying is "use your noggin"


Sungazer...are you my ol'man...? :lol:
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by GLS_1956 » 19 Sep 2017, 7:31 pm

Stix wrote:
GLS_1956 wrote:
Stix wrote:Archie,
Just a thought--is the dwelling currently under construction...?
If so, ask one of the tradesman to knock in a couple of noggings for you...any self respecting tradesman working on the job should do it for you for nothing...it would only take them a few minutes...!


I'm not sure what a "noggin" is, glory of being an American in America reading what an Aussie in Australia is writing. But I wonder if you cant get a cross piece installed between two or more vertical studs and be able to bolt to those.


That cross piece you suggest installed between vertical members (called studs) is a nogging...!

Nice to know you Americans in America are in the same page...its just that you talk funny... :lol:


We just call 'em cross pieces.
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by yoshie » 19 Sep 2017, 7:53 pm

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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Gwion » 20 Sep 2017, 6:37 am

GLS_1956 wrote:
Stix wrote:Archie,
Just a thought--is the dwelling currently under construction...?
If so, ask one of the tradesman to knock in a couple of noggings for you...any self respecting tradesman working on the job should do it for you for nothing...it would only take them a few minutes...!


I'm not sure what a "noggin" is, glory of being an American in America reading what an Aussie in Australia is writing. But I wonder if you cant get a cross piece installed between two or more vertical studs and be able to bolt to those.


That "cross piece" is a nogging.
(Edit: actually the cross piece is a nog and the system of horizontal bracing is called nogging: a noggin is also a small alcoholic drink or a small cup and, as mentioned, slang for one's head)


I agree with those suggesting you choose your mounting stud and glue a suitably sized piece of timber in it while the studs are still exposed. I can't see those steel studs being very cooperative with coach screws.
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Stix » 20 Sep 2017, 11:48 am

Gwion wrote:
GLS_1956 wrote:
Stix wrote:Archie,
Just a thought--is the dwelling currently under construction...?
If so, ask one of the tradesman to knock in a couple of noggings for you...any self respecting tradesman working on the job should do it for you for nothing...it would only take them a few minutes...!


I'm not sure what a "noggin" is, glory of being an American in America reading what an Aussie in Australia is writing. But I wonder if you cant get a cross piece installed between two or more vertical studs and be able to bolt to those.



I agree with those suggesting you choose your mounting stud and glue a suitably sized piece of timber in it while the studs are still exposed. I can't see those steel studs being very cooperative with coach screws.


Screwing into the timber nogs avoids having to screw into the studs.
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Gwion » 20 Sep 2017, 12:08 pm

Stix wrote:
Screwing into the timber nogs avoids having to screw into the studs.



True but you can then only put one or two screws into one nog as standard spacing generally leaves only one nog in the height of a standard gun safe. I'd feel better with screws centered on a stud with 4 up the length of the safe. Some states stipulate the number & min standard of fixings required, not sure of what that is in the OP case.
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by bladeracer » 20 Sep 2017, 2:46 pm

Gwion wrote:
Stix wrote:
Screwing into the timber nogs avoids having to screw into the studs.



True but you can then only put one or two screws into one nog as standard spacing generally leaves only one nog in the height of a standard gun safe. I'd feel better with screws centered on a stud with 4 up the length of the safe. Some states stipulate the number & min standard of fixings required, not sure of what that is in the OP case.


I filled the entire space between the studs with nogs, on the flat, the full height of the safes. Basically the safe is bolted into an 80mm thick slab of timber.
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Stix » 20 Sep 2017, 4:46 pm

Gwion wrote:
Stix wrote:
Screwing into the timber nogs avoids having to screw into the studs.



True but you can then only put one or two screws into one nog as standard spacing generally leaves only one nog in the height of a standard gun safe. I'd feel better with screws centered on a stud with 4 up the length of the safe. Some states stipulate the number & min standard of fixings required, not sure of what that is in the OP case.


Yes correct...but the idea is not to screw into the existing noggings...i wouldnt anyway...for fear of disturbing the plastered joint on the other side & having it crack.
My suggestion was to put more trimmers in wall to suit the safe (im a carpenter & the term 'trimmer' is one many of us use for these "bits-a-wood", however i called them noggings earlier).

I would put 2 rows in on edge (oriented as blade has done-horizontal with narrow edge up) & double them up for depth in the wall.
If 2 rows of these are screwed in through the studs, with the safe fixed into them with 75mm coach screws (assuming 90mm depth wall) you have the benefit of extra pull thru force of coach screws & shear strength of nog/trimmer fixings & steel frame to fight against.
If the gun safe were then successfully "pulled out" with this or similar fixing system i can assure you it would most likely take the wall with it...!!
I have built with & demo'd steel frame, & although im not a fan of it structurally, ripping it out can be a pain, let alone dealing with a safe attached.

The wall will also be removed if someone successfully pulls Bladeracer's safe out how has done it...! But he has done it in such a way so as to not have to rely on accurate measurements to hit the nogs/noggin(gs)/trimmers/bits-a-wood with the fixings. :D
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Gwion » 20 Sep 2017, 6:24 pm

Fair enough. I thought you meant fixing with standard nogging spacing.
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Oldbloke » 20 Sep 2017, 6:59 pm

Sheesh, what a long and technical discussion about screwing a safe to the wall.
Put 2, maybe 3 additional noggins in the wall and screw the f***ing thing to the noggins using 4 or 6 screws. Cops will not dismantle the wall to check everything. Just give it a heave ho test. Just use very big screws and sheal be right mate. (unless the regs stipulate a screw size in your state) (I would use about 8 mm coach bolts)
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Stix » 20 Sep 2017, 7:25 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Sheesh, what a long and technical discussion about screwing a safe to the wall.
Put 2, maybe 3 additional noggins in the wall and screw the f***ing thing to the noggins using 4 or 6 screws. Cops will not dismantle the wall to check everything. Just give it a heave ho test. Just use very big screws and sheal be right mate. (unless the regs stipulate a screw size in your state) (I would use about 8 mm coach bolts)


Hehe...your right...long & technical...
Maybe i did drag it out but just wanted to be clear...
In my defence, the OP (from memory) did indicate he has no idea what to do & has no skill in the area...so if not for any other reason, i wanted to be clear for his sake & try help... :D ...but have not heard a peep from him...

(I also didnt want the master knife maker (Gwion) to think ill of me...especially with knives like that...! :lol: )

If i lived near the OP id go & do it for him, & the charge to him would be a coffee, & make him help carting my tools up to the 3rd storey...

BTW once in i wouldnt give it a big heave ho test, might put a hairline crack in the plaster joint both sides of the wall...

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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Oldbloke » 20 Sep 2017, 7:35 pm

Yeah, what happened to Archie?
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Stix » 20 Sep 2017, 7:43 pm

sungazer wrote:Ive seen the 10mm coach bolts mentioned somewhere. It may be the only state to stipulate a actual method. ... ... ...
Hence I would go with at least two in the wall and two in the floor.
... ... ...
The main point of safes was to provided safe storage in the home from children. Also to slow down a hot head from grabbing the gun from under the bed. We are being indoctrinated to accept stricter rules and regulations for reasons that were never intended.


I asked the OP & he posted regs...see earlier...no definitive description of how to fix that i could see in a quick skim...
Also think i said go 10mm coach bolts as 10mm dynabolts are normally supplied with safes...its a pretty standard size fixing for building...

I also think the safes are meant as a deterrent to thieves...

My belief is 4 fixings in wall that have the equivelant kilo-newton strength as a 4x14 gauge screw is plenty as a deterrant--basically means you have to cut the wall out to take it...

You are dead on about being too easily compliant... :clap:
I cant believe we cant use silencers or suppressors...i now wear plugs & muffs at the range & am 7/10ths deaf in my right ear...
But lets not go down that path eh... :crazy:
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Stix » 20 Sep 2017, 7:45 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Yeah, what happened to Archie?


Maybe he got plastered in the wall cavity behind the safe...can you hear any knocking &/or muffled cries for help...?
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Oldbloke » 20 Sep 2017, 7:50 pm

Stix wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:Yeah, what happened to Archie?


Maybe he got plastered in the wall cavity behind the safe...can you hear any knocking &/or muffled cries for help...?


:thumbsup: :lol:
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Re: Bolting a safe in new place

Post by Archie » 21 Sep 2017, 10:46 am

Cheers guys its been very helpful. Not stuck in wall cavity, just stuck at work. But you've given me some good ideas to get it sorted so thanks for the help.
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