7.62x39 for Sambar

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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigpete » 21 Nov 2022, 5:58 pm

wrenchman wrote:i am not familiar with the size of the sambar deer but the 7.62x39 is used here for the white tail deer it does seem like the hard part is finding ammo that performs well my oldest son has the ruger ranch rifle and it does seem to be his problem.
we have got dies so we can load for it and are looking at what we need


Think elk sized,maybe a tad smaller on average
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 21 Nov 2022, 6:11 pm

bigpete wrote:
wrenchman wrote:i am not familiar with the size of the sambar deer but the 7.62x39 is used here for the white tail deer it does seem like the hard part is finding ammo that performs well my oldest son has the ruger ranch rifle and it does seem to be his problem.
we have got dies so we can load for it and are looking at what we need


Think elk sized,maybe a tad smaller on average


I've never seen elk but in pictures they look enormous, bigger than horses.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Nov 2022, 7:55 pm

Think,

When its on the ground and 2km from the car, its Fukn big. :shock: :lol:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by wrenchman » 21 Nov 2022, 11:14 pm

the early ranch rifles were 308 my sons are 310 they had found that a lot of guys wanted to shoot the surplus ammo.
looking at the size of the sambar stag they are about the size of the tule elk and i would not hunt hunt one with the 7.62x39 only becouse i have better but i wouldnt knock a guy that does and puts the round were it should go.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 23 Nov 2022, 7:54 pm

I am planning on using my .357 magnum on my next Sambar hunt.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 23 Nov 2022, 9:48 pm

367 mag 158gr 1750fps
7.62x39 150gr 2100fps.
30.30 150gr 2300fps.
303 150gr 2600fps
308 150gr 2750fps
30.06 150gr 2950fps
Last edited by Oldbloke on 24 Nov 2022, 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 24 Nov 2022, 4:36 am

30-06 or 9.3x62 for me , thanks very much. Shot placement is very important for the humane ending of the animal, why wouldn’t you use ample energy for the job ?
From everything I’ve been told about sambar, they have the ability to soak up a poor placed shot and disappear into thick bush.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 24 Nov 2022, 7:32 am

bigrich wrote:30-06 or 9.3x62 for me , thanks very much. Shot placement is very important for the humane ending of the animal, why wouldn’t you use ample energy for the job ?
From everything I’ve been told about sambar, they have the ability to soak up a poor placed shot and disappear into thick bush.


It's a common scenario I'm afraid.
And this is partly because unlike most deer, sambar generally stay close to thick bush and don't need to go very far at all to "disappear". Their colour doesn't help either.
And they are big.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 24 Nov 2022, 11:25 am

Oldbloke wrote:367 mag 158gr 1750fps
7.62x39 150gr 2100fps.
30.30 150gr 2300fps.
303 150gr 2600fps
308 150gr 2750fps
30.06 150gr 2950fps


I am inclined to try my .44 Mag, but I'm apprehensive about the .357. Both are lever-actions so lack the precision required for head-shots, for me. Both give me around 3-minute groups scoped off the bench at 100m under ideal conditions. Offhand probably double that at least, rested against a tree I'd maybe bet on a consistent 5-minutes under field conditions. The .44Mag makes 1750fps with 240gn bullets, over 2000fps with 180gn XTP's and could still be pushed a little harder. I'm sure if I take the .44 to get down into the thick stuff, I'm going to find myself up in a clearing wishing I brought the 7mm-08.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 24 Nov 2022, 12:22 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:367 mag 158gr 1750fps
7.62x39 150gr 2100fps.
30.30 150gr 2300fps.
303 150gr 2600fps
308 150gr 2750fps
30.06 150gr 2950fps


I am inclined to try my .44 Mag, but I'm apprehensive about the .357. Both are lever-actions so lack the precision required for head-shots, for me. Both give me around 3-minute groups scoped off the bench at 100m under ideal conditions. Offhand probably double that at least, rested against a tree I'd maybe bet on a consistent 5-minutes under field conditions. The .44Mag makes 1750fps with 240gn bullets, over 2000fps with 180gn XTP's and could still be pushed a little harder. I'm sure if I take the .44 to get down into the thick stuff, I'm going to find myself up in a clearing wishing I brought the 7mm-08.


I gave up on lever guns for exactly the reason you just gave. Their range limited. I use 2.5-8x 36 loopys on my 30-06 and 9.3 . Wind it down for the thick stuff and 8 power is enough magnification for longer shots on pigs and such. I’ve found less magnification more useful than too much. It makes for a flexible combination for the hunting I do :thumbsup:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigpete » 24 Nov 2022, 1:15 pm

bigrich wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:367 mag 158gr 1750fps
7.62x39 150gr 2100fps.
30.30 150gr 2300fps.
303 150gr 2600fps
308 150gr 2750fps
30.06 150gr 2950fps


I am inclined to try my .44 Mag, but I'm apprehensive about the .357. Both are lever-actions so lack the precision required for head-shots, for me. Both give me around 3-minute groups scoped off the bench at 100m under ideal conditions. Offhand probably double that at least, rested against a tree I'd maybe bet on a consistent 5-minutes under field conditions. The .44Mag makes 1750fps with 240gn bullets, over 2000fps with 180gn XTP's and could still be pushed a little harder. I'm sure if I take the .44 to get down into the thick stuff, I'm going to find myself up in a clearing wishing I brought the 7mm-08.


I gave up on lever guns for exactly the reason you just gave. Their range limited. I use 2.5-8x 36 loopys on my 30-06 and 9.3 . Wind it down for the thick stuff and 8 power is enough magnification for longer shots on pigs and such. I’ve found less magnification more useful than too much. It makes for a flexible combination for the hunting I do :thumbsup:

Sounds like good solid reasoning there
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by animalpest » 24 Nov 2022, 2:17 pm

Having never hunted Sambar, but hunted plenty of big stuff in the the thick, I would be opting for more horsepower than the 7.62x39. Sure, for near perfect shots, it will do the job. My .222 will do that too.
I am with most here in that a good, low powered scope that can be cranked up to about 9x is what you need, along with a minimum of .308W to get penetration.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 24 Nov 2022, 2:35 pm

bigrich wrote:I gave up on lever guns for exactly the reason you just gave. Their range limited. I use 2.5-8x 36 loopys on my 30-06 and 9.3 . Wind it down for the thick stuff and 8 power is enough magnification for longer shots on pigs and such. I’ve found less magnification more useful than too much. It makes for a flexible combination for the hunting I do :thumbsup:


Yes, I'd like to get the .44 and the .30-30 down into the heavy stuff, but I think it'd be part of an endeavour where I can get a vehicle within a couple thousand metres of the area. Then I can have several rifles in the vehicle and explore different situations with them over several days. It is a fair bit of effort to hunt the areas I've been looking at. To spend hours down there only to be frustrated because I didn't bring enough reach would be annoying. Plus there are patches of open ground I have to traverse to get in there, and this is often where I spot targets from. And I'm not talking about really long shots, only to about 300m or so, but well beyond what I'd be willing to try with a lever, even scoped. On the really dense bush on our own blocks a compact lever would be so much easier to carry, but as the only targets I'm likely to see here are occasional rabbits and foxes (saw a hare last week), they lack the accuracy, so I generally just take a .22LR bolt-action when I'm having a look in there. A neighbour did take a small deer here about four years ago apparently, but that would be a real anomaly.

I'm actually going for a wander now through some of our bush, mainly for a look and to inspect the fencelines and fallen trees, but I also want to stop and plink some steels so I'm taking the old 1951 BSA Sportsman 5 open-sight .22LR. I suspect it'll start raining as soon as I set off :-)
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 24 Nov 2022, 2:53 pm

animalpest wrote:Having never hunted Sambar, but hunted plenty of big stuff in the the thick, I would be opting for more horsepower than the 7.62x39. Sure, for near perfect shots, it will do the job. My .222 will do that too.
I am with most here in that a good, low powered scope that can be cranked up to about 9x is what you need, along with a minimum of .308W to get penetration.


The perfect shot invariably seems to present when you don't even have a rifle at all, most of the time you'll be taking the best shot you can get in the conditions at the time, and probably well short of perfect. The numbers I presented earlier "Hornady offer the 150gn Interlock soft-point bullet in .308" and .312" for the Euro-calibres. At 400m the 2800fps .308 is down to 1750fps, which is the speed the 2200fps 7.62x39mm makes at 185m. So if you consider the .308Win to be effective at 400m, you would have to consider the 7.62x39mm to be equally effective out to at least 185m as the result on the target with the same bullet is going to be virtually identical. If you only consider the .308 to be effective out to 300m (1980fps) then the 7.62x39mm must be effective to 85m (1980fps) at least." do indicate that if you only consider the .308Win 150gn to be effective to 150m max, then you would have to consider the 7.62x39mm 150gn to be entirely ineffective, even at the muzzle. Clearly a simplification but it makes the point I think. It comes down to using a well-designed bullet that you can effectively put where you want it at the distance you're shooting, and have it impact, and function, at the optimal terminal velocity - regardless of the cartridge you're using. Really, if it were possible to take all shots from two-metres at an unaware and stationary target the chambering would be largely irrelevant.

What I've found with scopes is that every time I've been out looking for deer it's been raining, and that sucks for optics, even red-dots. It's possible to protect the lens from water while you're not actually using the rifle (the most effective seems to be the all-enveloping neoprene sock style), but when you do have a target, and it might take a minute or so to line up a shot, you already have splashes on the glass. Partly why I've been focussed a great deal on practicing with open sights and apertures. I had several aperture sight rifles out a couple weeks ago in heavy rain and found even those easily get water splashed into the apertures ruining the sight picture. I'm thinking rain might be why the Russians so preferred to use the rubber eye-pieces on their optics-equipped rifles.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by mchughcb » 24 Nov 2022, 5:22 pm

I dont know one person who has shot a sambar at 400m with a 308W.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 24 Nov 2022, 7:20 pm

Wasn't there some research that said most shots where under 100 yards on Sambar?

I have never shot one over this distance.

Seems a lot of people overcompensate for either lack of shooting skill or hunting skill by using overpowered calibers "just in case" they can't shoot well or are a long way away.

I have shot sambar with my 45/70, but I do so because I enjoy using it not because I think you need to use something like this as a well placed shot at a suitable range with a 7.62x39 will be more then enough.

The important thing, is a well placed shot and a suitable range .
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by mchughcb » 24 Nov 2022, 8:15 pm

The only time I've shot a 7.62x39 through an AK47 in the USA. I'm dubious it could pull the skin of a rice pudding let along drop a sambar at 200m with a chest shot.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 24 Nov 2022, 9:21 pm

Just got this of the web.
NFI how precise it is. But looks close enough.

Resized_tempFileForShare_20221124-221439_66903053653140.jpeg
Resized_tempFileForShare_20221124-221439_66903053653140.jpeg (282.62 KiB) Viewed 106 times
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by animalpest » 24 Nov 2022, 9:25 pm

mchughcb wrote:The only time I've shot a 7.62x39 through an AK47 in the USA. I'm dubious it could pull the skin of a rice pudding let along drop a sambar at 200m with a chest shot.


Haha, yep, me too. And I will also add I am not sure the AK47 I used was capable of hitting a rice pudding past 25m
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 24 Nov 2022, 10:29 pm

I think this is a bit more realistic for a 308.
150gr Hornady interlock. BC .338
ADI says 2900fps is about max.

From https://www.bergerbullets.com/ballistics/php/bb.php

IMHO Not really a 300 yard gun for Sambar.


tempFileForShare_20221124-232411_70011315904095.jpg
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by straightshooter » 25 Nov 2022, 11:33 am

I believe it is very fortunate for Sambar that they do not read ballistic tables nor appreciate that they are supposed to collapse instantly if shot at by one of the fashionably large high power long range calibers.
Proper shot placement will always trump a poorly placed shot.
So even the lowly 7.62x39 is in there with a chance if it is permitted and it is all that one has.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 25 Nov 2022, 12:02 pm

Oldbloke wrote:I think this is a bit more realistic for a 308.
150gr Hornady interlock. BC .338
ADI says 2900fps is about max.

From https://www.bergerbullets.com/ballistics/php/bb.php

IMHO Not really a 300 yard gun for Sambar.


tempFileForShare_20221124-232411_70011315904095.jpg


Which part of the chart do you feel makes the cartridge insufficient (considering it only shows velocity, energy and trajectory)?
2000fps is well above the minimum design velocity of most hunting bullets.
Wasn't the old rule of thumb for deer 800ft-lb of energy?
I don't see trajectory being relevant for boiler room shots at distances of a few hundred metres. It can be difficult to judge distance accurately through heavy bush (a laser will be useless) but you should be able to estimate it near enough that you shouldn't be more than a couple inches high or low.

I have seen a lot of reports on FB groups (from the US mainly) that the ELDX (and some other VLD/ELD-style bullets) can be velocity sensitive. A lot of those guys shoot their deer very close, similar to us I guess, and they find the bullets exploding (lots of damage) in the first half of the chest and barely making it through to the far ribs (talking about retained bullet weights of 30% to 50%). Discussing it with other shooters they found that with hits at significant ranges the bullet functioned perfectly. So they started downloading their ammo as much as 500fps to get their terminal velocities down into that region and started getting good results with the same bullet. That is too finnicky to consider reliable in my opinion. Stick with the old reliable soft-point or use a monolithic copper bullet.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigpete » 25 Nov 2022, 1:18 pm

Rule of thumb for whitetail deer is 1000ft/lb. From what I've read anyway.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by No1_49er » 25 Nov 2022, 2:56 pm

bladeracer wrote: It can be difficult to judge distance accurately through heavy bush (a laser will be useless) but you should be able to estimate it near enough that you shouldn't be more than a couple inches high or low.


Now, let me see if I've got this correct. Or did I miss something?
If you can't judge the distance, and the heavy bush is such that a laser (range finder?) is useless, what f*king right have you got for taking a shot?
Oh, that's right. Your bullet will easily traverse the tunnel through the heavy bush along the path that the laser could not.
Yeh, I get it.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 25 Nov 2022, 3:15 pm

No1_49er wrote:
bladeracer wrote: It can be difficult to judge distance accurately through heavy bush (a laser will be useless) but you should be able to estimate it near enough that you shouldn't be more than a couple inches high or low.


Now, let me see if I've got this correct. Or did I miss something?
If you can't judge the distance, and the heavy bush is such that a laser (range finder?) is useless, what f*king right have you got for taking a shot?
Oh, that's right. Your bullet will easily traverse the tunnel through the heavy bush along the path that the laser could not.
Yeh, I get it.


First, I'm referring to "heavy bush" as the terrain, not the line of sight specifically.
Have you tried lasing distances in the bush?
I'm not talking about a "tunnel", it's just very difficult to get accurate measurements, in my experience, when there is foliage and such around your line of sight. Even the few twigs and leaves close to my line of sight when I'm ranging paper and steel targets in the bush messes up the laser.

It's not necessarily true that a bullet won't pass through the light bush that obstructs a clear line of sight just fine (if you can identify a viable target through it far enough away that you need to estimate the distance for trajectory it's not likely to be very heavy bush), probably without hitting anything at all, let alone anything significant. I'm sure lots and lots of successful shots have trimmed off twigs and leaves en-route to the target without any issues at all. Whether you feel you have a shot is down to the individual shooter in the situation - it is certainly not down to a keyboard warrior to make such proclamations on what other people have "no right" to be doing...next you'll be trying the "unethical" bullying technique I've been seeing a lot on hunting forums...
But if you get off on passing judgement on other people you go for it.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 25 Nov 2022, 5:30 pm

bladeracer have you ever shot a sambar before? or hunted them?
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 25 Nov 2022, 6:38 pm

Fionn wrote:bladeracer have you ever shot a sambar before? or hunted them?


Hunted them, never shot one yet.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 25 Nov 2022, 6:46 pm

No1_49er wrote:Now, let me see if I've got this correct. Or did I miss something?
If you can't judge the distance, and the heavy bush is such that a laser (range finder?) is useless, what f*king right have you got for taking a shot?
Oh, that's right. Your bullet will easily traverse the tunnel through the heavy bush along the path that the laser could not.
Yeh, I get it.


Since I was in the bush today anyway I tried getting some lased distances through various amounts of foliage and distances. Where I could find clear openings through the foliage of maybe 300mm diameter I was able to get measurements out to about 60m, fairly reliably. Of course, entirely unnecessarily at such distances. To be able to consider the measurement to be reliable I could fairly accurately judge the distance anyway - the 8m, 19m and such readings were obviously wrong. I would expect lots of bow hunters use rangefinders in heavy terrain due to their trajectories. Further than 60m even where I could see gaps I couldn't get any remotely accurate measurements at all. But I could certainly take shots though it.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 25 Nov 2022, 9:12 pm

bigpete wrote:Rule of thumb for whitetail deer is 1000ft/lb. From what I've read anyway.


Yep, same here.
Weight
White tail up to 330lb
Sambar up to 630lb

https://gf.nd.gov/wildlife/id/ungulates ... ailed-deer

I don't think the 1000lb rule would apply give the weight difference
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 25 Nov 2022, 9:41 pm

"Which part of the chart do you feel makes the cartridge insufficient (considering it only shows velocity, energy and trajectory)?
2000fps is well above the minimum design velocity of most hunting bullets.
Wasn't the old rule of thumb for deer 800ft-lb of energy"

See weights above see energy figures of 308. IMO it's only a 250yard cartridge for sambar. (Reliably), (1603 ftlb)
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