Victorian Deer Cartridge requirements

[bladeracer]

Oh dear, I did get a Google hit

[mchughcb]

Here's the public number. They will direct your call. Go for it and let us all know how you get on.

Call the Customer Service Centre on 136 186 from anywhere in Australia for the cost of a local call (except for mobiles and public telephones, which have additional costs).

[Oldbloke]

I reckon the round ball weight for a muzzle loader should be lowered from 200gr to 170gr. This would allow .50 cal for fallow. I don't think 30gr will make any real difference in this case.

[Ziege]

cant get over how willing people are to be regulated in this country. its sickening when you look at it seriously

[bladeracer]

I reckon the round ball weight for a muzzle loader should be lowered from 200gr to 170gr. This would allow .50 cal for fallow. I don't think 30gr will make any real difference in this case.

Yes, it looks like the intention was to prevent us from using round ball, without specifically stating it. It should probably just state the minimum as "a soft-lead round ball of not less than .440" diameter".

And the intention of the "Smoothbore Firearms" section appears to be aimed at prohibiting smoothbore muzzleloaders completely.

[Oldbloke]

I reckon the round ball weight for a muzzle loader should be lowered from 200gr to 170gr. This would allow .50 cal for fallow. I don't think 30gr will make any real difference in this case.

Yes, it looks like the intention was to prevent us from using round ball, without specifically stating it. It should probably just state the minimum as "a soft-lead round ball of not less than .440" diameter".

And the intention of the "Smoothbore Firearms" section appears to be aimed at prohibiting smoothbore muzzleloaders completely.

I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps your right.

[mchughcb]

Well its been over 2 weeks now on this thread. How did you go with the GMA getting answers to your cartridge questions?

[mchughcb]

Just checking in its 3 weeks now on this thread. How did you go with the GMA getting answers to your cartridge questions?

[Oldbloke]

"I'm a BS Professor" I agree.

Be happy.

[bladeracer]

Just checking in its 3 weeks now on this thread. How did you go with the GMA getting answers to your cartridge questions?

Do you have anything to contribute to this thread at all?

[bigpete]

I reckon the round ball weight for a muzzle loader should be lowered from 200gr to 170gr. This would allow .50 cal for fallow. I don't think 30gr will make any real difference in this case.

Yes, it looks like the intention was to prevent us from using round ball, without specifically stating it. It should probably just state the minimum as "a soft-lead round ball of not less than .440" diameter".

And the intention of the "Smoothbore Firearms" section appears to be aimed at prohibiting smoothbore muzzleloaders completely.

How do you figure that ?

[bladeracer]

I reckon the round ball weight for a muzzle loader should be lowered from 200gr to 170gr. This would allow .50 cal for fallow. I don't think 30gr will make any real difference in this case.

Yes, it looks like the intention was to prevent us from using round ball, without specifically stating it. It should probably just state the minimum as "a soft-lead round ball of not less than .440" diameter".

And the intention of the "Smoothbore Firearms" section appears to be aimed at prohibiting smoothbore muzzleloaders completely.

How do you figure that ?

How do I figure which bit?

"Muzzleloading Rifles" obviously rules out unrifled barrels, and the 230gn minimum bullet weight means minimum of .54 caliber (if you use round balls and thin patches - 230gn ball requires .535" minimum diameter). Skirted bullets would be fine as long as they're not too hollow - the Lee REAL .45 250gn bullet would be good for sambar, the 200gn would not.

"Smoothbore Firearms" obviously includes muzzleloaders, but only .615" caliber or higher. A .615" round ball is 350gn (pure lead). Something like a Brown Bess would be okay.

I was thinking about the fact that I use .440" balls in my rifle, which obviously wouldn't be legal under the ".45 caliber" requirement, but it only specifies that the firearm must be of that minimum bore diameter, not the bullet (or any other random projectile you want to use). So an 80gn .224" bullet would be legal for the smaller species, as long as you are firing it from a .243" or larger bore - either paper-patched or saboted. Likewise a 130gn 6.5mm bullet would be legal for the larger species as long as it's fired from a larger caliber firearm.

[bigpete]

The bit where you reckon it makes it harder to use smooth bore muzzleloaders. All you need is a set of sights really.

[mchughcb]

Correct

[bladeracer]

The bit where you reckon it makes it harder to use smooth bore muzzleloaders. All you need is a set of sights really.

Are there many smoothbore muzzleloaders that come with rifle sights though?

[mchughcb]

Why should I be required to have done anything to ask you to explain how you came up with this?

Seriously Dude, I have provided a list of some of the things i put in the RIS submission in a private capacity. Some adopted by the government in the Regulations. Some not.

You are asking me to justify myself or regulations and I asked you to contact Simon who oversaw the writing if the Regs. You didn't even know who he is and for whatever reason haven't contacted him to discuss your concerns. The new Regs are due in 2 years of which there will be a lead up for new proposals.

If you want to have a spray about what other people did rather than contact the GMA to discuss your concerns then it will be your loss going forward.

[Oldbloke]

Ok. Ill repeat. I think a 50 cal muzzle loaders round ball is plenty for fallow. IMO. Currently not allowed. Misses out by 30 grains.
A .490 lead ball is 177gr.

Im ok with sights on a 12g. Seems sensible to me.

[bigpete]

The bit where you reckon it makes it harder to use smooth bore muzzleloaders. All you need is a set of sights really.

Are there many smoothbore muzzleloaders that come with rifle sights though?

Not hard to add them !

[bladeracer]

Let me address your last point first, since it's the only reason you are following this thread. I have not "had a spray" about anything anybody has done, that's just how you prefer to view it, which I find childish. If you actually wanted to help, I guess you would. You won't even acknowledge that this regulation is flawed, extremely flawed in my opinion, and totally worthless and impossible to enforce because it is so poorly worded.

I just read back through the thread and I'm not seeing this "list" you say you provided, but I'd love to see it as it might actually contribute something to this thread.

I'm more than happy to take the issue up with this guy, after we've seen some useful discussion of the regulation and how it might be fixed, I don't see any point in wasting his time or mine until then. You're welcome to discuss it with him though if you are chatting with him occasionally. I also can't see any relevance to my not knowing of him, did you know he existed before you had heard of him?

I have written to GMA about this issue at least once, some time ago, and I jump at every opportunity to mention it on their FB feed. When we have put together something potentially workable I'll submit it.

Now, if you plan to just duck in here now and then to see if anybody is badmouthing you (nobody is), please do it silently, unless you have something useful to contribute.

Why should I be required to have done anything to ask you to explain how you came up with this?

Seriously Dude, I have provided a list of some of the things i put in the RIS submission in a private capacity. Some adopted by the government in the Regulations. Some not.

You are asking me to justify myself or regulations and I asked you to contact Simon who oversaw the writing if the Regs. You didn't even know who he is and for whatever reason haven't contacted him to discuss your concerns. The new Regs are due in 2 years of which there will be a lead up for new proposals.

If you want to have a spray about what other people did rather than contact the GMA to discuss your concerns then it will be your loss going forward.

[bladeracer]

The bit where you reckon it makes it harder to use smooth bore muzzleloaders. All you need is a set of sights really.

Are there many smoothbore muzzleloaders that come with rifle sights though?

Not hard to add them !

Certainly it's possible, but why should it be a requirement? Deer were taken for centuries with smoothbore muskets with just a bead front sight. I personally wouldn't want to modify an original musket this way.

[Oldbloke]

"I also can't see any relevance to my not knowing of him, did you know he existed before you had heard of him?"

I didn't know of him either. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. It is a stupid expectation that we are expected to know who is the head of every Gov department just so we can have an opinion on some subject.

[bladeracer]

Ok. Ill repeat. I think a 50 cal muzzle loaders round ball is plenty for fallow. IMO. Currently not allowed. Misses out by 30 grains.
A .490 lead ball is 177gr.

Im ok with sights on a 12g. Seems sensible to me.

Agreed, even a .45" round ball would be adequate, with sufficient velocity, but of course this regulation completely ignores velocity, or energy.

My first 12ga had rifle sights and I do prefer them, but I don't see any requirement to legislate it. My Stoeger only had a bead sight and it grouped slugs just fine out to 50m at least. But as range is also ignored in this regulation I guess they just assumed people hunt with slugs out to hundreds of meters.

[Oldbloke]

A .177 gr ball starting at 1500fps will still be doing 918fps at 100 yards. (A starting load)

Same ball leaving the muzzle at 1860 will still be doing 1060 fps at 100 yards. A middle of the road load. (Heaps for fallow)

I think the problem with stipulating velocity is that in court it would be impossible to prove. Esp with reloading and muzzle loaders.

[mchughcb]

"I also can't see any relevance to my not knowing of him, did you know he existed before you had heard of him?"

I didn't know of him either. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. It is a stupid expectation that we are expected to know who is the head of every Gov department just so we can have an opinion on some subject.

You can have all the opinions you like. Nobody said otherwise.

If you think you can influence anything if you don't even know who the key government bureaucrats are and Simon has been in a senior role for the best part of 2 decades then good luck.

[mchughcb]

Yeah I do. I have his mobile and I am not giving to an internet nobody. You call his department tomorrow and they will take your call.

That's fine but can you at least tell me what his "department" is so I can Google his office number myself?

Tried Facebook just now, nothing.
Who is he if he has even less internet presence than a nobody like me?

I thought you were going to call him to discuss the deficiency of the current game regulations with regards to cartridge requirements and ask what can be done in your opinion to improve this going forward.

As you didn't have a name in the department I provided one. I'm not running the GMA nor a representating one of the major hunting organizations anymore.

If you want to complain about why the regulations require a sight on smoothbores and not do anything useful about it other than agree with people who are describing people who contributed to the 2012 current game regulations with expletives thats ok too.

I did my bit voluntarily 10 years ago now. Its time for the meek to inherit the earth.

[bladeracer]

The meek will have to live with regulations concocted on beer mats, but only until others try to correct the mess that has been left for us to fix.

Yeah I do. I have his mobile and I am not giving to an internet nobody. You call his department tomorrow and they will take your call.

That's fine but can you at least tell me what his "department" is so I can Google his office number myself?

Tried Facebook just now, nothing.
Who is he if he has even less internet presence than a nobody like me?

I thought you were going to call him to discuss the deficiency of the current game regulations with regards to cartridge requirements and ask what can be done in your opinion to improve this going forward.

As you didn't have a name in the department I provided one. I'm not running the GMA nor a representating one of the major hunting organizations anymore.

If you want to complain about why the regulations require a sight on smoothbores and not do anything useful about it other than agree with people who are describing people who contributed to the 2012 current game regulations with expletives thats ok too.

I did my bit voluntarily 10 years ago now. Its time for the meek to inherit the earth.

[Fionn]

Just checking in its 3 weeks now on this thread. How did you go with the GMA getting answers to your cartridge questions?

What was your role in drafting the act or regulations?

You talk a lot in round about ways of what you did with out actually giving your role and or any details or specifically what you did.

Can you clarify what you actually did, in what capacity?

[Hatchet Jack]

I have been meaning to contact the GMA to ask if the laws will ever be reviewed so this thread it quite the fortuitous one to come across. I have shied away from opportunities at slow twist 50 cal muzzleloaders for the very reason that PRB aren't legal.

I wouldn't have qualms with broadside shots on a red stag from 50 metres. And would generally find it plenty on fallow and hog deer at the ranges I shoot those species.

[Oldbloke]

I have been meaning to contact the GMA to ask if the laws will ever be reviewed so this thread it quite the fortuitous one to come across. I have shied away from opportunities at slow twist 50 cal muzzleloaders for the very reason that PRB aren't legal.

I wouldn't have qualms with broadside shots on a red stag from 50 metres. And would generally find it plenty on fallow and hog deer at the ranges I shoot those species.

Yes, energy figures suggest it would be plenty.

[bigpete]

Easy way to solve it,but a .54 lol