Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need it

Game hunting and large prey. Deer stalking, hunting with hounds. Boar, pigs etc., large prey, culling, hunting large feral animals.

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 9:47 pm

Not being fully aware of all mechanical aspects of a trigger/bolt mechanism, would be great if a picture could accompany some of the above - especially when referring to certain makes eg Mauser positive feed systems and similar.
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Dec 2018, 10:09 pm

Heres the Howa Hact Trigger - scroll down you will see pics of it :D

https://www.pulverdampf.com/viewtopic.php?t=23009
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 13 Dec 2018, 10:15 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Heres the Howa Hact Trigger - scroll down you will see pics of it :D

https://www.pulverdampf.com/viewtopic.php?t=23009


Need Bigrich to translate this for us...
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
Stix
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3675
South Australia

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Dec 2018, 10:18 pm

Stix wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:Heres the Howa Hact Trigger - scroll down you will see pics of it :D

https://www.pulverdampf.com/viewtopic.php?t=23009


Need Bigrich to translate this for us...


I'd say he's just explaining how to pull the trigger apart and tune it going by what I can see. :unknown:
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 11:22 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Heres the Howa Hact Trigger - scroll down you will see pics of it :D

https://www.pulverdampf.com/viewtopic.php?t=23009


Geeeeeezus....I think I need a Weiner schnitzel to get me in the mood to try and work out wtf...not one word looked like “sear” sonim still confused lol
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 14 Dec 2018, 12:14 am

TassieTiger wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:Heres the Howa Hact Trigger - scroll down you will see pics of it :D

https://www.pulverdampf.com/viewtopic.php?t=23009


Geeeeeezus....I think I need a Weiner schnitzel to get me in the mood to try and work out wtf...not one word looked like “sear” sonim still confused lol



Well Tassie...if you were closer i could help you out with that Weiner schnizel...

I was inconvenienced by a mate this evening & I havnt had dinner because i had to go & rescue some write-off veal...a good few kilo's of it... cos he doesnt have room in his fridge
. :D

Need some good veal recipe's now....
Attachments
2018-12-13 22.06.16.jpg
A few veal schnitty's...
2018-12-13 22.06.16.jpg (454.66 KiB) Viewed 6731 times
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
Stix
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3675
South Australia

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Dec 2018, 1:27 am

Hey Stix , what sort of crivac machine do you use mate they look nice bags thick and neat
Member-Deleted
 

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by marksman » 14 Dec 2018, 7:33 am

TassieTiger wrote:Not being fully aware of all mechanical aspects of a trigger/bolt mechanism, would be great if a picture could accompany some of the above - especially when referring to certain makes eg Mauser positive feed systems and similar.



cocked bolt
Image

uncocked bolt
Image

this bolt has the firing pin set at the recommended 2mm
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
User avatar
marksman
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3660
Victoria

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 8:12 am

Whats the bolt out of?
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 8:14 am

You know what we need, we need the Myth Busters to do an experiment to see just how true or false this whole thing is. :D
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 8:56 am

This is the Howa bolt

Image

Image

I also decocked the bolt and the firing pin protrudes about 2mm or so but I can't see how it will set off a primer because it is resting against it, it really would need force ie being cocked and under spring-loaded tension to set it off as far as I can figure out.

As I've said I've carried my rifles plenty of times with one up the spout and decocked and never an issue and I just can't figure out how it would set it off without some sort of force (spring loaded tension on the pin) to make the primer detonate, I pushed on the back of the firing pin with a screwdriver and there is no movement whatsoever so it can't strike the primer as such, not sure about other firearm setups but I think this one is ok certainly has been all these years :unknown:
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 14 Dec 2018, 9:10 am

Hey Stix , what sort of crivac machine do you use mate they look nice bags thick and neat


I didnt pack that ...thats how it came, packed at slaughter house i guess.
Yes the bags look & feel good-id like ine of those machines... :thumbsup:

I have the waeco vaccuum machine...it was pricy but was the only one at the time i could find worked on 12v as well....
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
Stix
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3675
South Australia

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 9:51 am

marksman wrote:
TassieTiger wrote:Not being fully aware of all mechanical aspects of a trigger/bolt mechanism, would be great if a picture could accompany some of the above - especially when referring to certain makes eg Mauser positive feed systems and similar.



cocked bolt
Image

uncocked bolt
Image

this bolt has the firing pin set at the recommended 2mm


Thank you for taking the time.
I need to research more about trigger / bolt systems. I knew the firing pin exited the bolt, - didn’t know the term applied to cocked / uncocked when pin was proud.
Cheers.
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 14 Dec 2018, 1:34 pm

bigfellascott wrote:This is the Howa bolt
I also decocked the bolt and the firing pin protrudes about 2mm or so but I can't see how it will set off a primer because it is resting against it, it really would need force ie being cocked and under spring-loaded tension to set it off as far as I can figure out.

As I've said I've carried my rifles plenty of times with one up the spout and decocked and never an issue and I just can't figure out how it would set it off without some sort of force (spring loaded tension on the pin) to make the primer detonate, I pushed on the back of the firing pin with a screwdriver and there is no movement whatsoever so it can't strike the primer as such, not sure about other firearm setups but I think this one is ok certainly has been all these years :unknown:


I've never diassembled a Howa bolt to see how they work.

If you have the striker pressed against the primer under spring tension, and you bang the butt hard enough, you can bounce the striker against the spring, which can fire the primer. If the cocking piece is exposed, as on most milsurps, a knock to the cocking piece will also fire the primer.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12653
Victoria

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by marksman » 14 Dec 2018, 1:34 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Whats the bolt out of?


that is a mauser 98 bolt but it is common for all makes to have a 2mm firing pin protrusion

the way it has been related to me as to why you would not have an uncocked bolt on a live chambered round is that the firearm may discharge if it is dropped or bumped hard, maybe mythbusters would be the best people to figure this out :lol:

but what we were talking about was if you have a cock on open firearm and chamber a round with a partially closed bolt or the bolt open you have a loaded firearm that if the cocking mechanism indent was worn and the slipped it may discharge the firearm :unknown:

I am not saying that this will definitely happen but I cannot say it would never happen so I cant confirm that this is a safe practice :unknown:
I am saying though that it would be wiser to take note of the manufacturers instructions on safe firearm use and that I have never seen a manufacturers booklet that says dont use a safety, ever :wtf: I do not believe you should trust the safety on a firearm so never point a firearm but use it as instructed

the feckwit in this story had the loaded firearm on top of his shoulder holding it by the barrel when he slipped in mud as they walked to his fresh kill hoping to see another one and the firearm discharged shooting his best mate he says he used the safety and it come off on its own, if he had not been such a hero and held the firearm in a way he could control where the muzzle was pointing he still may have had an accidental discharge but his mate would still be breathing because the muzzle was pointing in a safe direction, hero's always recon they are the safest shooters :crazy:
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
User avatar
marksman
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3660
Victoria

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 14 Dec 2018, 1:35 pm

bigfellascott wrote:...but I think this one is ok certainly has been all these years :unknown:


This bloke that killed his mate thought he was safe for forty years himself...until he suddenly discovered he wasn't...
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12653
Victoria

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by marksman » 14 Dec 2018, 1:42 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:...but I think this one is ok certainly has been all these years :unknown:


This bloke that killed his mate thought he was safe for forty years himself...until he suddenly discovered he wasn't...


you are right blade, we can get complacent as we get experience, its not hard to be safe :drinks:
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
User avatar
marksman
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3660
Victoria

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 14 Dec 2018, 1:43 pm

marksman wrote:the feckwit in this story had the loaded firearm on top of his shoulder holding it by the barrel when he slipped in mud as they walked to his fresh kill hoping to see another one and the firearm discharged shooting his best mate he says he used the safety and it come off on its own, if he had not been such a hero and held the firearm in a way he could control where the muzzle was pointing he still may have had an accidental discharge but his mate would still be breathing because the muzzle was pointing in a safe direction, hero's always recon they are the safest shooters :crazy:


To clarify, he carried the rifle that way initially, which almost certainly negated the safety by allowing it to be disengaged against his pack, or anything else while it was out of his control - even tree branches or brush could disengage it very easily. And just as easily, another branch could pull the trigger, while he is waving the muzzle around.

He then took the rifle from his shoulder into his left hand, without checking the safety, or keeping it pointed in a safe direction, when he slipped in the slush, and the rifle fired. Falling or dropping a cocked rifle allows many uncontrolled interactions with the trigger that could fire it, branches, clothing, fingers, etc can all inadvertantly find their way into the trigger guard during a fall.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12653
Victoria

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 14 Dec 2018, 1:46 pm

marksman wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:...but I think this one is ok certainly has been all these years :unknown:


This bloke that killed his mate thought he was safe for forty years himself...until he suddenly discovered he wasn't...


you are right blade, we can get complacent as we get experience, its not hard to be safe :drinks:


When I bought my first M96 as a kid I carried it a few times with the bolt uncocked on a live round...until I disassembled the bolt and saw how it worked!
It was perfectly safe, in as much as it never fired, but it was a nasty "accident" just waiting for an opportune moment to strike me down, or somebody else.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12653
Victoria

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 4:15 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:...but I think this one is ok certainly has been all these years :unknown:


This bloke that killed his mate thought he was safe for forty years himself...until he suddenly discovered he wasn't...


Yeah but he had a loaded and cocked rifle by the sounds of it and somehow disengaged the safety so it was infact live, somewhat different to a decocked but chambered round. :drinks:
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 4:25 pm

What do you make of the 3 position safety on the Howa rifles, Position 1 is ready to fire, position 2. sees the trigger or sear blocked but bolt can be still opened when it is cocked to then de cock it on opening to extract a round, and position 3. sees the trigger or sear blocked and bolt locked.
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by marksman » 14 Dec 2018, 5:03 pm

bladeracer wrote:
marksman wrote:the feckwit in this story had the loaded firearm on top of his shoulder holding it by the barrel when he slipped in mud as they walked to his fresh kill hoping to see another one and the firearm discharged shooting his best mate he says he used the safety and it come off on its own, if he had not been such a hero and held the firearm in a way he could control where the muzzle was pointing he still may have had an accidental discharge but his mate would still be breathing because the muzzle was pointing in a safe direction, hero's always recon they are the safest shooters :crazy:


To clarify, he carried the rifle that way initially, which almost certainly negated the safety by allowing it to be disengaged against his pack, or anything else while it was out of his control - even tree branches or brush could disengage it very easily. And just as easily, another branch could pull the trigger, while he is waving the muzzle around.

He then took the rifle from his shoulder into his left hand, without checking the safety, or keeping it pointed in a safe direction, when he slipped in the slush, and the rifle fired. Falling or dropping a cocked rifle allows many uncontrolled interactions with the trigger that could fire it, branches, clothing, fingers, etc can all inadvertantly find their way into the trigger guard during a fall.


and as I said blade if he had carried the firearm safely eg.. 2 handed carry he would have controlled the muzzle's direction and not killed his mate
it does not matter what caused the discharge, he was not in control of the firearm, the firearm does not have a mind of it's own
but then again it might have been one of those Remington's that have a mind of the own and shoot when they feel like it
www.cnbc.com/remington-under-fire/

scott it doesn't matter what we think of the howa safety, it's approved as safe :unknown:
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
User avatar
marksman
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3660
Victoria

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 14 Dec 2018, 5:48 pm

bigfellascott wrote:What do you make of the 3 position safety on the Howa rifles, Position 1 is ready to fire, position 2. sees the trigger or sear blocked but bolt can be still opened when it is cocked to then de cock it on opening to extract a round, and position 3. sees the trigger or sear blocked and bolt locked.


I don't really see any need for it. If you're not ready to fire you don't need a safety as you won't have a round chambered, if you are ready to fire, you don't need the safety anyway.
I was lucky to learn early, and without mishap, that a safety isn't. Don't use it and you will never find yourself relying on it.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12653
Victoria

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by sungazer » 14 Dec 2018, 6:30 pm

A Barnard firing pin protrusion length sorry it is off topic For example we have always used .050” to .055” protrusion length for the firing pin tip, some of our dealers have always preferred .060” protrusion.

I dont have the pictures but on most firearms the cock on opening. You will see a litlle part of the back of the firing pin sitting it a slight indent at the top of a ramp. When you close the bolt it moves the small bit of the back of the firing pin from the bolt stopping it to the sear of the gun that holds it in the same position backward. as you close the bolt you are moving the back of the firing pin back across that ramp which helped move it back against a spring to hopefully the fully closed bold position which will give that firing pin clear access to move forward when released.

If the bolt was only closed half way the back of the firing pin may be in line with half way along that ramp but still held back by the trigger sear somewhat. If the trigger was pulled in this state the firing pin would move forward it may move enough to hit the primer the locking lugs may not be full engaged. Its impossible to come up with all the outcomes but a lot of them are not good.
sungazer
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1525
Other

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 6:38 pm

The Howa Bolt Disassembled.

Image

Image

Image
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 14 Dec 2018, 6:39 pm

Im no bolt/action expert...& im not sure if its worth mentioning this minor point...

For those unaware Its worth noting that many rifles the extractor only picks the round up when the bolt is fully closed/on the down stroke if you get me....

Ive been in the scenario where game is seen & a round chambered but leave bolt up to be ready...
Game disappears then some banter/or game is shot & another round chambered with bolt up again, bit of chit chat/banter, forget a round has been pushed down the chamber...
A complacent "check" is done by sliding bolt back & forth without closing the bolt, inadvertantly leaving a live one in the chamber that is not realised until another round needs chambering--& this could be too late...

This scenario is a great example of the need to be muzzle aware--particularly if rifle changes hands after a complacent check & someone goes to collect the fur.

I always work the complete cycle of the bolt to ensure no round is left in the chamber...particularly spotlighting when its hard to glance down the chamber.
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
Stix
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3675
South Australia

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 6:43 pm

bigfellascott wrote:The Howa Bolt Disassembled.

Image

Image

Image


That’s awesome - thank you.
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Dec 2018, 6:49 pm

''EXACTLY '' Stix very important point and a game changer if two or three people are using that rifle at different times :thumbsup:
If an unbeknowing person closes the bolt that rifle becomes lethal :thumbsdown: :problem:
Member-Deleted
 

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by TassieTiger » 14 Dec 2018, 6:51 pm

Stix wrote:
For those unaware Its worth noting that many rifles the extractor only picks the round up when the bolt is fully closed/on the down stroke if you get me....

Ive been in the scenario where game is seen & a round chambered but leave bolt up to be ready...
Game disappears then some banter/or game is shot & another round chambered with bolt up again, bit of chit chat/banter, forget a round has been pushed down the chamber...
A complacent "check" is done by sliding bolt back & forth without closing the bolt, inadvertantly leaving a live one in the chamber that is not realised until another round needs chambering--& this could be too late...

This scenario is a great example of the need to be muzzle aware--particularly if rifle changes hands after a complacent check & someone goes to collect the fur.

I always work the complete cycle of the bolt to ensure no round is left in the chamber...particularly spotlighting when its hard to glance down the chamber.


I ve been in this exact scenario recently and without fully understanding what you have described above - I put it down to dumb operator error...when I finally realised wtf was going on. In my case I loaded 4 into a mag instead of 3 - fired 3 and then chambered no 4 inadvertently - then Started chatting about the grouping and writing shot details down and then decided to pull bolt to let air flow. Only bolt came out without the bullet...and because I’d been loading 3’s all day - completely forgot about one in the chamber. Scary how easy that was to happen...we were never in any danger but was an eye opener...
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 6:53 pm

sungazer wrote:A Barnard firing pin protrusion length sorry it is off topic For example we have always used .050” to .055” protrusion length for the firing pin tip, some of our dealers have always preferred .060” protrusion.

I dont have the pictures but on most firearms the cock on opening. You will see a litlle part of the back of the firing pin sitting it a slight indent at the top of a ramp. When you close the bolt it moves the small bit of the back of the firing pin from the bolt stopping it to the sear of the gun that holds it in the same position backward. as you close the bolt you are moving the back of the firing pin back across that ramp which helped move it back against a spring to hopefully the fully closed bold position which will give that firing pin clear access to move forward when released.

If the bolt was only closed half way the back of the firing pin may be in line with half way along that ramp but still held back by the trigger sear somewhat. If the trigger was pulled in this state the firing pin would move forward it may move enough to hit the primer the locking lugs may not be full engaged. Its impossible to come up with all the outcomes but a lot of them are not good.


I did a little test before with the Howa, I put the bolt in the half cocked position and squeezed the trigger and nothing, I then closed the bolt and the rifle wasn't cocked at all, to cock it I had to lift the bolt handle and close it again to cock it, I reckon if I did the same procedure and instead of squeezing the trigger in the half cocked position just put it in the half cocked position then in the full cock position it would then be fully cocked.

Interesting topic, It's good to test these scenarios out. :drinks:
User avatar
bigfellascott
Lieutenant General
Lieutenant General
 
Posts: 5289
-

PreviousNext

Back to top
 
Return to Hunting - Game hunting and large prey