Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need it

Game hunting and large prey. Deer stalking, hunting with hounds. Boar, pigs etc., large prey, culling, hunting large feral animals.

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 12 Dec 2018, 10:06 pm

sungazer wrote:I have seen first hand an accident at the range of a guy that pulled the trigger on a partly closed bolt. The small part of the lug that was doing the locking sheared and the bolt shot back into his head. He is still alive and has the gruesome pictures as a reminder to us all. He has very little sight if any left in the right eye.

The bolt is cocked and ready to fire as soon as you open it from the last round be warned and very careful.


We had a guy had a round detonate in the open breach of a 1911 while he was clearing it. He had his hand over the ejection port to catch the round. Got pretty chewed up with case shrapnel but I don't think he had any permanent injuries.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Urastus » 12 Dec 2018, 10:23 pm

I'm pretty much an unpaid shill for them around here for deer stalking in the hills, rifles always at the ready with muzzle pointed safe and because its suspended around your neck you dont have to grip the pistol grip, you can lean/rest you hand and your finger is instinctively away from the trigger.
I climb some steep and rocky terrain and having the rifle secured is piece of mind, slips and trips do happen.


Thanks bigjoboss - it's good to get a recommendation :) It does look like a good idea on the video, but nothing beats first hand knowledge.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 12 Dec 2018, 10:26 pm

Hmmm...

Good info here...!!

So with say a Tikka T3--part close the bolt to the 'notch' & the bolt sits there...squeeze the trigger & the bolt wants to close--or if i didnt have my finger under the bolt stopping it, the bolt would slam down closed...

So ive always wondered what what would happen if a live round were in the chamber & the above scenario took place...

So there's the stupid question...if the above happened--is it likely to go "pop"...?

(Call me gutless...but Ive never been game to try it...hehe)
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 12 Dec 2018, 10:34 pm

Stix wrote:Hmmm...

Good info here...!!

So with say a Tikka T3--part close the bolt to the 'notch' & the bolt sits there...squeeze the trigger & the bolt wants to close--or if i didnt have my finger under the bolt stopping it, the bolt would slam down closed...

So ive always wondered what what would happen if a live round were in the chamber & the above scenario took place...

So there's the stupid question...if the above happened--is it likely to go "pop"...?

(Call me gutless...but Ive never been game to try it...hehe)


There are a lot of actions like this, and most likely it won't fire, but I really wouldn't risk it.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Dec 2018, 12:09 am

Stix wrote:Hmmm...

Good info here...!!

So with say a Tikka T3--part close the bolt to the 'notch' & the bolt sits there...squeeze the trigger & the bolt wants to close--or if i didnt have my finger under the bolt stopping it, the bolt would slam down closed...

So ive always wondered what what would happen if a live round were in the chamber & the above scenario took place...

So there's the stupid question...if the above happened--is it likely to go "pop"...?

(Call me gutless...but Ive never been game to try it...hehe)


Try it without a round chambered :unknown:
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Bigjobss » 13 Dec 2018, 5:21 am

Thats how I store my bolt actions, squeeze trigger then lower bolt, that way I dont have to dry fire which is more important for rimfires but I still dont like it.

Ive done it with a few .22s on live rounds with no discharge, but never with aything with serious recoil.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by sungazer » 13 Dec 2018, 7:29 am

The bolt is cocked back. However part of the mechanism needs to be rotated out of normally a small indent which the rotation or part rotation moves it out of. Others work differently. At full bore clubs before any shooting is done what is called a rapid bolt cycle is done to test the sear and make sure it does not go off with just the closing of the bolt and a bump.
Just last week I witnessed this happen with a small bore 22 rifle which was being fed from a magazine. It was a new purchase of the current owner as he closed the bolt bang straight away it went off. some other telling signs were that it was appearing not to be cocked when the bolt was being closed. What was happening is exactly what has been described as holding the trigger and closing the bolt. This only works on some actions only try it with a empty gun.
The previous owner had adjusted the trigger to the point of being not only very dangerous but sometimes not working. Light triggers are not worth someones life. It could be your own that bullet or part there of could come straight back at you esp with 22
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 13 Dec 2018, 9:00 am

bigfellascott wrote:
Stix wrote:Hmmm...

Good info here...!!

So with say a Tikka T3--part close the bolt to the 'notch' & the bolt sits there...squeeze the trigger & the bolt wants to close--or if i didnt have my finger under the bolt stopping it, the bolt would slam down closed...

So ive always wondered what what would happen if a live round were in the chamber & the above scenario took place...

So there's the stupid question...if the above happened--is it likely to go "pop"...?

(Call me gutless...but Ive never been game to try it...hehe)


Try it without a round chambered :unknown:


:wtf:
Lol...that wont answer the question bigfella...

I wont be trying it with a live one... :thumbsup:
But i assume it wont fire...
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 13 Dec 2018, 9:11 am

Sorry sungazer didnt see your post...

& im not asking the question correctly...

Yes squeeze trigger to lower bolt uncocks it...do that with a live round no worries... :thumbsup:

Ill think better about how to ask it...
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 9:33 am

I have a couple steyr Mannlicher s andcthey bot have light - set triggers.

One was so light, I tried to adjust more pressure into it and ended up making it worse - to the point where even touching the rifle would set the trigger off. I put it back to where it was but yeah - wake up call to see how dangerous that feature could be...
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Dec 2018, 10:41 am

Bigjobss wrote:Thats how I store my bolt actions, squeeze trigger then lower bolt, that way I dont have to dry fire which is more important for rimfires but I still dont like it.

Ive done it with a few .22s on live rounds with no discharge, but never with aything with serious recoil.


I won't go bang as holding the trigger in whilst closing the bolt prevents it from cocking (on my rifles anyway yours/others might be different) then it was just a matter of lifting up the bolt handle and closing it down to cock it - I used to carry my rifles like this when hunting without any dramas ever but these days I just chamber a round when I see something I want to shoot. :drinks:
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 13 Dec 2018, 3:08 pm

Bigjobss wrote:Thats how I store my bolt actions, squeeze trigger then lower bolt, that way I dont have to dry fire which is more important for rimfires but I still dont like it.

Ive done it with a few .22s on live rounds with no discharge, but never with anything with serious recoil.


Yep, all my firearms are stored with "eased springs". The hammerless shotgun is annoying as I haven't found a way of dropping the hammers without pulling the trigger, so I leave two fired shells in it for that purpose.

I may have to try this "pulling the trigger on a partially-opened bolt" with primed brass and see what happens. Even if I get no detonations, I still wouldn't recommend doing it with a live round chambered.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 13 Dec 2018, 3:10 pm

sungazer wrote:At full bore clubs before any shooting is done what is called a rapid bolt cycle is done to test the sear and make sure it does not go off with just the closing of the bolt and a bump.


Another very important test is making sure the safety doesn't jump the sear allowing the striker to drop when disengaging the safety.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 13 Dec 2018, 3:13 pm

Stix wrote:Yes squeeze trigger to lower bolt uncocks it...do that with a live round no worries...


Do not do this with any firearm in which the striker or firing pin protrudes through the bolt face when it's uncocked. Especially with milsurps due to the very heavy striker springs pushing the striker hard against the primer. You have exactly the same situation as the original Colt Single-Action Army revolver with the firing pin resting against a live primer.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 13 Dec 2018, 3:14 pm

bigfellascott wrote:I won't go bang as holding the trigger in whilst closing the bolt prevents it from cocking (on my rifles anyway yours/others might be different) then it was just a matter of lifting up the bolt handle and closing it down to cock it - I used to carry my rifles like this when hunting without any dramas ever but these days I just chamber a round when I see something I want to shoot. :drinks:


This is fine with a floating or rebounding striker, but definitely not with a striker that protrudes through the bolt face when uncocked.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by marksman » 13 Dec 2018, 8:14 pm

sungazer wrote:
marksman wrote:
sungazer wrote:Closing the bolt only partly on any locking on opening firearm is VERY DANGEROUS . The reason being that the locking lugs are not fully engaged however the rifle may be able to operate. Quite often. There has been many people hit in the eye with a bolt and lost their sight in one eye if not worse due to this. With only a portion of the lugs closed to prevent the bolt flying back nearly as fast as the bullet they can either shear off or fully open. Dont do this.


I agree with this but it is taught in the vic firearm safety course, even has a picture of a young lady holding a Remington using this technique

dont be a dope like the dieckhead in the vid, be muzzle aware :thumbsup: :drinks:


I have seen first hand an accident at the range of a guy that pulled the trigger on a partly closed bolt. The small part of the lug that was doing the locking sheared and the bolt shot back into his head. He is still alive and has the gruesome pictures as a reminder to us all. He has very little sight if any left in the right eye.

The bolt is cocked and ready to fire as soon as you open it from the last round be warned and very careful.


I hope you realise I dont do this sungazer :lol:
I am only relating what I have seen and know what is being done and excepted by the firearms safety council Victoria as a safe practice
I have in the past sent them information regarding this practice because I own rifles I recon may set the round off if you accidentally pull the trigger because they have speedlock kits in them and they slam down very hard, a lot harder than the factory rifles do, with a protruding firing pin against the primer :crazy:

as I said earlier Quote
"it is not proven to be a safe practice for a cock on open action because if the firing pin was to fall some protrude up to 2mm and could set off a round that would be sitting in the bolt face"
this was in reference to some saying that they have a round chambered with the bolt open and consider it a safe practice :unknown:

this guy shot his mate because he pointed a firearm in the heat of the moment when trying to shoot a deer,
tell me how many of you will say they do not put a round in the chamber when walking up on the animal you intend to kill :unknown:
there is no need to reinvent the wheel it's already done, the guy fecked up really bad, period
always point the muzzle in a safe direction :drinks:
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by sungazer » 13 Dec 2018, 9:33 pm

I am not relating information to anyone in particular. Just trying to give an idea how the guns work and how dangerous they can be. That is the best rule keep it pointed in a safe direction. I will admit to walking with a gun loaded and on safe. Its not a safe practice. It is safer when you know it is loaded and aware it may go off than thinking all is safe only to find out it wasn't.

It was just so co incidental that I actually saw both a gun go off when the bolt was closed. luckily due to our practices it was pointed at a target. Then to also see the firing pin close as the bolt was shut. it was the classic case of a trigger adjusted wrongly. It was good to see an example of why we do the vigorous bolt close test before shooting for the day.

The other one with the bolt not fully closed and going through an eye. Also I have seen the pictures. When you open your bolt you are pushing the firing pin back. The turning the bolt down moves the part from the indent in the bolt that holds it back to the trigger sear. So you can see if it is half closed the firing pin is now half out of the indent. However the locking lugs are only partially closed as well. This is a percurious position a it may go off not fully locked its all up to tolerances and adjustments.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Dec 2018, 9:44 pm

Anyone care to explain how the 3 position safety works on Howas?
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 9:47 pm

Not being fully aware of all mechanical aspects of a trigger/bolt mechanism, would be great if a picture could accompany some of the above - especially when referring to certain makes eg Mauser positive feed systems and similar.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Dec 2018, 10:09 pm

Heres the Howa Hact Trigger - scroll down you will see pics of it :D

https://www.pulverdampf.com/viewtopic.php?t=23009
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 13 Dec 2018, 10:15 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Heres the Howa Hact Trigger - scroll down you will see pics of it :D

https://www.pulverdampf.com/viewtopic.php?t=23009


Need Bigrich to translate this for us...
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Dec 2018, 10:18 pm

Stix wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:Heres the Howa Hact Trigger - scroll down you will see pics of it :D

https://www.pulverdampf.com/viewtopic.php?t=23009


Need Bigrich to translate this for us...


I'd say he's just explaining how to pull the trigger apart and tune it going by what I can see. :unknown:
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 11:22 pm

bigfellascott wrote:Heres the Howa Hact Trigger - scroll down you will see pics of it :D

https://www.pulverdampf.com/viewtopic.php?t=23009


Geeeeeezus....I think I need a Weiner schnitzel to get me in the mood to try and work out wtf...not one word looked like “sear” sonim still confused lol
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
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Marlin SBL 45/70
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 14 Dec 2018, 12:14 am

TassieTiger wrote:
bigfellascott wrote:Heres the Howa Hact Trigger - scroll down you will see pics of it :D

https://www.pulverdampf.com/viewtopic.php?t=23009


Geeeeeezus....I think I need a Weiner schnitzel to get me in the mood to try and work out wtf...not one word looked like “sear” sonim still confused lol



Well Tassie...if you were closer i could help you out with that Weiner schnizel...

I was inconvenienced by a mate this evening & I havnt had dinner because i had to go & rescue some write-off veal...a good few kilo's of it... cos he doesnt have room in his fridge
. :D

Need some good veal recipe's now....
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Member-Deleted » 14 Dec 2018, 1:27 am

Hey Stix , what sort of crivac machine do you use mate they look nice bags thick and neat
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by marksman » 14 Dec 2018, 7:33 am

TassieTiger wrote:Not being fully aware of all mechanical aspects of a trigger/bolt mechanism, would be great if a picture could accompany some of the above - especially when referring to certain makes eg Mauser positive feed systems and similar.



cocked bolt
Image

uncocked bolt
Image

this bolt has the firing pin set at the recommended 2mm
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 8:12 am

Whats the bolt out of?
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 8:14 am

You know what we need, we need the Myth Busters to do an experiment to see just how true or false this whole thing is. :D
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 14 Dec 2018, 8:56 am

This is the Howa bolt

Image

Image

I also decocked the bolt and the firing pin protrudes about 2mm or so but I can't see how it will set off a primer because it is resting against it, it really would need force ie being cocked and under spring-loaded tension to set it off as far as I can figure out.

As I've said I've carried my rifles plenty of times with one up the spout and decocked and never an issue and I just can't figure out how it would set it off without some sort of force (spring loaded tension on the pin) to make the primer detonate, I pushed on the back of the firing pin with a screwdriver and there is no movement whatsoever so it can't strike the primer as such, not sure about other firearm setups but I think this one is ok certainly has been all these years :unknown:
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 14 Dec 2018, 9:10 am

Hey Stix , what sort of crivac machine do you use mate they look nice bags thick and neat


I didnt pack that ...thats how it came, packed at slaughter house i guess.
Yes the bags look & feel good-id like ine of those machines... :thumbsup:

I have the waeco vaccuum machine...it was pricy but was the only one at the time i could find worked on 12v as well....
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