Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need it

Game hunting and large prey. Deer stalking, hunting with hounds. Boar, pigs etc., large prey, culling, hunting large feral animals.

Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by marksman » 11 Dec 2018, 6:11 pm

Archie wrote:I carry a round in the chamber with the bolt home but handle up, and the bold handle held up by a doubled, thick rubber band that in turn is looped round the scope.

Thoughts?


this is a method the deer stalkers use effectively for very quick shots at close game
another with mauser 98 style actions is to close the bolt and push it down 1 click, the bolt sits in the upward position

in the vic firearms safety test they teach the half open bolt technique where you close the bolt on a round then open the bolt and bring it back at little
when you want to take a shot close the bolt but if the shot is not possible open it again and proceed stalking
this technique is made for rear locking actions because they are cock on close eg... smle, mauser 96, remmington 788 ect
it is not proven to be a safe practice for a cock on open action because if the firing pin was to fall some protrude up to 2mm and could set off a round that would be sitting in the bolt face

IMHO I think the people who have developed the firearms have looked at all safety aspects of there firearm that could make them culpable :unknown:

unless you are using a Remington rifle of course :lol:
www.cnbc.com/remington-under-fire/
which is why I think this all started :lol:
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 11 Dec 2018, 6:21 pm

Stix wrote:Its just that freak accident from a brief moment of complacency we all need to avoid...

Ive had one with a circ saw & that was messy & traumatic enough, so i dont ever want one with a gun...
:drinks:


You too!
I run a 9-1/4" Makita through my right wrist in 1990 :-)
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Archie » 11 Dec 2018, 7:12 pm

Stix you’re right mate, falling on the rifle was a bad example - body weight will either close that bolt or not, depending on the way you and it land - rubber band won’t make a difference. If you drop the rifle, it bangs against a tree or you just aren’t paying enough attention, the rubber band gets you a margin of safety. Far from foolproof though. I am a bit paranoid when it comes to NDs and I still hunt very, very slowly in that terrain so I’m normally hyper aware of it but clearly it doesn’t come without risks. I definitely don’t have a round in the chamber until I’m at the “think about where every step goes and how you place your foot” phase of the hunt.

And also, yes I was taught it by a Victorian. Who knew there was something to learn from the Mexicans other than turning right from the left hand lane :D
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Blr243 » 11 Dec 2018, 9:00 pm

Ok. Sounds like I’m not the only dummy to have an incident with a circular saw. Those teeth don’t exactly leave a nice clean cut I don’t feel like the flesh was cut away from the end of my finger. I felt like the flesh was ripped off me. Quite embarrassing really
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Bent Arrow » 11 Dec 2018, 9:39 pm

Urastus wrote:Well here's a doozy :) Those leather toe guards for trap shooters. You thread it through your laces - it's suppose to protect your boot when you rest the end of the barrel on it :D Sure, I imagine they all have their actions broken, of course.


I've just started busting clays. From what I've seen so far, I reckon you'd get get pounced on "like a cat on a mouse" if you had the action closed and the muzzle on your foot. Gun is rested on your foot when your waiting for your turn. It's OK to put a shell in the chamber whilst the muzzle is on your foot, but the gun is lifted and the action only closed with the barrel up, already pointing down range
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 11 Dec 2018, 10:20 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Stix wrote:Its just that freak accident from a brief moment of complacency we all need to avoid...

Ive had one with a circ saw & that was messy & traumatic enough, so i dont ever want one with a gun...
:drinks:


You too!
I run a 9-1/4" Makita through my right wrist in 1990 :-)


Yup...sigh...
I wont go into mine in detail...wasnt & still isnt pretty...!!
I was unlucky, but lucky at the ssme time--i had swipes of the blade over the underside of wrist...so close to cutting through everything on the important side...

Blr243 wrote:Ok. Sounds like I’m not the only dummy to have an incident with a circular saw. Those teeth don’t exactly leave a nice clean cut I don’t feel like the flesh was cut away from the end of my finger. I felt like the flesh was ripped off me. Quite embarrassing really


Yes BLR...a standard cross-cut saw blade has 2 cutting styles...a clean chip & tear out across timber grain...
Or a rip to fuk effect on flesh & bones...much like i imagine the strength of an angry gorilla with jaws of a great white for hands...& it all seems to happen in the time it takes for a bullet to leave the muzzle...once its kicked back its already too late to stop it... :roll:

& no need to be embarrased mate!!...anyone gives you lip just tell em 'you should see what my finger did to the lhe eye of the last guy that said that to me"... :lol:
:drinks:
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 11 Dec 2018, 10:46 pm

Good on you Archie... :thumbsup:

You know what you're doing & probably better than me by the sounds of it... :thumbsup:
Id never have guessed that technique is common for deer hunters... :o
Thats a couple of things ive learnt on one page here...!!

I just commented as you asked for thoughts...

Archie wrote:Who knew there was something to learn from the Mexicans other than turning right from the left hand lane :D


Thats gold...:lol: :lol: :lol: ...gees i dam near had to be certified the first time i had to turn right over there on one of those intersections...definately a nappy filler experience...!!

There's a couple mexicans on this page that aren't too bad when it comes to learning stuff from... :thumbsup:
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by sungazer » 12 Dec 2018, 7:48 am

Closing the bolt only partly on any locking on opening firearm is VERY DANGEROUS . The reason being that the locking lugs are not fully engaged however the rifle may be able to operate. Quite often. There has been many people hit in the eye with a bolt and lost their sight in one eye if not worse due to this. With only a portion of the lugs closed to prevent the bolt flying back nearly as fast as the bullet they can either shear off or fully open. Dont do this.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Member-Deleted » 12 Dec 2018, 8:00 am

Just ask yourselves if you had shot yourself or someone else due to a bullet being carried or placed in the chamber
If you or they survived I pretty much think the answer would be '' Probably shouldn't have had a bullet in the chamber and I won't be doing that again''
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Bent Arrow » 12 Dec 2018, 8:12 am

Just ask yourselves if you had shot yourself or someone else due to a bullet being carried or placed in the chamber
If you or they survived I pretty much think the answer would be '' Probably shouldn't have had a bullet in the chamber and I won't be doing that again''


This. I hunt either with my son, or one of two very close mates that also have young children. I can't imagine the horror of dealing with the consequences. No round in the chamber until it's time to shoot, full stop, end of story.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Urastus » 12 Dec 2018, 8:32 am

marksman wrote:
this is a method the deer stalkers use effectively for very quick shots at close game
another with mauser 98 style actions is to close the bolt and push it down 1 click, the bolt sits in the upward position

in the vic firearms safety test they teach the half open bolt technique where you close the bolt on a round then open the bolt and bring it back at little
when you want to take a shot close the bolt but if the shot is not possible open it again and proceed stalking
this technique is made for rear locking actions because they are cock on close eg... smle, mauser 96, remmington 788 ect
it is not proven to be a safe practice for a cock on open action because if the firing pin was to fall some protrude up to 2mm and could set off a round that would be sitting in the bolt face

IMHO I think the people who have developed the firearms have looked at all safety aspects of there firearm that could make them culpable :unknown:

unless you are using a Remington rifle of course :lol:
http://www.cnbc.com/remington-under-fire/
which is why I think this all started :lol:


Wow, never knew that about remington. That was kind of my concern with having the bolt open and the action exposed - debris getting inside. And it would.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Bigjobss » 12 Dec 2018, 9:06 am

sungazer wrote:Closing the bolt only partly on any locking on opening firearm is VERY DANGEROUS . The reason being that the locking lugs are not fully engaged however the rifle may be able to operate. Quite often. There has been many people hit in the eye with a bolt and lost their sight in one eye if not worse due to this. With only a portion of the lugs closed to prevent the bolt flying back nearly as fast as the bullet they can either shear off or fully open. Dont do this.


Thats what I was thinking, lifting up the bolt you feel resistance in the initial action indicating cocking of the firing pin. So walking around "half cocked" with the bolt up means there is still possibility that the pin could engage with the cartrdige on a partically closed chamber.

I would rather walk around with a loaded firearm and the safety on in that case. In either scenario a mechanical failure or sudden impact could cause an ND, and I would rather have the energy escaping from the barrel end only.

Whilst hunting with others I would never have a round chambered, under certain circumstances hunting deer on my own I would use the safety, I use a safiri sling which secrures the firearm and muzzel direction, I will also never navigate overly difficult terrain loaded, even though the sling does mean i can use both hands free of the firearm and it cannot be dropped whilst the muzzel still points away from me.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 12 Dec 2018, 2:10 pm

Stix wrote:
bladeracer wrote:You too!
I run a 9-1/4" Makita through my right wrist in 1990 :-)


Yup...sigh...
I wont go into mine in detail...wasnt & still isnt pretty...!!
I was unlucky, but lucky at the ssme time--i had swipes of the blade over the underside of wrist...so close to cutting through everything on the important side...


I cut through all the wrist bones, tendons, arteries and nerves, with the blade stopping close to coming through the flexor tendons on the underside of the wrist. All my retractor tendons to fingers and thumb were severed except for the little finger. The thumb retractor failed so they did consider rerouting the little finger over to operate my thumb, I decided against it as it was the only tendon I hadn't cut and I still didn't know if I'd be able to use my fingers. The thumb bones were so damaged that my thumb has very restricted movement anyway so the tendon wouldn't have helped in my opinion. I can move my thumb downwards with a small degree of strength, but I can't lift it upwards, or rotate it at all. I have reasonable, but not great, grip strength in the fingers, which has been far more useful than if I had retained the thumb and damaged my fingers more. As with many disabilities, it appears to cause more problems than it actually does - my life does not revolve around my right hand. There are no sensory nerves to the back of my hand from the wrist to the second knuckles, so I can bang it without noticing at the time, and then get intense pain sometime after, especially if I bang my thumb. I gave up writing in 1990 and have never been able to learn to do so left-handed. The lunate bone in the wrist died around 2005 which causes stiffness but has actually reduced the level of pain.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 12 Dec 2018, 2:17 pm

Just ask yourselves if you had shot yourself or someone else due to a bullet being carried or placed in the chamber
If you or they survived I pretty much think the answer would be '' Probably shouldn't have had a bullet in the chamber and I won't be doing that again''


When I was seventeen I had my one and only ND. Walking home late one evening after all day walking and hunting, very tired. Just one last fence to cross, and it was damaged at that point so just a matter of stepping over the tangled wires. I crossed the fence here several times every day, dead easy. The fence ran along the crest of the hill which was full of rabbit burrows, and the rabbits would sit on top of the hill, so it was always worth sneaking up for a look. Had a round chambered in my 10/22 and must've had the safety off - probably why I don't use safeties - or knocked it off inadvertantly (they have a cross-button safety in the front of the trigger guard). In the fading light I got a foot caught in the wire, stumbled just a little, and fired a round into the ground in front of me. A very important, and never forgotten, lesson was learned that day!
Last edited by bladeracer on 12 Dec 2018, 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by marksman » 12 Dec 2018, 4:54 pm

sungazer wrote:Closing the bolt only partly on any locking on opening firearm is VERY DANGEROUS . The reason being that the locking lugs are not fully engaged however the rifle may be able to operate. Quite often. There has been many people hit in the eye with a bolt and lost their sight in one eye if not worse due to this. With only a portion of the lugs closed to prevent the bolt flying back nearly as fast as the bullet they can either shear off or fully open. Dont do this.


I agree with this but it is taught in the vic firearm safety course, even has a picture of a young lady holding a Remington using this technique

dont be a dope like the dieckhead in the vid, be muzzle aware :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Urastus » 12 Dec 2018, 6:42 pm

Bigjobss wrote:I use a safiri sling which secrures the firearm and muzzel direction, I will also never navigate overly difficult terrain loaded, even though the sling does mean i can use both hands free of the firearm and it cannot be dropped whilst the muzzel still points away from me.


this is why I like forums - that sling is a good idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGwn6Kfno7o
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by sungazer » 12 Dec 2018, 8:18 pm

marksman wrote:
sungazer wrote:Closing the bolt only partly on any locking on opening firearm is VERY DANGEROUS . The reason being that the locking lugs are not fully engaged however the rifle may be able to operate. Quite often. There has been many people hit in the eye with a bolt and lost their sight in one eye if not worse due to this. With only a portion of the lugs closed to prevent the bolt flying back nearly as fast as the bullet they can either shear off or fully open. Dont do this.


I agree with this but it is taught in the vic firearm safety course, even has a picture of a young lady holding a Remington using this technique

dont be a dope like the dieckhead in the vid, be muzzle aware :thumbsup: :drinks:


I have seen first hand an accident at the range of a guy that pulled the trigger on a partly closed bolt. The small part of the lug that was doing the locking sheared and the bolt shot back into his head. He is still alive and has the gruesome pictures as a reminder to us all. He has very little sight if any left in the right eye.

The bolt is cocked and ready to fire as soon as you open it from the last round be warned and very careful.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Bigjobss » 12 Dec 2018, 8:18 pm

Urastus wrote:
Bigjobss wrote:I use a safiri sling which secrures the firearm and muzzel direction, I will also never navigate overly difficult terrain loaded, even though the sling does mean i can use both hands free of the firearm and it cannot be dropped whilst the muzzel still points away from me.


this is why I like forums - that sling is a good idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGwn6Kfno7o


I'm pretty much an unpaid shill for them around here for deer stalking in the hills, rifles always at the ready with muzzle pointed safe and because its suspended around your neck you dont have to grip the pistol grip, you can lean/rest you hand and your finger is instinctively away from the trigger.
I climb some steep and rocky terrain and having the rifle secured is piece of mind, slips and trips do happen.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 12 Dec 2018, 10:06 pm

sungazer wrote:I have seen first hand an accident at the range of a guy that pulled the trigger on a partly closed bolt. The small part of the lug that was doing the locking sheared and the bolt shot back into his head. He is still alive and has the gruesome pictures as a reminder to us all. He has very little sight if any left in the right eye.

The bolt is cocked and ready to fire as soon as you open it from the last round be warned and very careful.


We had a guy had a round detonate in the open breach of a 1911 while he was clearing it. He had his hand over the ejection port to catch the round. Got pretty chewed up with case shrapnel but I don't think he had any permanent injuries.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Urastus » 12 Dec 2018, 10:23 pm

I'm pretty much an unpaid shill for them around here for deer stalking in the hills, rifles always at the ready with muzzle pointed safe and because its suspended around your neck you dont have to grip the pistol grip, you can lean/rest you hand and your finger is instinctively away from the trigger.
I climb some steep and rocky terrain and having the rifle secured is piece of mind, slips and trips do happen.


Thanks bigjoboss - it's good to get a recommendation :) It does look like a good idea on the video, but nothing beats first hand knowledge.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 12 Dec 2018, 10:26 pm

Hmmm...

Good info here...!!

So with say a Tikka T3--part close the bolt to the 'notch' & the bolt sits there...squeeze the trigger & the bolt wants to close--or if i didnt have my finger under the bolt stopping it, the bolt would slam down closed...

So ive always wondered what what would happen if a live round were in the chamber & the above scenario took place...

So there's the stupid question...if the above happened--is it likely to go "pop"...?

(Call me gutless...but Ive never been game to try it...hehe)
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 12 Dec 2018, 10:34 pm

Stix wrote:Hmmm...

Good info here...!!

So with say a Tikka T3--part close the bolt to the 'notch' & the bolt sits there...squeeze the trigger & the bolt wants to close--or if i didnt have my finger under the bolt stopping it, the bolt would slam down closed...

So ive always wondered what what would happen if a live round were in the chamber & the above scenario took place...

So there's the stupid question...if the above happened--is it likely to go "pop"...?

(Call me gutless...but Ive never been game to try it...hehe)


There are a lot of actions like this, and most likely it won't fire, but I really wouldn't risk it.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Dec 2018, 12:09 am

Stix wrote:Hmmm...

Good info here...!!

So with say a Tikka T3--part close the bolt to the 'notch' & the bolt sits there...squeeze the trigger & the bolt wants to close--or if i didnt have my finger under the bolt stopping it, the bolt would slam down closed...

So ive always wondered what what would happen if a live round were in the chamber & the above scenario took place...

So there's the stupid question...if the above happened--is it likely to go "pop"...?

(Call me gutless...but Ive never been game to try it...hehe)


Try it without a round chambered :unknown:
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Bigjobss » 13 Dec 2018, 5:21 am

Thats how I store my bolt actions, squeeze trigger then lower bolt, that way I dont have to dry fire which is more important for rimfires but I still dont like it.

Ive done it with a few .22s on live rounds with no discharge, but never with aything with serious recoil.
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by sungazer » 13 Dec 2018, 7:29 am

The bolt is cocked back. However part of the mechanism needs to be rotated out of normally a small indent which the rotation or part rotation moves it out of. Others work differently. At full bore clubs before any shooting is done what is called a rapid bolt cycle is done to test the sear and make sure it does not go off with just the closing of the bolt and a bump.
Just last week I witnessed this happen with a small bore 22 rifle which was being fed from a magazine. It was a new purchase of the current owner as he closed the bolt bang straight away it went off. some other telling signs were that it was appearing not to be cocked when the bolt was being closed. What was happening is exactly what has been described as holding the trigger and closing the bolt. This only works on some actions only try it with a empty gun.
The previous owner had adjusted the trigger to the point of being not only very dangerous but sometimes not working. Light triggers are not worth someones life. It could be your own that bullet or part there of could come straight back at you esp with 22
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 13 Dec 2018, 9:00 am

bigfellascott wrote:
Stix wrote:Hmmm...

Good info here...!!

So with say a Tikka T3--part close the bolt to the 'notch' & the bolt sits there...squeeze the trigger & the bolt wants to close--or if i didnt have my finger under the bolt stopping it, the bolt would slam down closed...

So ive always wondered what what would happen if a live round were in the chamber & the above scenario took place...

So there's the stupid question...if the above happened--is it likely to go "pop"...?

(Call me gutless...but Ive never been game to try it...hehe)


Try it without a round chambered :unknown:


:wtf:
Lol...that wont answer the question bigfella...

I wont be trying it with a live one... :thumbsup:
But i assume it wont fire...
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by Stix » 13 Dec 2018, 9:11 am

Sorry sungazer didnt see your post...

& im not asking the question correctly...

Yes squeeze trigger to lower bolt uncocks it...do that with a live round no worries... :thumbsup:

Ill think better about how to ask it...
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by TassieTiger » 13 Dec 2018, 9:33 am

I have a couple steyr Mannlicher s andcthey bot have light - set triggers.

One was so light, I tried to adjust more pressure into it and ended up making it worse - to the point where even touching the rifle would set the trigger off. I put it back to where it was but yeah - wake up call to see how dangerous that feature could be...
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bigfellascott » 13 Dec 2018, 10:41 am

Bigjobss wrote:Thats how I store my bolt actions, squeeze trigger then lower bolt, that way I dont have to dry fire which is more important for rimfires but I still dont like it.

Ive done it with a few .22s on live rounds with no discharge, but never with aything with serious recoil.


I won't go bang as holding the trigger in whilst closing the bolt prevents it from cocking (on my rifles anyway yours/others might be different) then it was just a matter of lifting up the bolt handle and closing it down to cock it - I used to carry my rifles like this when hunting without any dramas ever but these days I just chamber a round when I see something I want to shoot. :drinks:
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Re: Why you never have a round in the chamber until you need

Post by bladeracer » 13 Dec 2018, 3:08 pm

Bigjobss wrote:Thats how I store my bolt actions, squeeze trigger then lower bolt, that way I dont have to dry fire which is more important for rimfires but I still dont like it.

Ive done it with a few .22s on live rounds with no discharge, but never with anything with serious recoil.


Yep, all my firearms are stored with "eased springs". The hammerless shotgun is annoying as I haven't found a way of dropping the hammers without pulling the trigger, so I leave two fired shells in it for that purpose.

I may have to try this "pulling the trigger on a partially-opened bolt" with primed brass and see what happens. Even if I get no detonations, I still wouldn't recommend doing it with a live round chambered.
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