Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Game hunting and large prey. Deer stalking, hunting with hounds. Boar, pigs etc., large prey, culling, hunting large feral animals.

Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Blr243 » 22 Apr 2020, 10:44 am

Many times in the bush in thick scrub I have had to hesitate and take time to correctly identify my target. Sometimes a pig at a funny angle or stationary can not obviously be accurately identified as a pig .... every single time I have hesitated and eventually safely identified a pig I have shot it ... but what if I did not hesitate, especially in an area already super thick with pigs and I can hear them squealing and fighting and rustling in the bush? It could be another hunter lost from another property sitting down having a rest ... so I googled it and sure enough in America somebody with a thermal scope has already shot another hunter crawling along the ground ... so as more of this stuff is in use people really need to lift their game in a very big way. It scares me to think there may be another hunter in my paddock with a thermal scope And it scares me to think of more than one hunter , together , at night both with thermal scopes and with no peripheral vision wher pigs start running from left to right
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Apr 2020, 11:55 am

Your right BLR - our heat signature is not different To large animals and it scares the crap out of me as well.
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Grandadbushy » 22 Apr 2020, 12:32 pm

A very valid point BLR but with Thermal or not , day or night it is absolutely a must to identify your target, accidents have happened in daylight because some one has jumped the gun and not identified their target properly resulting in another hunter being shot
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Apr 2020, 12:34 pm

I think a thermal is a little different in that at night - you really can not guarantee your target. Your shooting at a heat sign not a fully identifiable target.
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Blr243 » 22 Apr 2020, 1:05 pm

A long way away a pig in thermal is a rectangular blob but up close I see balls, pizzle ears snout and the little turn up on the end of the snout. Eyes glow whiter than the body because they give out more heat from the eyes , same as insides of ears , I see some hairs , tail etc If I see a big really solid blocky boar with a lot of hair on it up close on high magnification it can look like a bull but really only if I’m tired from hunting all night .... a couple of times in the middle of the night I have laid down in the dirt of the paddock for a fifteen min snooze. That’s when I feel most vulnerable from another spotlighter that might turn up and think I’m a pig. I should really wrap myself in a couple of rolls of reflective tape for those little naps




P
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Blr243 » 22 Apr 2020, 1:15 pm

Slack out of focus ID vs proper ID
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Blr243 » 22 Apr 2020, 1:16 pm

Out of focus
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Blr243 » 22 Apr 2020, 1:21 pm

When we think of reflections in a dam during the day we think of light when we see our own reflection but the drinking pig shows it’s thermal reflection so what’s going on there ? Something I wonder about occasionally
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by knowsnothin » 22 Apr 2020, 1:59 pm

I’d be happy to plug the bastard in the out of focus pic
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Apr 2020, 2:56 pm

It’s the distance thermal shooting that worries me...or as you say BLR, when your hunkered down, resting against a tree - could be a deer, or ? And to be fair - I don’t fret from experienced hunters, but we all know there are rabbits out there who would see a signature at some insane distance and pull the trigger...
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Blr243 » 22 Apr 2020, 3:14 pm

Exactly Tass. I remember having to do a safety course for my gun licence but ( just thinking out loud here). Perhaps there should be some sort of practical field test too to learn gun safety either solo or in a group scenario ) the police do it the army do it thoughoghly , I did theory and practice when I got my boat licence ( they took us out and we steered around in the river and ocean too ) When I did my motorcycle licence it involved a lot of theory and perhaps one hour of on road riding under supervision I did it through Honda. Morgan and whacker in bris also do intensive motorcycle training practical over several days. Mostly people are introduced to hunting via parents or friends so there is some opportunity for care and teaching but hunters starting out solo have no mentors or guidance I’m an average marksman but years of bowhunting have taught me to be a good stalker so 95 per cent of my shots are under 50 m so ID. is perfect and I can’t miss. But there are people out there highly skilled with great rifles who can shoot the head of a rabbit at 300 m. So it’s that sort of competency is the sort I’m scared of in the bush unless it’s coupled with a lot of common sense ........once the trigger is touched you can’t stop the bullet. It’s not like a dog you can’t just call it back
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by sungazer » 22 Apr 2020, 3:48 pm

I think the biggest danger with any device thermal or night vision is not so much the target but what if you miss. The most important thing something I always think about before taking a shot is where the bullet may go if I miss. Ideally I try to take shots on an angle or with appropriate terrain that if I miss the impact should be withing a meter or so of the intended target. Having a backstop is really critical and if not a backstop then the horizon really needs to be clear as far as the eye can see.

I wont take a shot at a animal if I am at the bottom of the hill and it is at the top. If I miss the bullet will travel how far? It will land somewhere and that must not be near any people, houses or even roads.
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Apr 2020, 4:34 pm

So with that in mind SG - you couldn’t really hunt at night with a thermal ?
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by sungazer » 22 Apr 2020, 6:04 pm

Certainly only on terrain I know well, and how far and where the bullet might end up if I miss. Its ok if it is a medium slope uphill and the target animals are half way up better still if your on the other side of the gully.
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Blr243 » 22 Apr 2020, 6:15 pm

That’s why I like v max at 243 velocity , blows up inside 90 per cent of pigs and little if anything is coming out the other side to carry on and cause damage .....a Barnes X from a 308 is still going to be destructive after it has exited a pigs body .....that’s my theory anyway ....hunting big cropping land with no stock is another thing I love about my favourite place ..... I have always been uncomfortable with roo shooters shooting at up to two hundred metres at a 70 mm target with unseen stock in the shadows I think it’s a recipe for disaster ........ but I must admit I have seen two roo shooters that have blown me away with their repeatable accuracy at long ranges
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Apr 2020, 6:23 pm

sungazer wrote:Certainly only on terrain I know well, and how far and where the bullet might end up if I miss. Its ok if it is a medium slope uphill and the target animals are half way up better still if your on the other side of the gully.


Fair enough, but you couldn’t really identify sloping rocks or other ricochet potentials. It does open a bit of a can of worms - because I like you, think a lot about the potentials of a deflection and I’ve not taken many hunting shots in the day time because of quarry position, but at night with a thermal, when you can’t see anything but your quarry...maybe a few other regular users of thermals will chime in as they have been a very rare indulgence for me...
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Grandadbushy » 22 Apr 2020, 6:55 pm

Whilst the threat is there of accidently harming another hunter with thermal, this is why we should be forever alert while shooting with thermal ,practice makes perfect or close to it . God forbid if there was an accident I wouldn't want it on my mind but worrying about the ''could be's and the maybe's '' won't prevent something happening only being heavily aware or the dangers it produces ''may'' and then being a new shooter ,I really don't thing I would be using thermal without shooting experience but with more experienced shooters I doubt there would be a problem but then again that's a personal choice
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Blr243 » 22 Apr 2020, 7:12 pm

I have some pics and vids of shooting thermal amongst stock ( but not with stock behind ). Only stock to the left and right and I’m up so close the pigs are 15 m from me ...... and I love the way stock in the shadows 400 metres behind my pigs shows up like dogs balls in thermal ..... if I was spotlighting with a conventional scope , brown and black cattle are hard to see in long grass at longer distances if I don’t catch any eye shine ......to be honest I’m glad those days are behind me .......cattle have a massive heat signature under a decent thermal scope .... my best two hunting blocks have no stock at all , but I still have to be carefull of the neighbours cattle , and I’m allowed on one of the cattle blocks. Actually it’s because of the cattle that I shot my biggest ever boar , the owner drops hay for the cattle and every night the mobs of pigs come in to steal it , so I visit and do well out of it. Stacks of foxes hanging round the cattle as well. Not sure why
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Blr243 » 22 Apr 2020, 7:25 pm

I actually feel it’s heaps easier to shoot safely with thermal because I see stock and other animals behind my target during a stalk and I see it long before I’m ready to ease the safety off. Originally thermal binos and scope were purchased to give me an advantage and to open up my night hunting but I’m now aware of the safety advantage I have. If you think of a bloke with hunting dogs and he has trackers on his dogs so that no dog can ever be lost and left behind to kill stock .... then along comes another bloke asking to hunt the same place and he does not have trackers on his dogs ... I’m heaps more aware of any stock in my general area than I was prior to having this gear ........but there’s no way I would ever suggest to somebody they are not safe with out it .......as long as everybody is sober, extremely aware of their surroundings and useing common sense all will be fine. .it will be good to hunt again , doing it instead of raving about it.
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Grandadbushy » 22 Apr 2020, 7:28 pm

Yeah BLR mate i'm not sure how your situation with the fox's but up here the wild dogs sometimes follow the breeders that have calves ,not only to get the odd calf but to eat the droppings of the calf , when the calf drinks the milk it eventually passes through and drops to the ground , this poo still has a fair content of by products from the milk making it rich in nutrients so the dogs and I presume fox's eat this in their diet. I've seen this many times where wild dogs will come up to the calf pens and eat what has fell through the rails also where cattle camp with their calves so this maybe what's happening where you are but I don't know the situation of yours
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Grandadbushy » 22 Apr 2020, 7:46 pm

If or when the price of thermal drops some, more shooters will be using them , I myself think they're magic and would like a couple one for each rifle
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Blr243 » 22 Apr 2020, 8:30 pm

GDB .i know on the Farm I have seen sty pigs eat the chook droppings and vice Versa but not heard about the dogs/ calve droppings u just mentioned.... I think if you could transfer all your bush and dingo hunting knowledge onto a USB drive and take it into a gun shop you could swap it for a new thermal scope no problem at all ....but I suppose then you wouldn’t know how to find a dog to shoot it with your new scope !
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Blr243 » 22 Apr 2020, 8:32 pm

I have heard that sometimes a boar that breaks into a lambing paddock at night will kill many lambs but only eat the gut sac because it’s predominantly the milk they were after
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Ferrisweil » 22 Apr 2020, 8:32 pm

I’m not really worried about ever “shooting a person” while using thermal as I’m either
a) too close to mistake it for a person
b) where I shoot, there just wouldn’t be people wandering around in the middle of the night

I’m more worried about other shooters on neighboring properties firing off and not knowing I’m there because we operate entirely in the dark...
Sometimes if I see a spotlight in the distance, I’ll shine my Olight in the air just so they know someone is there.
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Blr243 » 22 Apr 2020, 8:39 pm

I have had the same concerns , I hope he’s aiming at pigs to let lie not Roos in the head for the market. so if I see a neighbouring shooter spotlighting too close to the fence between us I take off to the other end of the paddock a couple of k away ..Getting any pigs or dogs Ferris ??
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Grandadbushy » 22 Apr 2020, 8:57 pm

''Probably couldn't find a dog to shoot with new scope'' :thumbsup: :lol: I wouldn't worry about that i'd soon learn :thumbsup: At present i'm using a station owners thermal when I shoot his place but haven't been back for awhile . But as for collecting all my knowledge and trade it for a thermal well mate with the knowledge I have wouldn't even pay for the box the scope came in :thumbsup: :lol: By the way you seem to have mastered it as your doing well with those pigs :thumbsup: keep it up mate its good reading , I probably missed a bit while I was off the forum but you'll get more :drinks: :thumbsup:
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Ferrisweil » 22 Apr 2020, 9:27 pm

Hey BLR. To be honest, I’ve done alright recently. I had to take groceries to my parents (they’re on a farm) and got a few dogs, and I also had to go to another family members farm out west to help re-do the stockyard as they’re buying back up post-drought.
Naturally I took the bang sticks and cleaned up. Some good sorghum out there, so you just drive along the rows and look for pigs feeding down them. See pig, stalk out, shoot pig. Think I got 20-25 for a few nights. Was knackered by the end of the few days. Without thermal, I don’t think I would have gotten more than 5.
What have you been up to? Should catch up for a beer once this Covid crap is over. You’re in Brissy right?
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by Die Judicii » 22 Apr 2020, 9:50 pm

Blr243 wrote:I have had the same concerns , I hope he’s aiming at pigs to let lie not Roos in the head for the market. so if I see a neighbouring shooter spotlighting too close to the fence between us I take off to the other end of the paddock a couple of k away ..Getting any pigs or dogs Ferris ??


I've got a green laser pointer that I keep in my bag for just those sorts of encounters.
Hit the bonnet, or side window, or windscreen with it and inside the cabin lights up green.
There can be no mistake that they have been notified that I'm out there in the darkness. :lol: :thumbsup:
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by TassieTiger » 22 Apr 2020, 9:53 pm

Bloody hell Dj - if I did that in some areas down here, a small piece of lead would hit the car lol.
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Re: Thermal/ NV IDENTFICATION. ACCIDENTS

Post by sungazer » 22 Apr 2020, 10:01 pm

Die Judicii wrote:I've got a green laser pointer that I keep in my bag for just those sorts of encounters.
Hit the bonnet, or side window, or windscreen with it and inside the cabin lights up green.
There can be no mistake that they have been notified that I'm out there in the darkness. :lol: :thumbsup:


I have done exactly the same thing with a Green laser but to let people know there is a house there. Also that the house may fire back :lol: Green they can see where the laser comes from Red and they dont know the source.

I am not having a go at any of the night vision devices at all I have used one and it was amazing. Identifying most targets was easy but some look very different in a thermal than what you would see in the day time. wombats looked really different not easily identifiable at first but that is just learning. So that side re the thread topic I dont think is such a problem. Like I said I think it is more just the normal issues of shooting in the dark amplified so much more than under a spot light at least you can see the close terrain in a spot light. It is what lurks in the dark behind the target at long range that I think there is a greater potential for accidents.
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