7.62x39 for Sambar

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7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Nov 2022, 6:16 pm

On another forum there is a discussion regarding using a 7.62x39 for Sambar. A hunter is promoting the use of the 7.62x39 for Sambar. (150gr)

A 30.30 150gr does about 2300fps. This was the minimum for many years but new rules now allow smaller stuff in Victoria.
7.62x39 150gr does about 2100fps.

NO expert here but I would consider it a bit too light. OK for fallow, perhaps at shortish distance Reds.

But Sambar are bigger again and generally stick to the thick s**t. What do people think?
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by GQshayne » 18 Nov 2022, 7:33 pm

Never hunted sambar. But if I did, it would not be with a midget .308.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigpete » 18 Nov 2022, 7:40 pm

Under powered .
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by on_one_wheel » 18 Nov 2022, 7:46 pm

Oldbloke wrote:On another forum


Traitor :lol:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 18 Nov 2022, 7:56 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:On another forum


Traitor :lol:

Oh chucks.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by deye243 » 18 Nov 2022, 8:27 pm

Well the one thing I will say is it has nothing to do with the calibre and more to do with the hunter I've taken 4 sambar deer with a so-called midget 308 (a omark44) with Hornady SST 150 grain projectiles didn't even take a footstep I would not have a problem with using one but would not recommend using a 762x39 but if you can get in close enough to shove one in his neck or his head go for it .
Have taken Sambar with the humble Winchester 94 30 30 as well if I was to do it again I would probably use a 3006 with a 180 grain projectile not as fit as I used to be also like the 7mm Remington Magnum for the job to.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by No1Mk3 » 18 Nov 2022, 8:48 pm

I have used it, it works very well at the ranges I used to hunt which was all less than 150yds and the majority less than 100. Not that much different to the 30-30 that was my main rifle for deer of all species including elk. I used a 150g SP loaded to 2200fps in a Zastava bolt action and took Sambar, Reds and pigs, those who have never used or considered the cartridge need to look at the real world data which shows the little Russian is equal to the 30-30 in most applications and if you stalk in like I used to there are no problems. I would not hesitate to use it again if I was able to do so, although my favourite is still the Winnie 94, Cheers.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by AZZA'S HJ47 » 18 Nov 2022, 9:59 pm

Know your limits the main thing is knowingly being able to make the shot. My first red deer that i got (full grown) was with a 222 and for the most part everyone said it was inhumane. My shot struck between the eyes in one side straight out the other dropped like a sack of potatoes. @ a distance of between 100-150m. Know what you and your rifle are capable of and work with what you have.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 18 Nov 2022, 11:02 pm

Oldbloke wrote:On another forum there is a discussion regarding using a 7.62x39 for Sambar. A hunter is promoting the use of the 7.62x39 for Sambar. (150gr)

A 30.30 150gr does about 2300fps. This was the minimum for many years but new rules now allow smaller stuff in Victoria.
7.62x39 150gr does about 2100fps.

NO expert here but I would consider it a bit too light. OK for fallow, perhaps at shortish distance Reds.

But Sambar are bigger again and generally stick to the thick s**t. What do people think?


Probably more to do with the specifics of the shooter, the environment and the target, but if it's accurate enough to place a bullet into the brain or cervical spine I doubt it would be an issue.

It's .30-calibre so it's really just like using a .308 at longer range, and that seems to work okay for a lot of people. Barnes do a 150gn TSX in .311" which would be a good choice I reckon. Hornady offers a 255gn Sub-X factory load as well now.
https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/7.62x39-255-gr-sub-x-subsonic#!/
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by deye243 » 19 Nov 2022, 1:26 am

on_one_wheel wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:On another forum


Traitor :lol:

Not really I think it was a kiwi site .
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by northdude » 19 Nov 2022, 8:13 am

anyone that started out hunting with an air rifle will know its all about shot placement and getting within effective range of what your using. stick to that and I cant see a problem. Hell the cullers used to use 222s over here on reds for long enough.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 19 Nov 2022, 8:27 am

northdude wrote:anyone that started out hunting with an air rifle will know its all about shot placement and getting within effective range of what your using. stick to that and I cant see a problem. Hell the cullers used to use 222s over here on reds for long enough.


Agree. Very limited on range. But no room for error.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 19 Nov 2022, 8:47 am

7.62x39 would not get consideration when i own a 30-06 and 9.3x62. no room for error with the russian round . there seems to be a current trend towards short action rifles and milder recoiling rounds . if folks are prepared to work within the range/energy limitations of such rounds , great . personally i'll go with rounds that have ample excess of energy with the right projectile for the job and much greater flexability . i also have a 6.5x55 that could drop a sambar with a correctly placed projectile , but my 30-06 is what i'd use as a minmum.
what worries me is newer shooters with little experience using something like the 7.62x39 and pulling bad shots .
i new a fella years ago who was assured by the salesman at the "big C" gunshop that 17hmr was fine for goats . boy did he look silly ,and wounded goats dying a slow death is not very humane .

it's up to the individual to assess whether or not a 7.62x39 suits their abilities i guess :thumbsup:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 19 Nov 2022, 8:51 am

northdude wrote:anyone that started out hunting with an air rifle will know its all about shot placement and getting within effective range of what your using. stick to that and I cant see a problem. Hell the cullers used to use 222s over here on reds for long enough.


the mild recoil and accuracy of the 222 make it a precise instrument in the hands of a professional . in the hands of a novice it could be disaster for the reds
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 19 Nov 2022, 9:50 am

Blackout discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8429
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 19 Nov 2022, 10:41 am

Oldbloke wrote:Blackout discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8429


another cartridge that is fine , within it's limitations . elmer keith hunted all sorts of game with a 44mag handun . but it's not what i would choose ;)

horses for coarses i guess , but some of these marginal calibers on sambar (or reds for that matter) have the same amount of practicallity and common sense as a 223 , 16" barrel, muzzle braked, tacticool rifle , but people buy them :roll:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 19 Nov 2022, 11:08 am

No expert but:

Just googling and found 7.62x39 has about
1,439 ft⋅lbf at the muzzle.

My mild reloads for 30.06 (180gr) loads have 2400 ft lb at the muzzle and still have 1600 ft lb at 200 yards.

Seems to me it would only be reliable on larger species up to about 100 yards, if that.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 19 Nov 2022, 5:49 pm

Oldbloke wrote:No expert but:

Just googling and found 7.62x39 has about
1,439 ft⋅lbf at the muzzle.

My mild reloads for 30.06 (180gr) loads have 2400 ft lb at the muzzle and still have 1600 ft lb at 200 yards.

Seems to me it would only be reliable on larger species up to about 100 yards, if that.


the 7.62x39 was designed for the ak47 . which in turn was a modified version of the german stg44 and it's short 8x33 kurtz round .military doctrine seems to think wounding the enemy ties up their resources better than killing outright and the smaller round means more ammo can be carried . why folks would choose to hunt with a assult rifle round when there's so many good hunting calibers around baffles me .i 'spose 357 mag in a lever gun does well for pigs for a lot of people but :D
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by yoshie » 19 Nov 2022, 5:58 pm

I shot one with 30-06 (150g SST) and was surprised how far she ran. I'd say too small, but then they get shot with 22s out of car windows...
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 19 Nov 2022, 6:29 pm

yoshie wrote:I shot one with 30-06 (150g SST) and was surprised how far she ran. I'd say too small, but then they get shot with 22s out of car windows...


a 165gn -180gn projectile may have performed better . 165gn nosler accubond or partition would be my choice . a 150 barnes tsx out of the '06 through the shoulder/chest and it wouldn't have gone anywhere . on a recent trip to NT lots of locals swear by the barnes in calibers that are on the small size for stuff. my own 9.3x62 did well with 250 barnes on buff . :thumbsup:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 19 Nov 2022, 7:24 pm

The difference between the two cartridges is really only a range difference as the choice of bullets, ie their mechanical ability, is virtually identical.

Hornady offer the 150gn Interlock soft-point bullet in .308" and .312" for the Euro-calibres.
At 400m the 2800fps .308 is down to 1750fps, which is the speed the 2200fps 7.62x39mm makes at 185m. So if you consider the .308Win to be effective at 400m, you would have to consider the 7.62x39mm to be equally effective out to at least 185m as the result on the target with the same bullet is going to be virtually identical. If you only consider the .308 to be effective out to 300m (1980fps) then the 7.62x39mm must be effective to 85m (1980fps) at least.

The 7.62x39mm is likely to be hampered by shorter barrels and probably restricted cartridge lengths (standard 7.62x39mm is .055" shorter than .223) which restricts velocity potential. If you have a longer barrel, say 22" like most .308 hunting rifles would have, and you can seat to the 2.800" length of the standard short-action, I think the differences would be significantly reduced. I wish I owned a short-action 7.62x39m to do an actual comparison.

This mob using factory ammo only found a loss of around 100fps with 123gn bullets from 24" barrels down to 16.5".
https://rifleshooter.com/2016/01/7-62x39-mm-russian-effects-of-barrel-length-on-velocity/
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 19 Nov 2022, 7:49 pm

bladeracer wrote:The difference between the two cartridges is really only a range difference as the choice of bullets, ie their mechanical ability, is virtually identical.

Hornady offer the 150gn Interlock soft-point bullet in .308" and .312" for the Euro-calibres.
At 400m the 2800fps .308 is down to 1750fps, which is the speed the 2200fps 7.62x39mm makes at 185m. So if you consider the .308Win to be effective at 400m, you would have to consider the 7.62x39mm to be equally effective out to at least 185m as the result on the target with the same bullet is going to be virtually identical. If you only consider the .308 to be effective out to 300m (1980fps) then the 7.62x39mm must be effective to 85m (1980fps) at least.

The 7.62x39mm is likely to be hampered by shorter barrels and probably restricted cartridge lengths (standard 7.62x39mm is .055" shorter than .223) which restricts velocity potential. If you have a longer barrel, say 22" like most .308 hunting rifles would have, and you can seat to the 2.800" length of the standard short-action, I think the differences would be significantly reduced. I wish I owned a short-action 7.62x39m to do an actual comparison.

This mob using factory ammo only found a loss of around 100fps with 123gn bullets from 24" barrels down to 16.5".
https://rifleshooter.com/2016/01/7-62x39-mm-russian-effects-of-barrel-length-on-velocity/


all good valid points and observations blade , i think however i'd just use a 30-06 with a good 165-180 bullet . with a decent bullet in the russian round (think i sent some woodleighs to someone recently :) ) it would improve performance . i read somewhere that ruger chambered rifles for .308 instead of .311 in one of their compact rifles , which would open up projectile choice and flexability of the russian round :thumbsup:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 19 Nov 2022, 8:07 pm

bigrich wrote:all good valid points and observations blade , i think however i'd just use a 30-06 with a good 165-180 bullet . with a decent bullet in the russian round (think i sent some woodleighs to someone recently :) ) it would improve performance . i read somewhere that ruger chambered rifles for .308 instead of .311 in one of their compact rifles , which would open up projectile choice and flexability of the russian round :thumbsup:


I tend to agree with you, a heavier jacketed bullet, or a lighter copper bullet, but in 7mm-08 rather than .308. I don't think the .30-06 is a significant step up over the .308. In .284" bullets Barnes offer the TSX/TTSX from 110gn to 175gn.

Yes, I've read that the Ranch Rifle and the Mini14 had .308" bores but I've never confirmed it. That would greatly increase bullet options. If its magazine and/or chamber length is set up for standard length rounds though I think choices are going to be fairly limited. The 123gn Barnes TSX though may be a good choice as copper bullets tend to hang together better than jacketed ones so you can often step down a level or two in weight. Don't know that I'd want to use this into the boiler room of a big sambar stag but it might work just fine. The 170gn or new 255gn Sub-X subsonic might be a better bet.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 19 Nov 2022, 8:27 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bigrich wrote:all good valid points and observations blade , i think however i'd just use a 30-06 with a good 165-180 bullet . with a decent bullet in the russian round (think i sent some woodleighs to someone recently :) ) it would improve performance . i read somewhere that ruger chambered rifles for .308 instead of .311 in one of their compact rifles , which would open up projectile choice and flexability of the russian round :thumbsup:


I tend to agree with you, a heavier jacketed bullet, or a lighter copper bullet, but in 7mm-08 rather than .308. I don't think the .30-06 is a significant step up over the .308. In .284" bullets Barnes offer the TSX/TTSX from 110gn to 175gn.

Yes, I've read that the Ranch Rifle and the Mini14 had .308" bores but I've never confirmed it. That would greatly increase bullet options. If its magazine and/or chamber length is set up for standard length rounds though I think choices are going to be fairly limited. The 123gn Barnes TSX though may be a good choice as copper bullets tend to hang together better than jacketed ones so you can often step down a level or two in weight. Don't know that I'd want to use this into the boiler room of a big sambar stag but it might work just fine. The 170gn or new 255gn Sub-X subsonic might be a better bet.


with regards to the 308/30-06 , i believe when you step up to 180's the 30-06 really starts to shine . a 180 partition out of a '06 would take a sambar at most ranges and shot angles . definately room for error ;) 180 tsx out of '06 are a good thing on scrubbers and kill the first pig and mortally wound the one behind it ! i've seen this first hand .
i had the idea for a project years ago to build a zastava 7.62x39 with a .308 barrel and explore this round . but i've had so many builds and projects over the years i'm liking simple things with off the shelf components and not waiting on gunsmiths :P
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 20 Nov 2022, 11:55 am

bigrich wrote:with regards to the 308/30-06 , i believe when you step up to 180's the 30-06 really starts to shine . a 180 partition out of a '06 would take a sambar at most ranges and shot angles . definately room for error ;) 180 tsx out of '06 are a good thing on scrubbers and kill the first pig and mortally wound the one behind it ! i've seen this first hand .
i had the idea for a project years ago to build a zastava 7.62x39 with a .308 barrel and explore this round . but i've had so many builds and projects over the years i'm liking simple things with off the shelf components and not waiting on gunsmiths :P


I think you can see some difference between the two cartridges, but it's not likely to be a significant difference. Getting up into the really heavy bullets, 200gn+, the .308's reduced case capacity does rule out some of the denser powders, unless you have a long throat and/or are happy to single load.

I did a quick Google for first-hand numbers (rather than load data) and it seems a little more than 2500fps is realistic for the 220gn SMK in a 12"-twist 20" .308, which is pretty decent, it's still doing 2000fps at 500yds. Surprisingly this was only seated to 2.820" so still runs through standard short-action mags. Numbers I found for the .30-06 are right around the same place, 2500fps but with a 220gn round nose hunting bullet. I think with handloading the .308 and .30-06 are going to be running around the same velocities with the same bullets in similar rifles. The .308 is smaller but burns more efficiently than the .30-06.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 20 Nov 2022, 12:05 pm

bladeracer wrote:
bigrich wrote:with regards to the 308/30-06 , i believe when you step up to 180's the 30-06 really starts to shine . a 180 partition out of a '06 would take a sambar at most ranges and shot angles . definately room for error ;) 180 tsx out of '06 are a good thing on scrubbers and kill the first pig and mortally wound the one behind it ! i've seen this first hand .
i had the idea for a project years ago to build a zastava 7.62x39 with a .308 barrel and explore this round . but i've had so many builds and projects over the years i'm liking simple things with off the shelf components and not waiting on gunsmiths :P


I think you can see some difference between the two cartridges, but it's not likely to be a significant difference. Getting up into the really heavy bullets, 200gn+, the .308's reduced case capacity does rule out some of the denser powders, unless you have a long throat and/or are happy to single load.

I did a quick Google for first-hand numbers (rather than load data) and it seems a little more than 2500fps is realistic for the 220gn SMK in a 12"-twist 20" .308, which is pretty decent, it's still doing 2000fps at 500yds. Surprisingly this was only seated to 2.820" so still runs through standard short-action mags. Numbers I found for the .30-06 are right around the same place, 2500fps but with a 220gn round nose hunting bullet. I think with handloading the .308 and .30-06 are going to be running around the same velocities with the same bullets in similar rifles. The .308 is smaller but burns more efficiently than the .30-06.


at the end of the day it's splitting hairs. after a quick look through uncle nick's bible there's about 100fps difference between the two on average . 30-06 seems to have a less sharp recoil to me , more of a shove . i'm not hung up on short action , light rifles . if anything, cause i'm a 6'4" 130kg boofhead , i shoot offhand better with a hefty rifle . light rifles i wobble all over the place :lol: i woulda been the one carrying the bren in WW2 :D
regardless, back on topic , there are better choices for sambar than the 7.62x39 :thumbsup:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 20 Nov 2022, 2:47 pm

I own a 30.06 and have looked at the advantages of it over 308 using bullets in the order of 200gr.

Although the 30.06 has a fair bit more powder capacity the gains are not great, that's for sure. If I was starting again I'd go 308 and stick to say 165gr bullets. In real life for me at least 150yards is a long shot, so it's all academic.

Weight difference is not great, between long and short action about 30 or 40 grams if that.

BTW, I load 180gr in one and 130gr in the other. Both mild loads.

After playing with GRT for a while now I've noticed there are huge variations in velocity between what GRT and reloading manuals state. So, who knows what your getting unless you use a chronograph
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by wrenchman » 21 Nov 2022, 11:37 am

i am not familiar with the size of the sambar deer but the 7.62x39 is used here for the white tail deer it does seem like the hard part is finding ammo that performs well my oldest son has the ruger ranch rifle and it does seem to be his problem.
we have got dies so we can load for it and are looking at what we need
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bladeracer » 21 Nov 2022, 11:51 am

wrenchman wrote:i am not familiar with the size of the sambar deer but the 7.62x39 is used here for the white tail deer it does seem like the hard part is finding ammo that performs well my oldest son has the ruger ranch rifle and it does seem to be his problem.
we have got dies so we can load for it and are looking at what we need


Sambar are fairly big compared to the deer I see on US deer forums. More akin to small horses and ponies I think. In the 100kg to 320kg realm (say 220lb to about 750lb - maybe double the weight of white-tail?), and three-foot to five-foot at the shoulder. Pretty sure most people are shooting them at the smaller end unless they're after racks to hang on the wall, but they're still fairly formidable beasts.

Can you confirm whether your son's rifle has a .310" or .308" bore?
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 21 Nov 2022, 2:00 pm

Yes, donkey or small horse size.

From Authur Bently's book An Introduction to AU Deer.

Resized_20221121_144553.jpeg
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