7.62x39 for Sambar

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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 16 Feb 2023, 5:08 pm

bigrich wrote:
animalpest wrote:The question would be - If there is a sambar standing there which isn't the perfect shot, would you shoot it anyway?


absolutely .my point is if i was in sambar territory i would be carrying something more sustantial than a 7.62x39 . more room for error when you don't have a good shot angle with greater energy and penetration with a more suitable caliber :thumbsup:


And that's the crux of the matter really, large calibre to make up for a poor shot.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 16 Feb 2023, 5:11 pm

animalpest wrote:For medium calibres, hydrostatic shock drops off significantly below 2600 fps. For medium bores its about 2200 fps and for big bores, it stops below about 1800 fps.


Isn't hydrostatic shock still an unproven theory?
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 16 Feb 2023, 7:30 pm

Fionn wrote:
bigrich wrote:
animalpest wrote:The question would be - If there is a sambar standing there which isn't the perfect shot, would you shoot it anyway?


absolutely .my point is if i was in sambar territory i would be carrying something more sustantial than a 7.62x39 . more room for error when you don't have a good shot angle with greater energy and penetration with a more suitable caliber :thumbsup:


And that's the crux of the matter really, large calibre to make up for a poor shot.


I guess you must be the perfect marksman in the bush then. And all your shots always hit precisely.

I envy you if that's true.

Well, lets see. If you use smaller calibres or cartridges with less energy they may not penetrate sufficiently or the wound channel will be smaller. In addition if they hit solid bone, may not get through to the vitals.

When chasing sambar your not going to get too many "classic" shot presentations & your not shooting a target at a range from a bench with all the time in the world to pull the trigger.

Oh, and I'll just add. They like really thick s**t. Sometimes it only need to take a few paces to disappear into acres of blackberries.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 16 Feb 2023, 8:22 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Fionn wrote:
bigrich wrote:
animalpest wrote:The question would be - If there is a sambar standing there which isn't the perfect shot, would you shoot it anyway?


absolutely .my point is if i was in sambar territory i would be carrying something more sustantial than a 7.62x39 . more room for error when you don't have a good shot angle with greater energy and penetration with a more suitable caliber :thumbsup:


And that's the crux of the matter really, large calibre to make up for a poor shot.


I guess you must be the perfect marksman in the bush then. And all your shots always hit precisely.

I envy you if that's true.

Well, lets see. If you use smaller calibres or cartridges with less energy they may not penetrate sufficiently or the wound channel will be smaller. In addition if they hit solid bone, may not get through to the vitals.

When chasing sambar your not going to get too many "classic" shot presentations & your not shooting a target at a range from a bench with all the time in the world to pull the trigger.

Oh, and I'll just add. They like really thick s**t. Sometimes it only need to take a few paces to disappear into acres of blackberries.


Its not that at all its a just

Image

A well placed shot with a small calibre is far better than a badly placed shot with a large one. The problem is most people are trigger happy and blast anything that moves, hence the need for large calibers and for that matter the need for hiz-viz hunting clothing is a good example of this very issue.

Unlike you, I would pass up a shot where I wasn't comfortable it was a good shot, but I am there for the hunt and looking for something particular not just to kill any animals I see.

If your not getting or seeing Sambar present good shots maybe you need to work on your hunting ability.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 16 Feb 2023, 10:50 pm

"Unlike you, I would pass up a shot where I wasn't comfortable it was a good shot, but I am there for the hunt and looking for something particular not just to kill any animals I see.

If your not getting or seeing Sambar present good shots maybe you need to work on your hunting ability"

FYI A smart cop doesn't make assumptions.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 17 Feb 2023, 5:07 am

Oldbloke wrote:"Unlike you, I would pass up a shot where I wasn't comfortable it was a good shot, but I am there for the hunt and looking for something particular not just to kill any animals I see.

If your not getting or seeing Sambar present good shots maybe you need to work on your hunting ability"

FYI A smart cop doesn't make assumptions.


Agreed :thumbsup:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 17 Feb 2023, 5:15 am

Fionn wrote:
animalpest wrote:For medium calibres, hydrostatic shock drops off significantly below 2600 fps. For medium bores its about 2200 fps and for big bores, it stops below about 1800 fps.


Isn't hydrostatic shock still an unproven theory?


Ummm, no . Hydrostatic shock is proven physics, the terminal ballistics website talks about it in detail when discussing performance of various caliber. The relationship of bore diameter and sectional density is written about at length as well as bullet velocity in relation to hydrostatic shock. Big difference in projectiles performance between 6.5 grendal and 264 win mag for example. I’ve seen this in action with my 358 Winchester. The energy transfer on pigs was spectacular with the wider bore :thumbsup:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by straightshooter » 17 Feb 2023, 7:35 am

bigrich wrote:
Fionn wrote:
animalpest wrote:For medium calibres, hydrostatic shock drops off significantly below 2600 fps. For medium bores its about 2200 fps and for big bores, it stops below about 1800 fps.


Isn't hydrostatic shock still an unproven theory?


Ummm, no . Hydrostatic shock is proven physics, the terminal ballistics website talks about it in detail when discussing performance of various caliber. The relationship of bore diameter and sectional density is written about at length as well as bullet velocity in relation to hydrostatic shock. Big difference in projectiles performance between 6.5 grendal and 264 win mag for example. I’ve seen this in action with my 358 Winchester. The energy transfer on pigs was spectacular with the wider bore :thumbsup:

"Hydrostatic shock is proven physics"..... maybe in cartoon world.
Even the word Hydrostatic is a misnomer in this shooting context. Perhaps a more appropriate term to describe the concept might be Transient Hydraulic Shock.
I would like to see somebody explain the actual mechanism of Hydrostatic shock and how it brings about the demise of a game animal and why the even greater hydrostatic shock imparted on the shooter by the recoil of the rifle causes nothing more than irritation or slight pain.
Hydrostatic shock is simply gun writer/advertising gobbledegook that has little to do with the actual mechanisms of destruction of flesh and bone by a bullet.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 17 Feb 2023, 8:06 am

straightshooter wrote:
bigrich wrote:
Fionn wrote:
animalpest wrote:For medium calibres, hydrostatic shock drops off significantly below 2600 fps. For medium bores its about 2200 fps and for big bores, it stops below about 1800 fps.


Isn't hydrostatic shock still an unproven theory?


Ummm, no . Hydrostatic shock is proven physics, the terminal ballistics website talks about it in detail when discussing performance of various caliber. The relationship of bore diameter and sectional density is written about at length as well as bullet velocity in relation to hydrostatic shock. Big difference in projectiles performance between 6.5 grendal and 264 win mag for example. I’ve seen this in action with my 358 Winchester. The energy transfer on pigs was spectacular with the wider bore :thumbsup:

"Hydrostatic shock is proven physics"..... maybe in cartoon world.
Even the word Hydrostatic is a misnomer in this shooting context. Perhaps a more appropriate term to describe the concept might be Transient Hydraulic Shock.
I would like to see somebody explain the actual mechanism of Hydrostatic shock and how it brings about the demise of a game animal and why the even greater hydrostatic shock imparted on the shooter by the recoil of the rifle causes nothing more than irritation or slight pain.
Hydrostatic shock is simply gun writer/advertising gobbledegook that has little to do with the actual mechanisms of destruction of flesh and bone by a bullet.


read nathan foster's wrightings on this subject . he explains it well . bascally , mammals (and other creatures) are made up of a certain amount of water .. energy transfers through the game because of this . velocity , sectional density are all variables in energy transfer . a FMJ 308 target bullet will pencil through game , a rapidly expanding 358 225 sierra actually produces a entry wound that looks like a exit wound due to energy transfer , hydrostatic shock . i've seen this first hand . :thumbsup:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by animalpest » 17 Feb 2023, 10:30 am

If hydrostatic shock (remote nerve damage) was so common, then if I hit a roo on the nose with a 22/250, just a few inches from the brain, then surely you would see hydrostatic shock. Nope, the bullet just blows the snout off and the poor roo hops away.

Hydrostatic shock can be seen in ballistic gelatin, similar to a stone being thrown into water.

So while hydrostatic shock may occur, I am not convinced that it occurs regularly to the stage where it causes an animal to collapse or die.

Hydraulic shock on the other hand is very real and can be obvious. When meat or organs are turned to mush some distance from the path of the bullet, that is Hydraulic shock. But you need velocity for that to occur.
So I should have used Hydraulic instead of hydrostatic.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Oldbloke » 17 Feb 2023, 10:38 am

animalpest wrote:If hydrostatic shock (remote nerve damage) was so common, then if I hit a roo on the nose with a 22/250, just a few inches from the brain, then surely you would see hydrostatic shock. Nope, the bullet just blows the snout off and the poor roo hops away.

Hydrostatic shock can be seen in ballistic gelatin, similar to a stone being thrown into water.

So while hydrostatic shock may occur, I am not convinced that it occurs regularly to the stage where it causes an animal to collapse or die.

Hydraulic shock on the other hand is very real and can be obvious. When meat or organs are turned to mush some distance from the path of the bullet, that is Hydraulic shock. But you need velocity for that to occur.
So I should have used Hydraulic instead of hydrostatic.


That's my understanding also.

How much velocity is the burning question?
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 17 Feb 2023, 12:14 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
FYI A smart cop doesn't make assumptions.


Why not? making explicit assumptions is the first step in critical thinking.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 17 Feb 2023, 12:18 pm

animalpest wrote:If hydrostatic shock (remote nerve damage) was so common, then if I hit a roo on the nose with a 22/250, just a few inches from the brain, then surely you would see hydrostatic shock. Nope, the bullet just blows the snout off and the poor roo hops away.

Hydrostatic shock can be seen in ballistic gelatin, similar to a stone being thrown into water.

So while hydrostatic shock may occur, I am not convinced that it occurs regularly to the stage where it causes an animal to collapse or die.

Hydraulic shock on the other hand is very real and can be obvious. When meat or organs are turned to mush some distance from the path of the bullet, that is Hydraulic shock. But you need velocity for that to occur.
So I should have used Hydraulic instead of hydrostatic.


Ahh yeah, hydraulic shock is the term I should’ve used also. High velocity and/or energy transfer through energy dump of a wide bore and rapid expansion are ways to achieve this.I think ;)
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 17 Feb 2023, 12:20 pm

bigrich wrote:
Ummm, no . Hydrostatic shock is proven physics,


No its not, its a theory with very little to no evidence that supports it.

bigrich wrote:the terminal ballistics website talks about it in detail when discussing performance of various caliber. The relationship of bore diameter and sectional density is written about at length as well as bullet velocity in relation to hydrostatic shock. Big difference in projectiles performance between 6.5 grendal and 264 win mag for example. I’ve seen this in action with my 358 Winchester. The energy transfer on pigs was spectacular with the wider bore :thumbsup:


Oh you mean website of the former security guard/bouncer who is not a physics/doctor/surgeon.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 17 Feb 2023, 12:27 pm

animalpest wrote:So I should have used Hydraulic instead of hydrostatic.


Still not Hydraulic shock either, its simply a shock wave or overpressure.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 17 Feb 2023, 12:43 pm

Fionn wrote:
animalpest wrote:So I should have used Hydraulic instead of hydrostatic.


Still not Hydraulic shock either, its simply a shock wave or overpressure.


Have a look at slow motion video of bullets hitting ballistic gel and game animals. You can see the shock waves in action. A concussion grenade incapacitates with shock waves through the air . Shock waves can also travel through water and solid objects. Do a quick google search on hydrostatic and or hydraulic shock :thumbsup:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 17 Feb 2023, 12:45 pm

Fionn wrote:
bigrich wrote:
Ummm, no . Hydrostatic shock is proven physics,


No its not, its a theory with very little to no evidence that supports it.

bigrich wrote:the terminal ballistics website talks about it in detail when discussing performance of various caliber. The relationship of bore diameter and sectional density is written about at length as well as bullet velocity in relation to hydrostatic shock. Big difference in projectiles performance between 6.5 grendal and 264 win mag for example. I’ve seen this in action with my 358 Winchester. The energy transfer on pigs was spectacular with the wider bore :thumbsup:


Oh you mean website of the former security guard/bouncer who is not a physics/doctor/surgeon.


You left out the fact he’s been hunting most of his life and has been running a hunting guide business for a number of years and was recently approached by sako to test their factory ammunition
What are your qualifications :unknown:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 17 Feb 2023, 4:11 pm

bigrich wrote:
Fionn wrote:
animalpest wrote:So I should have used Hydraulic instead of hydrostatic.


Still not Hydraulic shock either, its simply a shock wave or overpressure.


Have a look at slow motion video of bullets hitting ballistic gel and game animals. You can see the shock waves in action. A concussion grenade incapacitates with shock waves through the air . Shock waves can also travel through water and solid objects. Do a quick google search on hydrostatic and or hydraulic shock :thumbsup:


I know what hydrostatic and hydraulic is that's why I said its simply a shock wave or overpressure.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 17 Feb 2023, 4:19 pm

bigrich wrote:
Fionn wrote:
bigrich wrote:
Ummm, no . Hydrostatic shock is proven physics,


No its not, its a theory with very little to no evidence that supports it.

bigrich wrote:the terminal ballistics website talks about it in detail when discussing performance of various caliber. The relationship of bore diameter and sectional density is written about at length as well as bullet velocity in relation to hydrostatic shock. Big difference in projectiles performance between 6.5 grendal and 264 win mag for example. I’ve seen this in action with my 358 Winchester. The energy transfer on pigs was spectacular with the wider bore :thumbsup:


Oh you mean website of the former security guard/bouncer who is not a physics/doctor/surgeon.


You left out the fact he’s been hunting most of his life and has been running a hunting guide business for a number of years and was recently approached by sako to test their factory ammunition
What are your qualifications :unknown:


I felt I had added enough unrelated qualification of his that I felt I didn't need to add any more, but please feel free.

Remember that he is the one pushing a theory with no qualified supporting evidence. If he supplied peered review evidence on his theory, I would be interested to see it.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 17 Feb 2023, 5:28 pm

Fionn wrote:
bigrich wrote:
Fionn wrote:
bigrich wrote:
Ummm, no . Hydrostatic shock is proven physics,


No its not, its a theory with very little to no evidence that supports it.

bigrich wrote:the terminal ballistics website talks about it in detail when discussing performance of various caliber. The relationship of bore diameter and sectional density is written about at length as well as bullet velocity in relation to hydrostatic shock. Big difference in projectiles performance between 6.5 grendal and 264 win mag for example. I’ve seen this in action with my 358 Winchester. The energy transfer on pigs was spectacular with the wider bore :thumbsup:


Oh you mean website of the former security guard/bouncer who is not a physics/doctor/surgeon.


You left out the fact he’s been hunting most of his life and has been running a hunting guide business for a number of years and was recently approached by sako to test their factory ammunition
What are your qualifications :unknown:


I felt I had added enough unrelated qualification of his that I felt I didn't need to add any more, but please feel free.

Remember that he is the one pushing a theory with no qualified supporting evidence. If he supplied peered review evidence on his theory, I would be interested to see it.


Yeah, people without university degrees and a heap of letters after their name couldn’t know anything hey :sarcasm:
On my last guided hunt, one of the fellas was a absolute treasure trove of bushcraft and knowledge of the animals in it. Lots of knowledge and practical experience that can’t be gained from uni or books. Hes a timber cutter who never finished high school
Next thing you’ll be saying uncle nick doesn’t know anything of value.
With regards to Nathan foster , I’ve found a lot of his beliefs and knowledge to be true from what I’ve seen in the field myself. How many books have you published, or articles for outdoor magazines fionn?
I’ve already explained the relationship of energy transfer and how this relates to producing hydraulic shock travelling through the mass of a game animal. Maybe you should go study this with different caliber and projectiles in the field
Theirs a certain amount of mechanical wounding with a hollow point pistol bullet, but the energy transfer through muscle mass is a hydraulic effect
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 17 Feb 2023, 6:20 pm

bigrich wrote:Yeah, people without university degrees and a heap of letters after their name couldn’t know anything hey :sarcasm:


Stop playing the victim card.

bigrich wrote: How many books have you published, or articles for outdoor magazines fionn?


None, its not ever something I would consider doing either why would I? What a really silly question to ask!

bigrich wrote:
I’ve already explained the relationship of energy transfer and how this relates to producing hydraulic shock travelling through the mass of a game animal.


No you haven't. given hydraulic shock is fluid in motion how does it travel though the mass of an animal? What about a bodies ability to absorb pressure waves. ie if a car traveling at 100kmph runs over a persons legs, why doesn't their head pop off? or they suffer, heart, kidney, liver, brain damage or any organ damage.

Why do trauma surgeons, say they have never seen it with gunshot victims.

bigrich wrote:
Theirs a certain amount of mechanical wounding with a hollow point pistol bullet, but the energy transfer through muscle mass is a hydraulic effect
:thumbsup:


Its not an effect, its a theory that hasn't been shown to be true.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Blr243 » 17 Feb 2023, 8:40 pm

Is any country still useing this cartridge as their stsndard military round ? I would have thought it would be upgraded to a flatter shooting option
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by animalpest » 18 Feb 2023, 12:11 am

Hydraulic shock is very real. Call it whatever you want to.

Necropsy enough animals from different calibres, different speeds and using different bullets and you will see for yourself.

Medium to large calibres with velocity that are below 2000fps at impact and you can eat up to the hole!
Try that with a high velocity round.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 18 Feb 2023, 4:40 am

animalpest wrote:Hydraulic shock is very real. Call it whatever you want to.

Necropsy enough animals from different calibres, different speeds and using different bullets and you will see for yourself.

Medium to large calibres with velocity that are below 2000fps at impact and you can eat up to the hole!
Try that with a high velocity round.


i agree . i've read a lot of nathan fosters writings on such effects, and found his information to be true . my 358 win demonstrated this with the wounds it caused on pigs to be not caused by the mechanics of projectile expansion , but the "hydralic" effect of energy transfer through body tissue. a 225 game king would actually cause energy/hydraulic "blow back" at the entry point as he describes in his review on the 358 and 35 whelen calibers .
it's my opinion that fionn is a keyboard/armchair warrior with little or no experience in the field . :thumbsup:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by bigrich » 18 Feb 2023, 4:57 am

Blr243 wrote:Is any country still useing this cartridge as their stsndard military round ? I would have thought it would be upgraded to a flatter shooting option


it's still widely used , especially in african nations and former soviet countries . the russians did develope their own version of the 5.56 nato round for their AK's at some point . 7.62x39 with hunting projectiles would be a useful hunting round, but not for sambar in my opinion .it just does not have enough down range energy .according to chuck hawks ballistic chart , a 7.62x39 has the same energy at the muzzle as a 243 has at 200 yards with a 95gn BT . ruger did make some rifles with a true 3.08 bore which would open up projectile choice immensely .
i saw a custom rifle for sale on used guns i think , chambered in 308x1.5 . which after some googling , looks like a attempt at a wildcat cartridge to produce a similar round to the 7.62x39 :thumbsup:
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by SCJ429 » 18 Feb 2023, 10:34 am

bigrich wrote:
Blr243 wrote:Is any country still useing this cartridge as their stsndard military round ? I would have thought it would be upgraded to a flatter shooting option


it's still widely used , especially in african nations and former soviet countries . the russians did develope their own version of the 5.56 nato round for their AK's at some point . 7.62x39 with hunting projectiles would be a useful hunting round, but not for sambar in my opinion .it just does not have enough down range energy .according to chuck hawks ballistic chart , a 7.62x39 has the same energy at the muzzle as a 243 has at 200 yards with a 95gn BT . ruger did make some rifles with a true 3.08 bore which would open up projectile choice immensely .
i saw a custom rifle for sale on used guns i think , chambered in 308x1.5 . which after some googling , looks like a attempt at a wildcat cartridge to produce a similar round to the 7.62x39 :thumbsup:

You could make something similar to the 39 using Grendel brass necked up to 308. I have used a 30BR and the ballistics are pretty good, about 80% of what a 308 WIN can do.
As for the Russian case, I think it has proved itself in combat. Billions of them have been fired in anger.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Blr243 » 18 Feb 2023, 3:50 pm

Thank u
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 18 Feb 2023, 7:14 pm

animalpest wrote:Hydraulic shock is very real. Call it whatever you want to.

Necropsy enough animals from different calibres, different speeds and using different bullets and you will see for yourself.

Medium to large calibres with velocity that are below 2000fps at impact and you can eat up to the hole!
Try that with a high velocity round.


Hydraulic shock is real, just associating it with gunshot wounds has not been proven.

While high velocity round can cause more damage, its not to do with Hydraulic shock, as Hydraulic shock is the movement of fluid.

While lots of people without any medical knowledge or qualifications seem to claim its real, there is next to no medical evidence to support it, (although some from 80 years ago) and a lot of people have been shot by high velocity rounds and had very detailed autopsy's undertaken.

I think the best example of why it doesn't exist is the use of a lithotriptor.

As to nathan fosters claims, I looked at his claims and notice that he claims that a punch to the jaw can result in a knockout due to hydrostatic shock, this is well known to be incorrect, its about head rotation and bouncing the brain (simple terms). But he uses it as proof hydrostatic shock exists.

Its a classic case of the Dunning Kruger effect.

But happy to be shown to be wrong, so post some medical findings that show hydrostatic shock killed a person from a gunshot wound.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by animalpest » 18 Feb 2023, 7:50 pm

No claims of any evidence that hydrostatic static shock has killed any person. I am sceptical of its effects (if any) on people or animals.

The effect of hydraulic shock is clear. I don't need to publish and have peer reviewed a paper to demonstrate that.
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Re: 7.62x39 for Sambar

Post by Fionn » 18 Feb 2023, 8:59 pm

animalpest wrote:No claims of any evidence that hydrostatic static shock has killed any person. I am sceptical of its effects (if any) on people or animals.

The effect of hydraulic shock is clear. I don't need to publish and have peer reviewed a paper to demonstrate that.


The effect of Hydraulic shock can be seen as water hammer in plumbing, so yes it's clear and exists. What is not clear is that it has not been proven that a gunshot wounds produce it or if it does that it has any effect on a body such as causing death or injury.

Correlation is not causation.

If a gunshot wound can cause it, why doesn't a Lithotripsy?
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