What decided the gun dog breeds?

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What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by vexesus » 03 Jun 2014, 7:08 pm

Hi guys,

I'm not looking to do deer hunting with hounds, but was killing some time reading about hunting stuff and found the breeds of dogs your allowed to stalk deer with in Victoria.

It's short as... The list from DEPI website is...

  • Border Terrier
  • Fox Terrier (smooth)
  • Fox Terrier (wire)
  • German Hunting Terrier (Jagd Terrier)
  • Jack Russell Terrier
  • Finnish Spitz
  • Norwegian Elkhound
  • Dachshund

All pretty small dogs... Not everyone wants a yapper.

There must be heaps of dogs that are capable of this right? All the herding dogs?

Things like cattle dog, border collie, german shepherd, heelers... There must be like 100 dogs that could do it?
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by MeccaOz » 03 Jun 2014, 7:17 pm

I guess different breeds have different traits ... But I wonder why they have an "Allowed Breed" list, I'm thinking a good stalking dog could be anything that pops up and fills the bill ?
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by tom604 » 03 Jun 2014, 7:47 pm

it maybe that as some dogs can get lost they dont want a german shepherd running around getting hungry, also they like them to voice so that the hunters know where they and the deer are ;)
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Chronos » 03 Jun 2014, 7:58 pm

hey vex, have you got a link to that list? doesn't sound right to me. almost none of those dogs you listed are scent hounds, i'd expect to see that list to look more like GSP, HV, weimers, english pointers and WHP's all known ground and air scent tracking dogs

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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Chronos » 03 Jun 2014, 8:05 pm

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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Chronos » 03 Jun 2014, 8:17 pm

ok, from what i can see this list (added in 2012) is an addition to the "gun dog breed list", adding some companion dogs to the list of "real" gun dogs


A new category – ‘deer hunting
dogs’
Under the previous regulations, only specified gundog breeds and
Beagles and Bloodhounds could be used to hunt Sambar Deer.

The new breeds of ‘deer hunting dogs’ are:
• Border Terrier
• Fox Terrier (smooth)
• Fox Terrier (wire)
• German Hunting Terrier
(Jagd Terrier)
• Jack Russell Terrier
• Finnish Spitz
• Norwegian Elkhound
• Dachshund

reading the entire document it also says

The new regulations maintain the list of 25 gundogs, with the
addition of four more gundog breeds for game birds and deer hunting
(not including Hog Deer). They are:
• Bracco Italiana
• Hungarian Wirehair Viszla
• Lagatto Ramangolo
• Weimaraner (Long haired)
A full list of approved permitted gundog breeds is included at Part 1
of Schedule 5 of the Wildlife (Game) Regulations 2012.

that full list is here

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/ ... /sch5.html


APPROVED DOGS FOR HUNTING

PART 1—GUNDOGS

Bracco Italiano

Brittany Spaniel (Epagneul Breton)

Chesapeake Bay Retriever

Clumber Spaniel

Cocker Spaniel

Cocker Spaniel (American)

Curly Coated Retriever

English Setter

English Springer Spaniel

Field Spaniel

Flat Coated Retriever

German Shorthaired Pointer

German Wirehaired Pointer (Deutsch Drahthaar)

Golden Retriever

Gordon Setter

Hungarian Vizsla

Hungarian Wirehair Vizsla

Irish Red and White Setter

Irish Setter

Irish Water Spaniel

Italian Spinone

Labrador Retriever

Lagotto Romagnolo

Large Munsterlander

Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever

Pointer

Sussex Spaniel

Weimaraner

Weimaraner (longhair)

Welsh Springer Spaniel


then is lists

Bloodhound

Beagle

Harrier


then the new list of additions

Border Terrier

Dachshund

Finnish Spitz

Fox Terrier (smooth)

Fox Terrier (wire)

German Hunting Terrier (Jagd Terrier)

Jack Russell Terrier

Norwegian Elkhound



phew, hope that helps make it crystal clear :lol:

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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by MeccaOz » 03 Jun 2014, 8:23 pm

Thanks Chronos, I guess if there has to be a list, those breeds would make sense :)
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by vexesus » 04 Jun 2014, 12:17 pm

Aaaaah! New breeds of dog.

I missed the "new" bit on that list.

Still. Seems like a lot of suitable dogs are still not allowed?
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by VICHunter » 04 Jun 2014, 1:17 pm

There is an fuller explanation somewhere on either the DEPI or DSE websites regarding the dog selection.

I don't have a link sorry, just remembering from reading it some time ago.

The two key points though were

1) The dogs must be obedient (which heaps of the breeds you mentioned there are)
2) Pose no threat to wildlife.

Regarding point 2 (and I'm not saying this is fair representation, but I expect it is the logic behind it) a fox terrier couldn't hurt a deer/pig/goat etc. if it wanted too, a German Shepherd potentially could.

Not meaning to highlight Alsatian's there as a potential problem. A well trained one is a top dog.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by VICHunter » 04 Jun 2014, 1:19 pm

tom604 wrote:it maybe that as some dogs can get lost they dont want a german shepherd running around getting hungry


I suspect that's the meat of it.

Anything that's ever been painted as a "dangerous" dog, deservedly or otherwise, is out.

Hunting with something like a Sheppard or Rottweiler is never going be allowed I'd say.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by RoginaJack » 04 Jun 2014, 3:29 pm

What, a Dachshund is an approved breed for deer hunting?

I always thought this breed was developed for ratting and mousing. There's no way I'd be taking a sausage dog in my Dolce Gabbana handbag deer hunting!

Fair go!
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by MeccaOz » 04 Jun 2014, 10:59 pm

I'm a bullmastiff guy ... Yep sometimes the reactions are priceless, but I did notice once with the dogs Ive had, the people who are a little hesitant about them are the ones my dog will sit right next too, laffin
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Warrigul » 05 Jun 2014, 1:56 pm

Rotties are too slow and not inclined to stick.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Warrigul » 06 Jun 2014, 3:40 pm

Chronos wrote:ok, from what i can see this list (added in 2012) is an addition to the "gun dog breed list", adding some companion dogs to the list of "real" gun dogs


A new category – ‘deer hunting
dogs’
Under the previous regulations, only specified gundog breeds and
Beagles and Bloodhounds could be used to hunt Sambar Deer.

The new breeds of ‘deer hunting dogs’ are:
• Border Terrier
• Fox Terrier (smooth)
• Fox Terrier (wire)
• German Hunting Terrier
(Jagd Terrier)
• Jack Russell Terrier
• Finnish Spitz
• Norwegian Elkhound
• Dachshund

reading the entire document it also says

The new regulations maintain the list of 25 gundogs, with the
addition of four more gundog breeds for game birds and deer hunting
(not including Hog Deer). They are:
• Bracco Italiana
• Hungarian Wirehair Viszla
• Lagatto Ramangolo
• Weimaraner (Long haired)
A full list of approved permitted gundog breeds is included at Part 1
of Schedule 5 of the Wildlife (Game) Regulations 2012.

that full list is here

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/ ... /sch5.html


APPROVED DOGS FOR HUNTING

PART 1—GUNDOGS

Bracco Italiano

Brittany Spaniel (Epagneul Breton)

Chesapeake Bay Retriever

Clumber Spaniel

Cocker Spaniel

Cocker Spaniel (American)

Curly Coated Retriever

English Setter

English Springer Spaniel

Field Spaniel

Flat Coated Retriever

German Shorthaired Pointer

German Wirehaired Pointer (Deutsch Drahthaar)

Golden Retriever

Gordon Setter

Hungarian Vizsla

Hungarian Wirehair Vizsla

Irish Red and White Setter

Irish Setter

Irish Water Spaniel

Italian Spinone

Labrador Retriever

Lagotto Romagnolo

Large Munsterlander

Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever

Pointer

Sussex Spaniel

Weimaraner

Weimaraner (longhair)

Welsh Springer Spaniel


then is lists

Bloodhound

Beagle

Harrier


then the new list of additions

Border Terrier

Dachshund

Finnish Spitz

Fox Terrier (smooth)

Fox Terrier (wire)

German Hunting Terrier (Jagd Terrier)

Jack Russell Terrier

Norwegian Elkhound



phew, hope that helps make it crystal clear :lol:

Chronos




Pretty much everything on that list has been specifically bred to hunt, none of them were originally purposed as companion dogs. All are top hunters or gun dogs.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Chronos » 09 Jun 2014, 5:03 pm

Warrigul wrote:Rotties are too slow and not inclined to stick.


I was joking but can't say i've ever seen the need for a fast deer stalking/tracking dog :?

We have a rotty that comes to the deer park where we take our dogs, he's faster than either of our GSP's, a mates Hungarian Vizsla, two kelpies that also come to the park, although the kelpies are only trying to round up the other dogs, not necessary keep up :lol:

Edit: the point really is that most of the other breeds as you say are bread for scent tracking, either ground or air.

The first time our GSP's got close to deer was on a gun dog training and handling day run by AHI here in Sydney, when one of the trainers walked in to the range and put his bag down our two dogs walked over and started trying to stick their noses in his bag.

What's in the bag I asked, some sambar blood in a plastic bottle and a piece of hyde double bagged in plastic. It's bred into them.

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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by 1sikxt » 09 Jun 2014, 6:53 pm

Chronos,

I agree. I have a rottie myself. I'd put up a pic but don't know how.

If you have the right blood lines a rottie would be awesome. A lot of people want big muscle dogs which are slower but if u look back to there origin rotties are very versatile dogs with an awesome nose.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Aster » 09 Jun 2014, 9:44 pm

1sikxt wrote:I'd put up a pic but don't know how.


I can put it up for you if you're stuck mate. Email me it? mail at enoughgun dot com
See you on the firing line.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by 1sikxt » 09 Jun 2014, 10:02 pm

Aster wrote:
1sikxt wrote:I'd put up a pic but don't know how.


I can put it up for you if you're stuck mate. Email me it? mail at enoughgun dot com


Thanks mate just sent them let me no if you get em
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Aster » 10 Jun 2014, 8:53 am

Got 'em. Here they are...

1sikxt's dogs:

1sikxt-rottweiler-1.jpg
1sikxt-rottweiler-1.jpg (45.36 KiB) Viewed 8483 times


1sikxt-rottweiler-2.jpg
1sikxt-rottweiler-2.jpg (77.73 KiB) Viewed 8483 times
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Warrigul » 10 Jun 2014, 11:13 am

Chronos wrote:
Warrigul wrote:Rotties are too slow and not inclined to stick.



We have a rotty that comes to the deer park where we take our dogs, he's faster than either of our GSP's

Chronos


If a rottie outdoes your dogs you are doing something wrong, I have a lot of respect for GSPs and whether on the water or chasing roo onto a line of guns they have always gone hard all day long and don't need much telling. My dogs have always been whatever breed has come along at the time but a mate has always had pointers.

GSPs will exercise all day every day and keep coming back for more. Ten years ago I used to ride my bike and let the dogs run with me on concrete paths to harden their pads ready for the highlands, they used to immediately go and sit next to the gate whenever I turned up. He has a couple of new dogs now and his kids are teenagers who run so his dogs are always fit.

You have to run em hard and often, they love it. Most people who keep them solely as pets seem to overfeed and under work them.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Chronos » 10 Jun 2014, 12:52 pm

Warrigul wrote:If a rottie outdoes your dogs you are doing something wrong, I have a lot of respect for GSPs and whether on the water or chasing roo onto a line of guns they have always gone hard all day long and don't need much telling. My dogs have always been whatever breed has come along at the time but a mate has always had pointers.

GSPs will exercise all day every day and keep coming back for more. Ten years ago I used to ride my bike and let the dogs run with me on concrete paths to harden their pads ready for the highlands, they used to immediately go and sit next to the gate whenever I turned up. He has a couple of new dogs now and his kids are teenagers who run so his dogs are always fit.

You have to run em hard and often, they love it. Most people who keep them solely as pets seem to overfeed and under work them.


If I wanted dogs to tear a**e around the bush crashing into things I'd take my mates whippets.

Over fed? No, under worked definitely. They're city dogs. In the yard all say dog park an hour every second day minimum usually the beach or river on the weekend. They sit around 29-30kg with the taller one a kilo more. You can see 2-3 ribs in summer but they get a bit more meat for dinner now it's colder.

GSP's aren't a Kelpie, they work hard but they are also happy lying on the lounge room floor sleeping. They are a hunters companion, sleeping inside and hunting when required.

I don't care how fast they are, there a scent dog, head up air scenting or head down tracking wounded game and a retriever in stubble or water. They are not a sight hound or a lugging dog.

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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Warrigul » 10 Jun 2014, 1:32 pm

Chronos wrote:
I don't care how fast they are, there a scent dog, head up air scenting or head down tracking wounded game and a retriever in stubble or water. They are not a sight hound or a lugging dog.

Chronos


I don't know how much you have actually hunted with dogs.

I have no idea what a lugging dog(I am assuming a pig dog? We don't have pigs down here) is but a GSP is excellent with small game and will flush, pull and pin wounded roo and drive game in addition to being a useful quail and duck dog. From what I have seen they are only limited to what their owners are capable of and Brians dogs have often hunted alongside whatever has been in the pack at the time(mainly beagles and hounds) I tend to end up with making do with whatever turns up on my doorstep, parts of litters than no one wants or strays even one that was just a pet but ended up a great hunter, I have never had my own GSP but have shot many roo(wallaby down here) in the bush over the top of his two.

Very intelligent and versatile is a GSP, here in TAS dogs that can do everything are highly valued and I haven't seen anything(barring going down rabbit holes) that a GSP can't do.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Chronos » 10 Jun 2014, 2:30 pm

Warrigul wrote:I don't know how much you have actually hunted with dogs.

I have no idea what a lugging dog(I am assuming a pig dog? We don't have pigs down here) is but a GSP is excellent with small game and will flush, pull and pin wounded roo and drive game in addition to being a useful quail and duck dog. From what I have seen they are only limited to what their owners are capable of and Brians dogs have often hunted alongside whatever has been in the pack at the time(mainly beagles and hounds) I tend to end up with making do with whatever turns up on my doorstep, parts of litters than no one wants or strays even one that was just a pet but ended up a great hunter, I have never had my own GSP but have shot many roo(wallaby down here) in the bush over the top of his two.

Very intelligent and versatile is a GSP, here in TAS dogs that can do everything are highly valued and I haven't seen anything(barring going down rabbit holes) that a GSP can't do.


Just trying to stay in topic, the OP is asking about deer hunting dogs as per the regs for Victoria. Not driven roo culling.

Don't suppose it would have mattered what I posted, you'd have disagreed with it regardless

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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by Warrigul » 10 Jun 2014, 4:08 pm

Chronos wrote:Don't suppose it would have mattered what I posted, you'd have disagreed with it regardless


I only post what I know from experience, if it happens to disagree with what you read on the internet then that is life.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by mchughcb » 24 Feb 2016, 7:51 pm

RoginaJack wrote:What, a Dachshund is an approved breed for deer hunting?

I always thought this breed was developed for ratting and mousing. There's no way I'd be taking a sausage dog in my Dolce Gabbana handbag deer hunting!

Fair go!


They were breed for badger hunting. I presented to management at Spring St to get them approved. The idea was that they and other smaller breeds weren't going to pose animal welfare issues lugging deer. Yes sausage dogs hunt sambar and fallow alright, and foxes and rabbits and hares and cats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57k-5sfBSzg
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by mchughcb » 24 Feb 2016, 9:22 pm

Where the dog found it. Where I shot it.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by mchughcb » 24 Feb 2016, 9:27 pm

Where the dogs put it up and tracked it into my mate who was waiting.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by mchughcb » 24 Feb 2016, 9:30 pm

This sambar hind was lost and then found by the dogs.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by mchughcb » 24 Feb 2016, 9:32 pm

This fallow spiker and his mate were tracked by the dogs and then taken.
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Re: What decided the gun dog breeds?

Post by mchughcb » 24 Feb 2016, 9:34 pm

RoginaJack wrote:What, a Dachshund is an approved breed for deer hunting?

I always thought this breed was developed for ratting and mousing. There's no way I'd be taking a sausage dog in my Dolce Gabbana handbag deer hunting!

Fair go!


Rats? Yeah, they kill rats alright.

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