Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem really?

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Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem really?

Post by roob » 10 Nov 2014, 2:21 pm

Hi guys,

I read a few comments that weren't making much sense to be about over expansion due to being too close to your game.

Talk of .277 or .308 being used inside 100m expanding too fast on targets and breaking apart.

I wouldn't have thought there was such a thing as too close? Even if it expands faster than expected it'll be hitting heaps harder due to the shorter range.

They can't be bouncing off can they... Surely anything you shoot with a .308 at that distance is going down regardless?
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Aussier » 10 Nov 2014, 2:22 pm

roob wrote:They can't be bouncing off can they...


Only from deer which are negatively magnetized. But I don't see many of them around.
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by on_one_wheel » 10 Nov 2014, 4:09 pm

Its a problem on large game, if the projectile expands too fast it might only wound the animial rather than kill it.
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Westy » 10 Nov 2014, 4:28 pm

If your using a 308 your problem might not be bouncing off but blowing through before they get time to expand??? Have seen this both on pigs and deer at close range with 168 grns and the animal runs off until it bleeds out sometimes you can have to much horsepower in a 308 hence that's why this old prick uses a 6.5 from a little futher out!!!LMFAO
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Oldbloke » 10 Nov 2014, 5:06 pm

Depemds mainly on:
Speed of impact
weight of bullet
what it hits. eg heavy bone or muscle
construction of bullet.
There are a lot of variables.

Its mainly a big game issue, but if you are using bullets at the cheaper end, eg not nosler petition but traditional designs, be a little more careful about bullet placement. Dont do texas heart shots ( risky if you ask me anyway ) and perhaps shoulder at very close range. Im sure other members with more experience than me will provide additional Info.
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by RoginaJack » 10 Nov 2014, 5:50 pm

I'd suggest that it would be more a case of poor choice of projectile/bullet design and construction than anything else.
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Jack V » 10 Nov 2014, 7:03 pm

At the closer range you have more velocity which means the bullet will expand quicker on any target that is strong enough to expand the bullet at all .
How the bullet is constructed is part of the equation also.

Light thin jacketed bullets with soft un-bonded cores at high velocity might explode before they enter a certain target and expend all the energy on the surface of the target . There by leaving a surface wound that possibly is not lethal or not quickly lethal or humane.

You will be surprised how light a target needs to be to blow up such a bullet at high velocities especially when the thin jacket may be weak and the barrel friction may heat the bullet unduly making blow up more likely. In some extreme situations where many things work together a blade of grass can do it.

Goats with wet thick fur can do it . Generally a 308 with a decent weight bullet like 130 grain and up , at 308 velocities will not have any trouble penetrating the average Aussie game at average hunting ranges or close range. Most of the problem centres around small calibre light varmint bullets being pushed too hard .
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by tom604 » 10 Nov 2014, 7:34 pm

not all that cluey on this :oops: so if i shoot a rabbit at 50 mtrs with my 223 loaded with hornady zombie killers would it just pencil through or give it a flesh wound :lol: :lol: sorry :oops: i guess your talking about shooting bigger critters with smallish bullets :oops: :lol:
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Westy » 10 Nov 2014, 7:38 pm

tom604 wrote:not all that cluey on this :oops: so if i shoot a rabbit at 50 mtrs with my 223 loaded with hornady zombie killers would it just pencil through or give it a flesh wound :lol: :lol: sorry :oops: i guess your talking about shooting bigger critters with smallish bullets :oops: :lol:

Hey Tom just Aim a little low like a inch and splash it with some shrapnel :D :D :D It might just depend if that rabbit is a zombie or not???? :shock: :? :roll:

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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by RoginaJack » 10 Nov 2014, 7:42 pm

Jack V wrote:At the closer range you have more velocity which means the bullet will expand quicker on any target that is strong enough to expand the bullet at all...


Sorry, Jack V but you lost me after the 1st sentence! I've never read so much gobbley-gook ever...
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Westy » 10 Nov 2014, 8:35 pm

Here are a few picks from the last trip to St George ,this young boar was shot by Oldskool with a tikka 308 at 100m as it ran away (Texas Style) you can see how it travelled the length of the pig and had time to open up Remington Corelok. This same Guy had 4 other shots right to left on all 4 Pigs all confirmed hits but they all passed through and just kept on running, the pill was to hard and refused to open up not doing the job it was intended to do!!!!! :o :( :? :roll: See how it bounced off ???? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by newsteadvic » 10 Nov 2014, 8:40 pm

Are you confusing expansion and weight retention with fragmentation?

Ideally the projectile expands and retains mass. The caveat being the solid steel or steel jacket used for some thick skinned african game like elephant, designed to not expand but penetrate through thick skin and bone also maybe the modern hydrostatic monlithics however I have no experience of these?

Depending on velocity and projectile construction there is worries that some projectiles will either not open up at all or fragment on the skin/muscle of the animal and not penetrate. This is the background to velocity suggestions for premium hunting projectiles like the Woodleigh range.
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Jack V » 11 Nov 2014, 8:26 am

tom604 wrote:not all that cluey on this :oops: so if i shoot a rabbit at 50 mtrs with my 223 loaded with hornady zombie killers would it just pencil through or give it a flesh wound :lol: :lol: sorry :oops: i guess your talking about shooting bigger critters with smallish bullets :oops: :lol:


A small animal like a rabbit will just get blown apart by even a 223 using fast expanding bullets at close range . It don't take much to penetrate a rabbit but it is technically possible for a high velocity small calibre weakly constructed projectile to blow up on the outside of a rabbit but the shock would still kill it anyway .

As the game gets larger it can survive the initial shock and just suffer a surface or shallow wound.

Terminal ballistics is a huge subject and very complicated when you start considering all the myriad of different bullet styles , weights , calibres , potential velocities and potential targets in the mix .
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Jack V » 11 Nov 2014, 8:40 am

RoginaJack wrote:Sorry, Jack V but you lost me after the 1st sentence! I've never read so much gobbley-gook ever...


Sorry you don't understand .

Bullet manufacturers do a lot of work to save us from making mistakes and tailor their projectiles to do certain jobs well .

As alluded too by others they tend to have a velocity range where they work best . A bullet has a starting velocity say 3000 fps and at long range it might be down to less than 500 fps as it nose dives into the dirt . You can't expect the bullet to exhibit exactly the same penetration and expansion characteristics over that entire velocity range . At 3000 fps it's going to give good expansion or even too much expansion but at 500 fps it may just bounce off pigs shield .

Somewhere in that range may be the perfect velocity for that bullet on that target. However we don't deal in perfect scenarios all the time in hunting so the bullets performance will be good enough over a fairly wide range of it's trajectory which will be the effective range of the combination.
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Warrigul » 11 Nov 2014, 8:54 am

Jack V wrote:A small animal like a rabbit will just get blown apart by even a 223 using fast expanding bullets at close range . It don't take much to penetrate a rabbit but it is technically possible for a high velocity small calibre weakly constructed projectile to blow up on the outside of a rabbit but the shock would still kill it anyway .
As the game gets larger it can survive the initial shock and just suffer a surface or shallow wound.
Terminal ballistics is a huge subject and very complicated when you start considering all the myriad of different bullet styles , weights , calibres , potential velocities and potential targets in the mix .


You know I would love to actually see a picture of an animal has suffered only a surface wound from a high velocity cartridge, we did it with a heap of old work boots filled with silicone(err, there were a few tubes go missing in an unexplained way from the workshop store once) and all we had at the end was a heap of old silicone filled workboots with holes through them.

I know it is not conclusive but the high velocity stuff seems to drill right through at close range, at 100 it was far more damaging but they still went through. The varmint grenades were a different story but that was all. At 200 with the .243 with the plastic tips it was impressive but the steel jacked .308 still drilled a hole.

I wonder if some of these exploded rabbit heads are because the projectile actually disintergrated or was it the shock of the projectile going through and perhaps bone fragments that did the damage. I know with a head shot rabbit and a .22 it is often the brain trying to get out that does the damage not the pill fragmenting.

More work needs to be done I reckon.
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by sha » 11 Nov 2014, 9:00 am

This might shed some light.

This is from the Nosler website on their Ballistic Tip Varmint bullets and mushrooming at difference velocities. Note the 3,000 fps velocity one.

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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by sha » 11 Nov 2014, 9:00 am

Similar results at different velocities for some of their other bullets shown too. Ballistic Silver Tip and others.
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Warrigul » 11 Nov 2014, 9:04 am

But what are they actually firing into?

You would think a ballistic tip fired at a boot at 25m out of a .243 would disappear if they were blowing up on animal hide.

I might have to make up some mythbusters ballistic gell and get busy.
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Lorgar » 11 Nov 2014, 9:11 am

Oldbloke wrote:construction of bullet.

RoginaJack wrote:I'd suggest that it would be more a case of poor choice of projectile/bullet design and construction than anything else.


Just speaking for the one bullet here, but I've pulled 180gr Nosler Accubonds out of the back of tree stumps at 50m and their weight retention and expansion is still great.

A nice little mushroom and no fragmentation after going through a foot of wood and being pulled out on the other side.

No such thing as too close for them. In my experience.
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Manimal » 11 Nov 2014, 9:13 am

Oldbloke wrote:Dont do texas heart shots


Hunters in Texas must love that they've been coined in that phrase :lol:
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Post by Westy » 11 Nov 2014, 9:38 am

Well you know the saying only thing to come from Texas is steers and quires !!!! :lol: :D :lol:
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Jack V » 11 Nov 2014, 4:14 pm

Warrigul wrote:You know I would love to actually see a picture of an animal has suffered only a surface wound from a high velocity cartridge, we did it with a heap of old work boots filled with silicone(err, there were a few tubes go missing in an unexplained way from the workshop store once) and all we had at the end was a heap of old silicone filled workboots with holes through them.

I know it is not conclusive but the high velocity stuff seems to drill right through at close range, at 100 it was far more damaging but they still went through. The varmint grenades were a different story but that was all. At 200 with the .243 with the plastic tips it was impressive but the steel jacked .308 still drilled a hole.

I wonder if some of these exploded rabbit heads are because the projectile actually disintergrated or was it the shock of the projectile going through and perhaps bone fragments that did the damage. I know with a head shot rabbit and a .22 it is often the brain trying to get out that does the damage not the pill fragmenting.

More work needs to be done I reckon.


Exactly , the varmint grenades are the weakly constructed bullet we are talking about . A boot full of silicone is not exactly a hard target either .

What you are doing is trying to apply what is an extreme case to the average bullet and that will not work. It is even possible for a bullet to blow up in mid air without striking anything I have seen some Bergers do it . It can be traced back to jacket failure due to popped or cracked jackets and or barrel conditions and excessive velocity for the condition . There is about a dozen variables in this issue that can all affect terminal ballistics in some way .

As I said before the bullet companies take into account most of these potential variables so their bullet is suitable for a certain job .

One example is Berger has redesigned some of it's jackets to a thicker stronger jacket to resist blow up from cut rifled barrels .

The trick is we have to buy the right bullet for the job . Not always easy I know.
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by sha » 12 Nov 2014, 1:07 pm

Warrigul wrote:I know it is not conclusive but the high velocity stuff seems to drill right through at close range, at 100 it was far more damaging but they still went through.


Even though it shoots through, if wonder if it's not still adding extra damage due to the extra force it goes through with when closer?

Must send a bigger shockwave or whatever through the target with the extra velocity.

Trading one type of kill for another is maybe all that happens?
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Jack V » 14 Nov 2014, 10:46 am

Higher impact velocity would equate to extra shock wave with penetration and wound channel aside. To make any meaningful test you would have to section a target something like ballistic gel and measure the wound channel. It is not all that easy to judge a wound channels size and shape in a dead animal autopsy. I know I have tried.

You can have two bullets go through a target and appear to do the same thing but if one expands and the other don't then the wound channel shape will be different inside even though on the outside it looks about the same, usually the bullet that does expand will leave a bigger exit hole. The target could drop just as quick in both cases depending on what it is and where it got hit making it seem that they do the same job. However the bullet that gets inside and then expands reliably and stops just short of exiting will be the more reliable killer as it has given up all it's energy into the target.
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Re: Over expansion at short range. How much of a problem rea

Post by Carter » 15 Nov 2014, 10:46 am

Jack V wrote:However the bullet that gets inside and then expands reliably and stops just short of exiting will be the more reliable killer as it has given up all it's energy into the target.


That's the decider. If it sticks inside 100% of the potential energy was transferred into the animal, if it passes through it still had energy to do damage with but took it out the other side instead.
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