head shots vs heart/lung

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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 24 May 2018, 7:26 am

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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigfellascott » 24 May 2018, 1:43 pm

bigrich wrote:
grandadbushy wrote:Its not a matter of which is best head or heart/lung shot I think all the shots mentioned have their place in hunting
It all comes down to what gun you have at the time what you are shooting the distance from the animal how comfortable you are taking the shot
any obstructions wind and probably many more
I head shoot when it's close ,clear ,still and i'm comfortable with doing so
When they are further out I heart/lung shoot to capture an ethical kill
I've never worried about pushing the limits like some people my aim is to put the animal on the ground as quick and as ethical as can be done
The saying is egos are free and worth nothing , accuracy comes with practice and worth doing


As usual GDB, you get to the heart and bottom line of the subject


Yep just good ol commonsense at the end of the day, sadly it's not as common as it used to be and I fear it will only get worse with the dumbing down of society. :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 24 May 2018, 6:23 pm

bigfellascott wrote:
bigrich wrote:
grandadbushy wrote:Its not a matter of which is best head or heart/lung shot I think all the shots mentioned have their place in hunting
It all comes down to what gun you have at the time what you are shooting the distance from the animal how comfortable you are taking the shot
any obstructions wind and probably many more
I head shoot when it's close ,clear ,still and i'm comfortable with doing so
When they are further out I heart/lung shoot to capture an ethical kill
I've never worried about pushing the limits like some people my aim is to put the animal on the ground as quick and as ethical as can be done
The saying is egos are free and worth nothing , accuracy comes with practice and worth doing


As usual GDB, you get to the heart and bottom line of the subject


Yep just good ol commonsense at the end of the day, sadly it's not as common as it used to be and I fear it will only get worse with the dumbing down of society. :thumbsup:


sad but true BFS, sad but true :(
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Gwion » 25 May 2018, 9:50 am

brett1868 wrote:
Gwion wrote:
brett1868 wrote:Funny enough, the govt fella mandates that Giant Bunnies be head shot...If its good enough for Skippy then it should be good enough for Bambi. Each situation will be different so skill and good judgement will be key to shot placement.


Very good point. From memory, the gov't fella also mandates that pro giant bunny shooters pass an accuracy test before being issued a permit. Also suggests that any tag permit properties get shooters to do an accuracy test before letting them loose on the giant bunnies.


I had to do an "accuracy" test to get approved to join the SSAA Farmers Assist program (WOFTAM). I think it was 5 into an inch with a rimfire @ 50m, I managed .3" cause it's not hard with the right tools. I've shot once with a few guys that I haven't shot with since, purely because they lacked good judgement on taking the shot. Might just be the exuberance of youth making bad decisions, but I don't agree that the animal should suffer for it. I've shot giant bunnies out past 1200m but everything was perfect and I've not taken shots @ 50m cause I deemed it too risky. Probably my point is that it all comes down to good judgement, the equipment used and the right mindset of the shooter.


Exactly. The people who take a shot and leave wounded animals are lack in one or all of these departments...
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Gwion » 25 May 2018, 9:53 am

grandadbushy wrote:Its not a matter of which is best head or heart/lung shot I think all the shots mentioned have their place in hunting
It all comes down to what gun you have at the time what you are shooting the distance from the animal how comfortable you are taking the shot
any obstructions wind and probably many more
I head shoot when it's close ,clear ,still and i'm comfortable with doing so
When they are further out I heart/lung shoot to capture an ethical kill
I've never worried about pushing the limits like some people my aim is to put the animal on the ground as quick and as ethical as can be done
The saying is egos are free and worth nothing , accuracy comes with practice and worth doing


:thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigpete » 27 May 2018, 1:54 pm

I'll say this. I'd much rather take a heart/lung shot in a hunting scenario as its a lot easier to make happen and the critter is just as dead in the end. Spotlighting or shooting from a rested position I'll virtually always head shot
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 28 May 2018, 7:50 pm

bigpete wrote:
Stix wrote:I think if you can head shoot then do it...especially if you're capable of a brain shot...!!
Know & stick to your limits though. :thumbsup:

ONLY if you're capable of a brain shot. Anywhere else leaves a wounded animal to die slowly


bigpete wrote:I'll say this. I'd much rather take a heart/lung shot in a hunting scenario as its a lot easier to make happen and the critter is just as dead in the end. Spotlighting or shooting from a rested position I'll virtually always head shot


bigpete wrote:ONLY if you're capable of a brain shot. Anywhere else leaves a wounded animal to die slowly


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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigpete » 28 May 2018, 8:08 pm

Yeah yeah,I mean brain shoot obviously
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by marksman » 28 May 2018, 9:26 pm

bigpete wrote:I'll say this. I'd much rather take a heart/lung shot in a hunting scenario as its a lot easier to make happen and the critter is just as dead in the end. Spotlighting or shooting from a rested position I'll virtually always head shot


not having a crack at you bigpete
but you have to wait till the end after a heart/lung shot, most animals shot in the heart/lung will get up and run or not even drop just bolt, so if they have run into thick bush try and track or get a dog, I have shot a heap of fallow that are crippled from bad shot placement, some with scares from being wounded, projectiles under the skin and I have killed some that when scun you could see holes where they have been blasted with a shot gun and the skin has not yet repaired itself, in this area we blame poachers from the big smoke shooting off the road,
I do chest shoot or neck shoot animals but would rather pass up a meat animal and be at a comfortable distance where I can brain shoot from a rested position or get closer to take the shot and take the whole animal with me, I feed a lot of pensioners with game meat and they love it, the cocky's like the idea of no waste, I bring back the bones for there dogs but do not feed the dogs gone wild that is a big problem for them
each to there own though, everyone should know what they are capable of, practice is the key where ever you place your shot
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigpete » 28 May 2018, 9:52 pm

And I've seen plenty of people take head shots where they've blown the nose or jaw off animals and they've run off into.the scrub to die of starvation.
As for chest shot animals,yes they often run,yes you do have to learn how to track. Part of being a decent hunter IMO
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by brett1868 » 28 May 2018, 11:08 pm

What about ass shots? I've shot a number of cats, dogs and foxes square up the chocolate starfish, is this ethical? :)
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 28 May 2018, 11:39 pm

Graphic image warning....



Personally i believe there IS a difference between a head shot & a brain shot, & times when just a "headshot" & not a "brainshot" is perfectly acceptable & i am in practice the biggest preacher of a humane kill i know.

As with ALL facets of hunting, there are variable factors that dictate whether a head or brain or heart/lung or shoulder shot is taken (& yes i deem a shoulder shot different too-sometimes im try to pop the heart/polverise lungs, sometimes i cant so need to bust a shoulder).
Variables such as the target (for example rabbit/goat etc), the range, be it short or long range (& long range as defined by the individual whos finger is on the trigger-that may be 40yds for some & 400 for another), & also equally important is the cartridge being used.

Forgive the graphics, but i think they help explain my point...here are some examples...

This was a "headshot" (ive posted before) over the bonnet on a heavy bag & also using a rear bag. POA was middle of the head- not the brain, at 280 odd yds-my longest shot i played for so far with the 204). The rabbit got smacked to the ground, lifted its head off the ground for one full second then slumped & lights out...its legs & body never moved.
I consider this a humane kill from a headshot.
2018-05-28 20.18.59.jpg
Headshot @ 280 odd yds with 204
2018-05-28 20.18.59.jpg (545.32 KiB) Viewed 5904 times


The exit side clearly shows it was not a brain shot & was a "shock" kill, as with a heart/lung shot.
2018-05-28 20.19.45.jpg
280yd 204 Exit wound
2018-05-28 20.19.45.jpg (554.4 KiB) Viewed 5904 times


This is the exit wound of a played for & easy brain shot at 100yds with the 222 rimmed & a 40 grain BT.
2018-05-28 20.24.42.jpg
100yd brain shot 222R
2018-05-28 20.24.42.jpg (528.08 KiB) Viewed 5904 times


This was just a headshot @ 80 yds from a quick jump out the car & throw the rifle over the pillar of the windscreen.
Tension on the trigger, reticle in the middle of head & drop the sear...
2018-05-28 20.15.33.jpg
80yd headshot
2018-05-28 20.15.33.jpg (666.07 KiB) Viewed 5904 times

I knew the round would do this,but i wouldnt do it with my .22lr.

I could post many examples of each, but all these shots have been taken with many factors taken into account, including the cartridge.
I wouldnt take a head shot on a goat at 280 yds leaning over the windscreen pillar.

I did say "know your limits & stick to them"...& by your limits, i mean every factor in that given shot.

None of us are perfect...my last trip out i wounded my 3rd fox in 25 yrs, not something im terribly proud of, but compared to some of the fukn d1cks that gloat on yoochoob, i think my wounded fox statistics demonstrate my ethics.

Heres one ive posted before too, but what the hell..
Not one of these knew what hit them or moved an inch once hit...a combo of head & brain shots.
2017-12-18 00.37.42.jpg
All head shot, 22lr or 204.
2017-12-18 00.37.42.jpg (550.36 KiB) Viewed 5904 times


:)
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Archie » 29 May 2018, 7:09 am

I think bunnies are a bit different, especially when you're hitting them with something with same muzzle energy as a .223. Realistically they aren't getting up no matter what you hit.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 29 May 2018, 8:12 am

bigpete wrote:And I've seen plenty of people take head shots where they've blown the nose or jaw off animals and they've run off into.the scrub to die of starvation.
As for chest shot animals,yes they often run,yes you do have to learn how to track. Part of being a decent hunter IMO


This is my point of view also big Pete . Maybe when my skills and experience are higher, I’ll take the type of shots stix can. That’s some fine shootin’ Stix. :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 29 May 2018, 8:16 am

I’ll just add I try to take more than “ enough gun” . 6.5x55 with 156gr , had one poor shot recently but the goat was anchored and quickly finished
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigfellascott » 29 May 2018, 8:16 am

brett1868 wrote:What about ass shots? I've shot a number of cats, dogs and foxes square up the chocolate starfish, is this ethical? :)


Yep it works for me too, none have run away and all bang flops so I say yes! :D
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by marksman » 29 May 2018, 10:11 am

brett1868 wrote:What about ass shots? I've shot a number of cats, dogs and foxes square up the chocolate starfish, is this ethical? :)


I dont have a problem with it as long as they are dead :thumbsup: texas heart shot, not going to eat a dog or fox

bigpete wrote:And I've seen plenty of people take head shots where they've blown the nose or jaw off animals and they've run off into.the scrub to die of starvation.
As for chest shot animals,yes they often run,yes you do have to learn how to track. Part of being a decent hunter IMO


:lol: :lol: :lol:
moral to this story is get your gear in order and become a better shot, you don't have to take the shot
you know your capability's :drinks:

good shooting stix :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigpete » 29 May 2018, 11:08 am

Well,all I can say is,everyone will have a different opinion and different skill level and different experiences. One thing I seem to be noticing is that most people,myself included,who make regular head shots are shooting from some kind of platform such as a car or bipod. That's a bit different from walking around actually hunting.
Also,matching calibres and bullets to the game being hunted is just as,if not more important IMO for good on the spot kills.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Daddybang » 29 May 2018, 3:49 pm

bigpete wrote:Well,all I can say is,everyone will have a different opinion and different skill level and different experiences. One thing I seem to be noticing is that most people,myself included,who make regular head shots are shooting from some kind of platform such as a car or bipod. That's a bit different from walking around actually hunting.
Also,matching calibres and bullets to the game being hunted is just as,if not more important IMO for good on the spot kills.



This▲▲▲+1 :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by marksman » 29 May 2018, 4:10 pm

bigpete wrote:Well,all I can say is,everyone will have a different opinion and different skill level and different experiences. One thing I seem to be noticing is that most people,myself included,who make regular head shots are shooting from some kind of platform such as a car or bipod. That's a bit different from walking around actually hunting.
Also,matching calibres and bullets to the game being hunted is just as,if not more important IMO for good on the spot kills.


I totally agree and have taken out a few people who are too good to shoot off a steady rest that should give it away and buy a shotgun and they were told that
but hey varmint shooting off a rest is still hunting, taking a shot off a steady platform and head shooting is still hunting
just a different type off hunting than stalking, I do it and get a s**t ton more in the freezer because I do :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Oldbloke » 29 May 2018, 6:02 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Archie wrote:I don't like headshots. I understand why people do them, I don't. 4 reasons:

1/ Most decent shooters can probably hit a head at similar distances to a reliable heart lung shot. But heart/lung is a bigger target in most cases (angle, ribs etc can complicate that a bit). Bigger target = more margin for error. I like margin for error in imperfect shooting conditions, and field shooting is always imperfect. Never a bench when you need one.



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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 29 May 2018, 7:45 pm

Thanks for kind words bigrich & marksman.
Although it wasnt meant to be a brag fest.

I was trying to knock this sudden rush of exaggerated ethics of " ONLY head shoot if its a brain shot" hooha on its head.
And also say & demonstrate that when i said 'know & stick to your limits' i mean "everything" involved in the shot, not just range...but as i said cartridge as well.. .cos in the right circumstances, some animals aint goin anywhere from a plain ol' "headshot"..

I know a bloke that will head shoot goats at 100 off the shoulder with a 308...ive stood next to him while he did it....a very experienced & confident hunter & obviously a good shot...!

And big rich, you'd probably be surprised at what you could hit in the field. :thumbsup:
Its all about confidence, being concious of your trigger & knowing your rifle & cartridge. Confidence in range as well, cos 100yds in a paddock with nothing to relate too looks a sh1t load further than 100yds in a metro street...
But a big thing is know &/or learn how to tame your phisiology when a shot presents itself in that paddock.
There are ways to test yourself to a certain point at the range or target shooting on a property.
And 99% of what i shoot is from a rested position.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Apollo » 30 May 2018, 7:10 pm

I was asked by "Stix" to make a comment here BUT... I'm not prepared to enter the debate at this time until I re-read EVERY comment that has been made for and against. I've been shooting for near 60 years, many calibres on small creatures..ie about the size of a Grey Roo... nothing fancy in creature size.

I don't ever or ever want to "shoot from the hip or shoulder" as the word goes... it's always from a rested rifle. Bang Plonk...
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 30 May 2018, 7:43 pm

Stix wrote:Thanks for kind words bigrich & marksman.
Although it wasnt meant to be a brag fest.

I was trying to knock this sudden rush of exaggerated ethics of " ONLY head shoot if its a brain shot" hooha on its head.
And also say & demonstrate that when i said 'know & stick to your limits' i mean "everything" involved in the shot, not just range...but as i said cartridge as well.. .cos in the right circumstances, some animals aint goin anywhere from a plain ol' "headshot"..

I know a bloke that will head shoot goats at 100 off the shoulder with a 308...ive stood next to him while he did it....a very experienced & confident hunter & obviously a good shot...!

And big rich, you'd probably be surprised at what you could hit in the field. :thumbsup:
Its all about confidence, being concious of your trigger & knowing your rifle & cartridge. Confidence in range as well, cos 100yds in a paddock with nothing to relate too looks a sh1t load further than 100yds in a metro street...
But a big thing is know &/or learn how to tame your phisiology when a shot presents itself in that paddock.
There are ways to test yourself to a certain point at the range or target shooting on a property.
And 99% of what i shoot is from a rested position.


rested position ? last hunt i was on i was huffing and puffing to get into position to sight up a goat mob. in a rocky timbered ridge line. got a good shot of at a goat walking at around 60- 80 yards. good shot too, went in behind the left shoulder and came out right side of chest. hit major bones and the goat was out quick. :drinks: practice, practice, ay stix ? lot's more tuscan rabbit dishes and goat curries before i get to be a great shot. the sacrifices i make for me hobbies . :lol: :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 30 May 2018, 8:05 pm

Yes mate from a rested position im talking about...
Only time im off the shoulder is with 12g on bunnies or a stalk up to a mob of goats.
Ah maybe the very occasional dumb fox that pops its head up suddenly wondering what the bright light is 20 yds from the car if spotlighting.

And im lucky to hit a double decker bus after a heavy hike up a mountain...may as well chuck rocks until the heart rate is back down a touch & get some oxygen back in those veins...!!!
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Bigjobss » 30 May 2018, 8:06 pm

The half dozen sambar Ive taken I have had between 3-8 seconds to take the shot, no headshots or rest option for me, its the nature of stalking sambar in the hills :drinks: best I can hope for is dropping a knee and is why I practice at the range offhand, seated, prone etc but not on a bench.
Fallow Ive been able to snipe a couple, they seem to give you a bit more time.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 30 May 2018, 8:52 pm

Stix wrote:Yes mate from a rested position im talking about...
Only time im off the shoulder is with 12g on bunnies or a stalk up to a mob of goats.
Ah maybe the very occasional dumb fox that pops its head up suddenly wondering what the bright light is 20 yds from the car if spotlighting.

And im lucky to hit a double decker bus after a heavy hike up a mountain...may as well chuck rocks until the heart rate is back down a touch & get some oxygen back in those veins...!!!


i have done some shots where i've sighted up over a car bonnet or propped against a tree.longest shot i've taken so far was a billy standing on a big boulder at at least 140 yards, one shot through right side of chest, exited just before rear leg. 6.5's have great penetration ( probably too good, gotta start hand loading 140 nosler partitions ). makes it bloody interesting stalking/chasing them up. paper targets at the range don't get twitchy and run :lol: :lol: :lol: :drinks:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Apollo » 30 May 2018, 10:05 pm

Goat shooting (even a big Billy) with a 6.5mm at short range (140y) really with a 140gr. I've gotta give up thinking reality. Wow, overkill by miles.

I'm getting too old. I thought a 6mm 90gr at 200 plus was a medium range idea and mostly a typical much lesser calibre range.

I'm not a professional shooter, I just shoot vermin about every second day (morning or night) and it's use anything handy to steady with and make 200m plus shots from Rabbits to rather large Grey Grasshoppers. Crows are fun at 300m plus with a light 70gr 6mm and no. I have no I don't aim for a head shot but then there isn't much left to figure out where the bullet hit.

The question of "Head Shot vs Heart/Lung" well that depends on what you are shooting and at what distance. But, the big factor is how experienced you are and I'm reading here a lot of inexperience in comments. Heart/Lung shots tend a fraction to be caused by shooters that do not have the confidence to make a head shot and/or don't have the correct gear/calibre. Don't know..!!

Oh, sorry... I think I had some comment in mind about the "Head" vs "Brain" shot... Hmm, same difference with anything I use. Aim eg on a Grey Roo just below the eyes and hit there...that's a head shot that eg with a .204R at 150m is what entry hole...but nothing left of the opposite side of the skull...36gr Varmint Grenade.

If you are going to argue about either or not of the two topics then you need to add a lot of circumstances into which shot you take and why against the experience you have or know for certain the person taking the shot has.

Target shooters, especially long range target shooters generally are the best long range hunters/varminters and one of Australia's best target shooters very much enjoys his long distance varmint/hunting.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by brett1868 » 30 May 2018, 10:17 pm

A lot of my shots are done prone from the tray of the Rattler using a bipod and sand bags, everything has been ranged and a dope card prepared. I'm too old and broken for stalking in the bush so I just sit and wait for the fur to wander into range these days. If I'm feeling right and all the variables are aligned I'll possibly take a long shot if appropriately equipped, my usual choice of caliber is either the 375Cheytac with a 350gr JHP or the 416 Barrett with a 450gr JHP for this type of shooting. Both cartridges are more then capable of detonating the chest cavity of the local pest animals out to the property boundary. Much will also depend on how much and recent game / pest shooting you've been doing, nothing beats trigger time for improving the shooting skills.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Bigjobss » 30 May 2018, 10:24 pm

brett1868 wrote:I just sit and wait for the fur to wander into range these days.

My preffered tactic when I used to go bar hopping.
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