head shots vs heart/lung

Game hunting and large prey. Deer stalking, hunting with hounds. Boar, pigs etc., large prey, culling, hunting large feral animals.

Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Daddybang » 29 May 2018, 3:49 pm

bigpete wrote:Well,all I can say is,everyone will have a different opinion and different skill level and different experiences. One thing I seem to be noticing is that most people,myself included,who make regular head shots are shooting from some kind of platform such as a car or bipod. That's a bit different from walking around actually hunting.
Also,matching calibres and bullets to the game being hunted is just as,if not more important IMO for good on the spot kills.



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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by marksman » 29 May 2018, 4:10 pm

bigpete wrote:Well,all I can say is,everyone will have a different opinion and different skill level and different experiences. One thing I seem to be noticing is that most people,myself included,who make regular head shots are shooting from some kind of platform such as a car or bipod. That's a bit different from walking around actually hunting.
Also,matching calibres and bullets to the game being hunted is just as,if not more important IMO for good on the spot kills.


I totally agree and have taken out a few people who are too good to shoot off a steady rest that should give it away and buy a shotgun and they were told that
but hey varmint shooting off a rest is still hunting, taking a shot off a steady platform and head shooting is still hunting
just a different type off hunting than stalking, I do it and get a s**t ton more in the freezer because I do :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Oldbloke » 29 May 2018, 6:02 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Archie wrote:I don't like headshots. I understand why people do them, I don't. 4 reasons:

1/ Most decent shooters can probably hit a head at similar distances to a reliable heart lung shot. But heart/lung is a bigger target in most cases (angle, ribs etc can complicate that a bit). Bigger target = more margin for error. I like margin for error in imperfect shooting conditions, and field shooting is always imperfect. Never a bench when you need one.



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+ what bigpete said
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 29 May 2018, 7:45 pm

Thanks for kind words bigrich & marksman.
Although it wasnt meant to be a brag fest.

I was trying to knock this sudden rush of exaggerated ethics of " ONLY head shoot if its a brain shot" hooha on its head.
And also say & demonstrate that when i said 'know & stick to your limits' i mean "everything" involved in the shot, not just range...but as i said cartridge as well.. .cos in the right circumstances, some animals aint goin anywhere from a plain ol' "headshot"..

I know a bloke that will head shoot goats at 100 off the shoulder with a 308...ive stood next to him while he did it....a very experienced & confident hunter & obviously a good shot...!

And big rich, you'd probably be surprised at what you could hit in the field. :thumbsup:
Its all about confidence, being concious of your trigger & knowing your rifle & cartridge. Confidence in range as well, cos 100yds in a paddock with nothing to relate too looks a sh1t load further than 100yds in a metro street...
But a big thing is know &/or learn how to tame your phisiology when a shot presents itself in that paddock.
There are ways to test yourself to a certain point at the range or target shooting on a property.
And 99% of what i shoot is from a rested position.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Apollo » 30 May 2018, 7:10 pm

I was asked by "Stix" to make a comment here BUT... I'm not prepared to enter the debate at this time until I re-read EVERY comment that has been made for and against. I've been shooting for near 60 years, many calibres on small creatures..ie about the size of a Grey Roo... nothing fancy in creature size.

I don't ever or ever want to "shoot from the hip or shoulder" as the word goes... it's always from a rested rifle. Bang Plonk...
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 30 May 2018, 7:43 pm

Stix wrote:Thanks for kind words bigrich & marksman.
Although it wasnt meant to be a brag fest.

I was trying to knock this sudden rush of exaggerated ethics of " ONLY head shoot if its a brain shot" hooha on its head.
And also say & demonstrate that when i said 'know & stick to your limits' i mean "everything" involved in the shot, not just range...but as i said cartridge as well.. .cos in the right circumstances, some animals aint goin anywhere from a plain ol' "headshot"..

I know a bloke that will head shoot goats at 100 off the shoulder with a 308...ive stood next to him while he did it....a very experienced & confident hunter & obviously a good shot...!

And big rich, you'd probably be surprised at what you could hit in the field. :thumbsup:
Its all about confidence, being concious of your trigger & knowing your rifle & cartridge. Confidence in range as well, cos 100yds in a paddock with nothing to relate too looks a sh1t load further than 100yds in a metro street...
But a big thing is know &/or learn how to tame your phisiology when a shot presents itself in that paddock.
There are ways to test yourself to a certain point at the range or target shooting on a property.
And 99% of what i shoot is from a rested position.


rested position ? last hunt i was on i was huffing and puffing to get into position to sight up a goat mob. in a rocky timbered ridge line. got a good shot of at a goat walking at around 60- 80 yards. good shot too, went in behind the left shoulder and came out right side of chest. hit major bones and the goat was out quick. :drinks: practice, practice, ay stix ? lot's more tuscan rabbit dishes and goat curries before i get to be a great shot. the sacrifices i make for me hobbies . :lol: :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 30 May 2018, 8:05 pm

Yes mate from a rested position im talking about...
Only time im off the shoulder is with 12g on bunnies or a stalk up to a mob of goats.
Ah maybe the very occasional dumb fox that pops its head up suddenly wondering what the bright light is 20 yds from the car if spotlighting.

And im lucky to hit a double decker bus after a heavy hike up a mountain...may as well chuck rocks until the heart rate is back down a touch & get some oxygen back in those veins...!!!
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Bigjobss » 30 May 2018, 8:06 pm

The half dozen sambar Ive taken I have had between 3-8 seconds to take the shot, no headshots or rest option for me, its the nature of stalking sambar in the hills :drinks: best I can hope for is dropping a knee and is why I practice at the range offhand, seated, prone etc but not on a bench.
Fallow Ive been able to snipe a couple, they seem to give you a bit more time.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 30 May 2018, 8:52 pm

Stix wrote:Yes mate from a rested position im talking about...
Only time im off the shoulder is with 12g on bunnies or a stalk up to a mob of goats.
Ah maybe the very occasional dumb fox that pops its head up suddenly wondering what the bright light is 20 yds from the car if spotlighting.

And im lucky to hit a double decker bus after a heavy hike up a mountain...may as well chuck rocks until the heart rate is back down a touch & get some oxygen back in those veins...!!!


i have done some shots where i've sighted up over a car bonnet or propped against a tree.longest shot i've taken so far was a billy standing on a big boulder at at least 140 yards, one shot through right side of chest, exited just before rear leg. 6.5's have great penetration ( probably too good, gotta start hand loading 140 nosler partitions ). makes it bloody interesting stalking/chasing them up. paper targets at the range don't get twitchy and run :lol: :lol: :lol: :drinks:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Apollo » 30 May 2018, 10:05 pm

Goat shooting (even a big Billy) with a 6.5mm at short range (140y) really with a 140gr. I've gotta give up thinking reality. Wow, overkill by miles.

I'm getting too old. I thought a 6mm 90gr at 200 plus was a medium range idea and mostly a typical much lesser calibre range.

I'm not a professional shooter, I just shoot vermin about every second day (morning or night) and it's use anything handy to steady with and make 200m plus shots from Rabbits to rather large Grey Grasshoppers. Crows are fun at 300m plus with a light 70gr 6mm and no. I have no I don't aim for a head shot but then there isn't much left to figure out where the bullet hit.

The question of "Head Shot vs Heart/Lung" well that depends on what you are shooting and at what distance. But, the big factor is how experienced you are and I'm reading here a lot of inexperience in comments. Heart/Lung shots tend a fraction to be caused by shooters that do not have the confidence to make a head shot and/or don't have the correct gear/calibre. Don't know..!!

Oh, sorry... I think I had some comment in mind about the "Head" vs "Brain" shot... Hmm, same difference with anything I use. Aim eg on a Grey Roo just below the eyes and hit there...that's a head shot that eg with a .204R at 150m is what entry hole...but nothing left of the opposite side of the skull...36gr Varmint Grenade.

If you are going to argue about either or not of the two topics then you need to add a lot of circumstances into which shot you take and why against the experience you have or know for certain the person taking the shot has.

Target shooters, especially long range target shooters generally are the best long range hunters/varminters and one of Australia's best target shooters very much enjoys his long distance varmint/hunting.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by brett1868 » 30 May 2018, 10:17 pm

A lot of my shots are done prone from the tray of the Rattler using a bipod and sand bags, everything has been ranged and a dope card prepared. I'm too old and broken for stalking in the bush so I just sit and wait for the fur to wander into range these days. If I'm feeling right and all the variables are aligned I'll possibly take a long shot if appropriately equipped, my usual choice of caliber is either the 375Cheytac with a 350gr JHP or the 416 Barrett with a 450gr JHP for this type of shooting. Both cartridges are more then capable of detonating the chest cavity of the local pest animals out to the property boundary. Much will also depend on how much and recent game / pest shooting you've been doing, nothing beats trigger time for improving the shooting skills.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Bigjobss » 30 May 2018, 10:24 pm

brett1868 wrote:I just sit and wait for the fur to wander into range these days.

My preffered tactic when I used to go bar hopping.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Apollo » 30 May 2018, 10:34 pm

Bigjobss wrote:
brett1868 wrote:I just sit and wait for the fur to wander into range these days.

My preffered tactic when I used to go bar hopping.


My preferred tactic to but ...unlike Brett I use something way much smaller in calibre and perhaps more accurate than he is using.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 30 May 2018, 10:35 pm

I dont know much about 6.5's or what projectile you're using rich...or nos partitions for that matter.
But id try a really light frangible projectile for goats-they really are just a fox with a hard head/or sometimes a really big fox--pretty soft animals really so you dont wana use heavy bullets on em.
I had all sorts of trouble with Sierra 120 game kings in 7mm pencilling through them, so im on the Vmax 120 bt's now :thumbsup: , & ill try speer 110 tnt's next.
Maybe try the Speer's too rich for the goats.

The 140+yd shot sounds a good one rich... :thumbsup: (im in withdrawl--havnt shot a goat for 7 months :cry: ).
Practice shots like that out to 200yds putting yourself under pressure & you'll be head shootin in no time & enjoyin a full goat on your spit...maybe even throw a coopers in the dripping pan before dunking the crusty loaf eh... :drinks:
Last edited by Stix on 30 May 2018, 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Apollo » 30 May 2018, 10:40 pm

brett1868 wrote:A lot of my shots are done prone from the tray of the Rattler using a bipod and sand bags, everything has been ranged and a dope card prepared. I'm too old and broken for stalking in the bush so I just sit and wait for the fur to wander into range these days. If I'm feeling right and all the variables are aligned I'll possibly take a long shot if appropriately equipped, my usual choice of caliber is either the 375Cheytac with a 350gr JHP or the 416 Barrett with a 450gr JHP for this type of shooting. Both cartridges are more then capable of detonating the chest cavity of the local pest animals out to the property boundary. Much will also depend on how much and recent game / pest shooting you've been doing, nothing beats trigger time for improving the shooting skills.


You had better try out some 500m Fly Shooting... No muzzle breaks allowed.... :clap:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by brett1868 » 30 May 2018, 10:43 pm

My preferred tactic to but ...unlike Brett I use something way much smaller in calibre and perhaps more accurate than he is using.


Despite what she tells you old mate....size does matter :lol:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 30 May 2018, 10:45 pm

Bigjobss wrote:
brett1868 wrote:I just sit and wait for the fur to wander into range these days.

My preffered tactic when I used to go bar hopping.


We dont need to know your foreplay methods with the missus brett...!! :lol:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Bigjobss » 30 May 2018, 10:46 pm

Apollo wrote:
Bigjobss wrote:
brett1868 wrote:I just sit and wait for the fur to wander into range these days.

My preffered tactic when I used to go bar hopping.


My preferred tactic to but ...unlike Brett I use something way much smaller in calibre and perhaps more accurate than he is using.


So you have an average sized calibre but you know how to use it?
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Apollo » 30 May 2018, 10:58 pm

Bigjobss wrote:
Apollo wrote:
Bigjobss wrote:
brett1868 wrote:I just sit and wait for the fur to wander into range these days.

My preffered tactic when I used to go bar hopping.


My preferred tactic to but ...unlike Brett I use something way much smaller in calibre and perhaps more accurate than he is using.


So you have an average sized calibre but you know how to use it?


Yes, I have and average size calibre (.22 or 6mm) and yes I know how to use it. I also know how to use something slightly larger like a 6.5mm and can put 5 shots into a best of 30mm 5 shot group at 500 metres. It doesn't happen all the time but I'm pretty handy shooting with the best.

There are a number of Grey Grasshoppers here that have a 6.5mm Headache at 500 metres. (6.5x47 Lapua) Just happen to visit my 500m practise range. :thumbsup: Bullets are 123, 130 gr.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Bigjobss » 30 May 2018, 11:13 pm

Good work, no better feeling than throwing a full 6.5" pay load down range and hitting the bullseye.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 31 May 2018, 7:04 am

Stix wrote:I dont know much about 6.5's or what projectile you're using rich...or nos partitions for that matter.
But id try a really light frangible projectile for goats-they really are just a fox with a hard head/or sometimes a really big fox--pretty soft animals really so you dont wana use heavy bullets on em.
I had all sorts of trouble with Sierra 120 game kings in 7mm pencilling through them, so im on the Vmax 120 bt's now :thumbsup: , & ill try speer 110 tnt's next.
Maybe try the Speer's too rich for the goats.

The 140+yd shot sounds a good one rich... :thumbsup: (im in withdrawl--havnt shot a goat for 7 months :cry: ).
Practice shots like that out to 200yds putting yourself under pressure & you'll be head shootin in no time & enjoyin a full goat on your spit...maybe even throw a coopers in the dripping pan before dunking the crusty loaf eh... :drinks:


Main reason I’m packing heavy rounds is coz I got onto norma factory ammo cheap, and there are red deer and large pigs in the area. If I was specifically after goats I’d probably just stalk in under 100 and head shoot with my 22 hornet. Better to be over gunned than under I reckon
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by marksman » 31 May 2018, 11:41 am

Stix wrote:The 140+yd shot sounds a good one rich... :thumbsup: (im in withdrawl--havnt shot a goat for 7 months :cry: ).
Practice shots like that out to 200yds putting yourself under pressure & you'll be head shootin in no time & enjoyin a full goat on your spit...maybe even throw a coopers in the dripping pan before dunking the crusty loaf eh... :drinks:


your dead right stix practice is the key to shooting more precisely at longer distance and getting confidence to be able to take the shot
I haven't for a while but do put golf balls out at 200-300 to practice, of late I shoot rabbits in the head at distance for really good practice :allegedly:
my children are taught by doing the same practice as me, starting off with swinging targets at 50 with a rimfire then 100 minimum with a centrefire
it can be like a obsessive disease shooting at distance, once you start hitting you want more and cant get enough :thumbsup:
how I used to practice for off the shoulder for shorter shots was to do drill dot targets at 50 and clays with a shotgun,
drill dots are excellent because you are not trying to get a tiny group you are trying to hit the target once quickly off the shoulder, 22 is cheap
some are not into it and that's fine, we all hunt our way and if everyone else is happy so am I :drinks:
but bang flop is the desired effect
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Member-Deleted » 31 May 2018, 11:50 am

G'day Apollo , Mate this rifle your shooting 5 shots into 30mm @ 500m wouldn't be stock standard would it
That's some shooting there in any ones eyes mate , well done, I take it your a target shooter?
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 31 May 2018, 4:26 pm

marksman wrote:
Stix wrote:The 140+yd shot sounds a good one rich... :thumbsup: (im in withdrawl--havnt shot a goat for 7 months :cry: ).
Practice shots like that out to 200yds putting yourself under pressure & you'll be head shootin in no time & enjoyin a full goat on your spit...maybe even throw a coopers in the dripping pan before dunking the crusty loaf eh... :drinks:


your dead right stix practice is the key to shooting more precisely at longer distance and getting confidence to be able to take the shot
I haven't for a while but do put golf balls out at 200-300 to practice, of late I shoot rabbits in the head at distance for really good practice :allegedly:
my children are taught by doing the same practice as me, starting off with swinging targets at 50 with a rimfire then 100 minimum with a centrefire
it can be like a obsessive disease shooting at distance, once you start hitting you want more and cant get enough :thumbsup:
how I used to practice for off the shoulder for shorter shots was to do drill dot targets at 50 and clays with a shotgun,
drill dots are excellent because you are not trying to get a tiny group you are trying to hit the target once quickly off the shoulder, 22 is cheap
some are not into it and that's fine, we all hunt our way and if everyone else is happy so am I :drinks:
but bang flop is the desired effect


i like your shooting practice ideas MM. just recently started clays with the shotty. when i get tired of paper and groups i put a couple of clays on the bank at 100 at my local range and shoot them in half, qaurters, eights, etc. with my hornet. bit more fun than "groups". golf balls at 300 is bloody good shootin' mate :thumbsup: i can average 1" at 100 with my 6.5, 2 1/4" at 200. good enough for a hunting rifle. bit different shooting at twitchy , live moving targets in the feild. i need more practice :lol: :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 31 May 2018, 4:28 pm

grandadbushy wrote:G'day Apollo , Mate this rifle your shooting 5 shots into 30mm @ 500m wouldn't be stock standard would it
That's some shooting there in any ones eyes mate , well done, I take it your a target shooter?


wow ! laser guided bullets maybe ? :lol: that's some skill, must be quite a rifle and scope as well. love your work :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Apollo » 31 May 2018, 9:07 pm

grandadbushy wrote:G'day Apollo , Mate this rifle your shooting 5 shots into 30mm @ 500m wouldn't be stock standard would it
That's some shooting there in any ones eyes mate , well done, I take it your a target shooter?


You got it, it's a custom made target rifle for Benchrest. Stolle Grizzly II in a Kelbly 1M Benchrest Stock and wears an 8-80x56mm March Scope. Designed for the 500 Metre Fly Competition.

It's a bit off tune at present due to a problem with bullets. Initially in testing and practise at 200 metres it would shoot consistantly 0.2" 5 shots groups and now it's about double that which is not good enough by a long shot. Have a supply of different bullets that look like it may get back to initial accuracy, just have not had time to finish testing. Waiting for an ideal day as well with no wind or mirage.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 31 May 2018, 11:34 pm

marksman wrote:
Stix wrote:The 140+yd shot sounds a good one rich... :thumbsup: (im in withdrawl--havnt shot a goat for 7 months :cry: ).
Practice shots like that out to 200yds putting yourself under pressure & you'll be head shootin in no time & enjoyin a full goat on your spit...maybe even throw a coopers in the dripping pan before dunking the crusty loaf eh... :drinks:


your dead right stix practice is the key to shooting more precisely at longer distance and getting confidence to be able to take the shot
I haven't for a while but do put golf balls out at 200-300 to practice, of late I shoot rabbits in the head at distance for really good practice :allegedly:
my children are taught by doing the same practice as me, starting off with swinging targets at 50 with a rimfire then 100 minimum with a centrefire
it can be like a obsessive disease shooting at distance, once you start hitting you want more and cant get enough :thumbsup:
how I used to practice for off the shoulder for shorter shots was to do drill dot targets at 50 and clays with a shotgun,
drill dots are excellent because you are not trying to get a tiny group you are trying to hit the target once quickly off the shoulder, 22 is cheap
some are not into it and that's fine, we all hunt our way and if everyone else is happy so am I :drinks:
but bang flop is the desired effect


Wow...even your kids on swinging targets eh...with Dad AND his daughter shooting like that, the future son-in-law better watch himself then...!!! :lol:

When i was a kid we (ol'man & i) would sometimes call into the rural rubbish tips near properties we were hunting (back in the day when no one went there & you could go in them & let off some of Bretts barrels & no one would give a hoot), and the ol'man would set up 7-9 bottles &/or cans & tell me to shoot them as quick as i can-sometimes from rest & sometimes off the shoulder.
I grew up having to head shoot bunnies for food, & thats stuck with me throughout life (well until my recent fox fur fetish).
I dont really get to practice much at all these days, but last time up the farm i put some water filled cans out at 50, 100 & 200 & let the farmer have a crack with the 204 & 22-250...we had a blast--he got right into it and loved seeing that water filled can explode at 200 with a 4' jump in the air with the 22-250.

Sometimes to have a break when target shooting up the farm, i throw the flip target out at 50 & have a rapid fire 10 shot crack at it as fast as possible with the 22 off the shoulder--my last trip out i did just that & didn't know the farmer was walking up to me from behind--thankfully i flipped that little orange sucker all 10 times... :D :lol: (i rekon atleast one of the hits was the stem though...hehe...ill call that one a neck shot if it were a bunny)

I like to put myself under pressure when practicing sometimes (when i have the time)...set up target(s) say 100, 150 & 200 but have the rifle & heavy bag on the back seat & me in the drivers seat...try psych myself that its an actual fox & set a time limit of say 25-30 seconds to get the bag & rifle out over the bonnet & get 3 shots off as quick as possible & hit all three concentrating on technique & the recoil through the scope..i usually try & get one dry fire in there at the beginning too...i like to think its good practice for the sudden pressure shot, but still i cant help but thinking of the fox i missed at under 20 yds this time last year :lol: :lol: :lol: :clap:

I like the idea of golf balls, but (i think) my rifles are'nt that accurate to be hitting them at or beyond 300...i just cant seem to get any of them shooting as accurate as i want.
But, it looks like im off to the reject shop for a box of golf balls...!
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 31 May 2018, 11:40 pm

bigrich wrote:
Stix wrote:I dont know much about 6.5's or what projectile you're using rich...or nos partitions for that matter.
But id try a really light frangible projectile for goats-they really are just a fox with a hard head/or sometimes a really big fox--pretty soft animals really so you dont wana use heavy bullets on em.
I had all sorts of trouble with Sierra 120 game kings in 7mm pencilling through them, so im on the Vmax 120 bt's now :thumbsup: , & ill try speer 110 tnt's next.
Maybe try the Speer's too rich for the goats.

The 140+yd shot sounds a good one rich... :thumbsup: (im in withdrawl--havnt shot a goat for 7 months :cry: ).
Practice shots like that out to 200yds putting yourself under pressure & you'll be head shootin in no time & enjoyin a full goat on your spit...maybe even throw a coopers in the dripping pan before dunking the crusty loaf eh... :drinks:


Main reason I’m packing heavy rounds is coz I got onto norma factory ammo cheap, and there are red deer and large pigs in the area. If I was specifically after goats I’d probably just stalk in under 100 and head shoot with my 22 hornet. Better to be over gunned than under I reckon


Fairy nuff...!! :thumbsup:
Hit hard bone with those heavy buggers then-their heads are hard--a heavy outa the 6.5 would automatically bleed the goat for ya too...!! 8-)

Anyway, doesnt sound to me like you need that hornet... :unknown:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 01 Jun 2018, 7:08 am

Stix, I’ll be keeping a eye out for any sly looking characters with a fox fur hat and South Australian number plates on their car , wild eyed and muttering about “hornets” with a bag of second hand golf balls :lol: tried a box of win 46 gr hp at 100 and was getting well under 1” groups. I was pretty chuffed. My shell holder for my press turned up just yesterday so will start reloading hornet soon :thumbsup:
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Queensland

Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 01 Jun 2018, 4:33 pm

bigrich wrote: tried a box of win 46 gr hp at 100 and was getting well under 1” groups. I was pretty chuffed. My shell holder for my press turned up just yesterday so will start reloading hornet soon :thumbsup:


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
The man who knows everything, doesnt really know everything...he's just stopped learning...
Stix
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South Australia

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