head shots vs heart/lung

Game hunting and large prey. Deer stalking, hunting with hounds. Boar, pigs etc., large prey, culling, hunting large feral animals.

head shots vs heart/lung

Post by allthegearandnoidea » 22 May 2018, 6:22 pm

Hi guys
I went out hunting recently and was lucky enough to get a fallow and a young goat. Fella I was with gave me his 22-250 to use as my rifle was shooting off.
He is a well experienced hunter and a very good shot and urged headshots as we were after meat. Ethically I know 22-250 technically too small for deer but I got a head shot on the fallow (only 60 meters - so no skill involved)

What do you guys think about headshots vs bodyshots?

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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Daddybang » 22 May 2018, 6:31 pm

As long as it's an ethical kill it's totally up to the shooter at the time ya pull the trigger. Personally I neck shoot alot. :thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 22 May 2018, 6:38 pm

I think if you can head shoot then do it...especially if you're capable of a brain shot...!!
Know & stick to your limits though. :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Bigjobss » 22 May 2018, 6:56 pm

Unless the person had roo shooter like skills from thousands upon thousands of rounds in the field on animals and a good rest I would not be comfortable with a head shot on a deer, their heads are constantly twitching and the margin for error is tiny, think about how big the brain is on a fallow.
Not having a go, just sharing my oppinion

I have heard horror stories of people coming across deer with maggot infested faces from missed headshots. Neck, heart/lungs, shoulder with an appropriate caliber, a big target and anywhere in that zone and hydrostatic shock and bone fragment shrapnel will do the job ethically.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Archie » 22 May 2018, 7:01 pm

I don't like headshots. I understand why people do them, I don't. 4 reasons:

1/ Most decent shooters can probably hit a head at similar distances to a reliable heart lung shot. But heart/lung is a bigger target in most cases (angle, ribs etc can complicate that a bit). Bigger target = more margin for error. I like margin for error in imperfect shooting conditions, and field shooting is always imperfect. Never a bench when you need one.
2/ The argument that a head shot is either a clean hit or a clean miss is, to be totally honest, bulls**t. Animals hit in the muzzle or jaw don't die and do run. The same distance from point of aim at a heart/lung probably was a clean kill.
3/ Heads move. Well, they are animals, everything moves, but heads are on the end of a pivot point, they move more. If an animal is grazing or browsing the centre mass can be still while the head is moving about, but if the centre mass is moving then the head is moving also because its walking. There is just more risk of the point of aim shifting at the last minute.
4/ The last reason, and to be clear I am not saying this applies to you or your mate, is that some people headshoot because it's seen as harder and they want to prove they can. Always bad to bring ego into it.

All that said, I get why people do it. Minimal meat damage, and when it goes right then it drops without drama.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by sungazer » 22 May 2018, 7:02 pm

I have heard similar stories of deer hit in the jaw. A horrible mess and a slow painful death. I have taken head shots however I was very certain of my shot, lots of practice at that distance on paper regularly.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by SCJ429 » 22 May 2018, 7:56 pm

Front on with the body behind, a headshot works. Or from behind with the spine and neck presented.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Oldbloke » 22 May 2018, 8:45 pm

Archie wrote:I don't like headshots. I understand why people do them, I don't. 4 reasons:

1/ Most decent shooters can probably hit a head at similar distances to a reliable heart lung shot. But heart/lung is a bigger target in most cases (angle, ribs etc can complicate that a bit). Bigger target = more margin for error. I like margin for error in imperfect shooting conditions, and field shooting is always imperfect. Never a bench when you need one.



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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by marksman » 22 May 2018, 8:46 pm

not a head shot, a brain shot between the ear and eye or the back of the head, never between the peepers, if the animal is looking straight at you neck shot, if you can shoot a cricket ball at 200 you can head shoot any deer at 200, there really is not a big deal just shoot straight

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take a good rest and learn to shoot straight and do it right :thumbsup:
these were both brain shot with a 22-250 at over 200
I've seen to many deer run off after being so called heart/lung shot and never recovered :thumbsdown:
I've also heard the complaints from farmers and DSE about deer hunters removing the back legs and leaving the rest for someone else to clean up
usually the gone wild dogs
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by pomemax » 22 May 2018, 11:55 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJr7Ph5SGO4&t=65s

this is very graphic see if you can watch it
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigpete » 23 May 2018, 7:22 am

Stix wrote:I think if you can head shoot then do it...especially if you're capable of a brain shot...!!
Know & stick to your limits though. :thumbsup:

ONLY if you're capable of a brain shot. Anywhere else leaves a wounded animal to die slowly
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Gwion » 23 May 2018, 8:13 am

One expression comes to mind:

Never mistake ambition for ability!

Being able to pass up the shot is also a valuable skill.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by brett1868 » 23 May 2018, 8:36 am

Funny enough, the govt fella mandates that Giant Bunnies be head shot...If its good enough for Skippy then it should be good enough for Bambi. Each situation will be different so skill and good judgement will be key to shot placement.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by marksman » 23 May 2018, 8:57 am

pomemax wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJr7Ph5SGO4&t=65s

this is very graphic see if you can watch it


whats hard to watch about it? if you hunt it's part of it, respect the animal and do it right, bang flop
at 1.25 it shows a small fallow skull and why I said never a front on shot between the peepers,
deer don't have a big brow so unless they have there head pointing down there is no target
a hunter will always wait for the shot, when the deer stops still and sniffs the air as an example
give a cough it will pull them up for the shot, as they are about to jump a fence they will look back if they haven't been chased
dont take 10 minutes to get ready for the shot, pull the firearm up crosshairs on press the trigger, simple

bigpete wrote:
Stix wrote:I think if you can head shoot then do it...especially if you're capable of a brain shot...!!
Know & stick to your limits though. :thumbsup:

ONLY if you're capable of a brain shot. Anywhere else leaves a wounded animal to die slowly


if you cannot hit the brain area in a deer head your firearm has a problem,
even a bad shot can shoot a good rifle well but a good shot will never shoot a bad rifle any good :unknown:
all hunting rifles should be able to shoot 2' moa at 200, you hear it all the time "1' moa is good enough for a hunting rifle" at 100

Gwion wrote:One expression comes to mind:

Never mistake ambition for ability!

Being able to pass up the shot is also a valuable skill.


very good advise
learn how to shoot straight, get the right gear, dont look for good enough,
learn how to read an animal, know when to shoot, where to shoot and when to watch them move on
there will always be another one if you do it right
the country folk I shoot with all do head shots on everything, its how they are taught to hunt
texas heart shots do not fill the freezer, it does feed dogs gone wild though
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bladeracer » 23 May 2018, 9:16 am

I prefer a brain shot when it's a clean shot, but those opportunities are rare. Next best is upper spine just below the head. But a good boiler room shot is extremely effective as well.

One of my mum's chihuahua's was shot straight into the front of the chest. The .22LR bullet went right through his body and exited at the root of his tail without breaking it. He was in intense pain for a few days but no internal organs were injured and no surgery was required. He lived into happy old age with no effects.
That left a lasting impression on me, so much so that I find I won't take a head-on shot into the chest on anything bigger than a rabbit. I am well aware that such a shot is virtually impossible, especially for one person to see such twice in his lifetime, but I just can't take the risk of doing that to any animal.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bladeracer » 23 May 2018, 9:22 am

marksman wrote:if you cannot hit the brain area in a deer head your firearm has a problem,
even a bad shot can shoot a good rifle well but a good shot will never shoot a bad rifle any good :unknown:
all hunting rifles should be able to shoot 2' moa at 200, you hear it all the time "1' moa is good enough for a hunting rifle" at 100


The most important point about head shots is not about how accurate you or the rifle are, the most important thing is knowing when the animal is static and not likely to move it's head as you squeeze off the shot.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by sungazer » 23 May 2018, 9:41 am

Hi Marksman our rifle club has twice yearly events with the Deer Hunters Association and one of the ranges is free standing at 100yrd using 6 ft by 6 ft targets with a 300yrd Target rifle score ring in the chest area which would be about 2 ft across. I am sad to say that some of the deer hunters fail to hit that scoring target 5 out 5 shots some even fail to hit the full scale black deer only hitting the white in the target backboard. There are some truly bad shots out there.
On the other hand in the Deer hunters Association there are some very impressive shooters as well, so I am not labeling them all as bad shots just there are a few firearms owners that give deer a very good chance of living.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Archie » 23 May 2018, 10:45 am

bladeracer wrote:I prefer a brain shot when it's a clean shot, but those opportunities are rare. Next best is upper spine just below the head. But a good boiler room shot is extremely effective as well.

One of my mum's chihuahua's was shot straight into the front of the chest. The .22LR bullet went right through his body and exited at the root of his tail without breaking it. He was in intense pain for a few days but no internal organs were injured and no surgery was required. He lived into happy old age with no effects.
That left a lasting impression on me, so much so that I find I won't take a head-on shot into the chest on anything bigger than a rabbit. I am well aware that such a shot is virtually impossible, especially for one person to see such twice in his lifetime, but I just can't take the risk of doing that to any animal.


I've never really like chihuahua's but even for a yappy dog that seems a bit extreme...
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bladeracer » 23 May 2018, 10:48 am

sungazer wrote:Hi Marksman our rifle club has twice yearly events with the Deer Hunters Association and one of the ranges is free standing at 100yrd using 6 ft by 6 ft targets with a 300yrd Target rifle score ring in the chest area which would be about 2 ft across. I am sad to say that some of the deer hunters fail to hit that scoring target 5 out 5 shots some even fail to hit the full scale black deer only hitting the white in the target backboard. There are some truly bad shots out there.
On the other hand in the Deer hunters Association there are some very impressive shooters as well, so I am not labeling them all as bad shots just there are a few firearms owners that give deer a very good chance of living.


I'm a member and have wondered if there's any practical shooting side to these events, might have to come for a look one day.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by marksman » 23 May 2018, 1:54 pm

sungazer wrote:Hi Marksman our rifle club has twice yearly events with the Deer Hunters Association and one of the ranges is free standing at 100yrd using 6 ft by 6 ft targets with a 300yrd Target rifle score ring in the chest area which would be about 2 ft across. I am sad to say that some of the deer hunters fail to hit that scoring target 5 out 5 shots some even fail to hit the full scale black deer only hitting the white in the target backboard. There are some truly bad shots out there.
On the other hand in the Deer hunters Association there are some very impressive shooters as well, so I am not labeling them all as bad shots just there are a few firearms owners that give deer a very good chance of living.


so don't shoot off the shoulder :drinks:
be a spot and stalk hunter not a bumper and blaster :lol: be a hunter not a scarer :lol:
I did mention to use a good rest,
I use these texas bipod shooting sticks when going through the bush, these are very good
I especially use these off one leg but my shots off one leg are out to 100 at most
but practice how you are going to shoot, benches are for testing loads
usually bumper and blaster's don't shoot over 50, if its a longer shot they will take a rest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFkLE4JFGfA
but I usually sit and snipe at distance :allegedly:

and at little river ssaa range (when I was welcome :lol: )
I used to hit a steel gong at 500 easily off the shoulder even with my 375 H&H that gong is about 500mm round :lol:
I dont shoot animals with a rifle off the shoulder, I dont think I am good enough and wont take the risk :thumbsdown:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Daddybang » 23 May 2018, 2:02 pm

marksman wrote:
sungazer wrote:Hi Marksman our rifle club has twice yearly events with the Deer Hunters Association and one of the ranges is free standing at 100yrd using 6 ft by 6 ft targets with a 300yrd Target rifle score ring in the chest area which would be about 2 ft across. I am sad to say that some of the deer hunters fail to hit that scoring target 5 out 5 shots some even fail to hit the full scale black deer only hitting the white in the target backboard. There are some truly bad shots out there.
On the other hand in the Deer hunters Association there are some very impressive shooters as well, so I am not labeling them all as bad shots just there are a few firearms owners that give deer a very good chance of living.


so don't shoot off the shoulder :drinks:
be a spot and stalk hunter not a bumper and blaster :lol: be a hunter not a scarer :lol:
I did mention to use a good rest,
I use these texas bipod shooting sticks when going through the bush, these are very good
I especially use these off one leg but my shots off one leg are out to 100 at most
but practice how you are going to shoot, benches are for testing loads
usually bumper and blaster's don't shoot over 50, if its a longer shot they will take a rest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFkLE4JFGfA
but I usually sit and snipe at distance :allegedly:

and at little river ssaa range (when I was welcome :lol: )
I used to hit a steel gong at 500 easily off the shoulder even with my 375 H&H that gong is about 500mm round :lol:
I dont shoot animals with a rifle off the shoulder, I dont think I am good enough and wont take the risk :thumbsdown:


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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Gwion » 23 May 2018, 3:08 pm

brett1868 wrote:Funny enough, the govt fella mandates that Giant Bunnies be head shot...If its good enough for Skippy then it should be good enough for Bambi. Each situation will be different so skill and good judgement will be key to shot placement.


Very good point. From memory, the gov't fella also mandates that pro giant bunny shooters pass an accuracy test before being issued a permit. Also suggests that any tag permit properties get shooters to do an accuracy test before letting them loose on the giant bunnies.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 23 May 2018, 4:04 pm

heart lung shots for me, providing the rifle calibre is right for the job. as someone else posted, it's also a skill to know when to pass on a shot as well. heart lung has a greater room for error than a head shot for me, my skills aren't up there with a proffesional roo shooter, so i prefer to err on the side of caution. it's one thing to hit a paper target at the range, it's quite another to attempt a head shot on twitchy nervous game. heart /lung is a bigger target , i have pulled a poor shot when a goat moved on me recently, but the caliber was sufficent to anchor it on the spot so it was quickly finished with a second shot.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Oldbloke » 23 May 2018, 5:27 pm

Gwion wrote:One expression comes to mind:

Never mistake ambition for ability!

Being able to pass up the shot is also a valuable skill.



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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by marksman » 23 May 2018, 5:34 pm

Gwion wrote:
brett1868 wrote:Funny enough, the govt fella mandates that Giant Bunnies be head shot...If its good enough for Skippy then it should be good enough for Bambi. Each situation will be different so skill and good judgement will be key to shot placement.


Very good point. From memory, the gov't fella also mandates that pro giant bunny shooters pass an accuracy test before being issued a permit. Also suggests that any tag permit properties get shooters to do an accuracy test before letting them loose on the giant bunnies.


accuracy test's are not mandatory in all states for tag permits or all roo shooters,
but its not a hard one since you shoot off a rest inside the car at 100 with an accurate precise setup, just like benchrest shooting no different
really, if you call hunting accuracy 1' moa at 100 good enough who could not do that off a rest with the roo shooters rifle and setup
if you dont think you are up to it neck shoot they drop just as quick and dont get up, you still get bugger all waste and dont feed the dogs :drinks:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigfellascott » 23 May 2018, 5:55 pm

Love headshots - you just need to know how to shoot well then it’s not that hard to do. Put some oranges or apples out at different ranges and practice.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 23 May 2018, 5:57 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Gwion wrote:One expression comes to mind:

Never mistake ambition for ability!

Being able to pass up the shot is also a valuable skill.



:thumbsup:


yup, that's the qoute i was thinking of OB :thumbsup: :drinks: :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Heckler303 » 23 May 2018, 6:58 pm

I've had discussions previously regarding the hunting of wallabies with this topic. I'd always chose just the 22LR, with Eley 40grn subsonics, as I knew I could get myself headshots up to and sometimes past 50M. Yet apparently if you don't buy into the 'magnum fever' that's going around and use a .223 with Hornady 55grn hollowpoints whizzing out at 3200, even 3300, you apparently wont guarantee yourself a clean, or 'ethical' kill. I never understood the need for a larger caliber until I realised that these people talking of using a heavier round, aren't really capable of getting a clean headshot. Instead launching the pill directly in the center of the animal and waiting until it eventually falls over. Usually this is well after it has bolted for a good distance.

When I get back into the frame of things I will however try a new .310 Martini Cadet that I have in the works. :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 23 May 2018, 7:28 pm

interesting point heckler, if you can accurately head shoot game, not a very large caliber is required .223 would be overkill at the range and game you mention, but 223 would definately gives you more options on range and the variety of game you could tackle. i mostly come across goats where i hunt, at varying ranges. i have a very accurate 22 hornet that i could probably easily take with head shots out to 100+ easily .at closer range a 22 mag would do nicely. on account of the possibility of coming across a pig or deer, i'm usually packing a 6.5x55. more than enough for a heart/lung shot with room for error. a .310 martini is a great accurate bit of gear. looked at getting a sportco 22 hornet martini at a good price recently, but came back to reality of having enough toys already :lol: :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by duncan61 » 23 May 2018, 8:41 pm

I have been a roo shooter in the Gascoyne for a number of years and I went to get a small roo for food one afternoon between culling so I thought I would pop it in the chest with a .243 and it hopped off.I continued to head shoot from then on as 99 % fall on the spot.I have had a few wake up halfway through proccessing which is freaky but they expire very quickly as they are upside down and have no internal organs
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