head shots vs heart/lung

Game hunting and large prey. Deer stalking, hunting with hounds. Boar, pigs etc., large prey, culling, hunting large feral animals.

Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bladeracer » 23 May 2018, 10:48 am

sungazer wrote:Hi Marksman our rifle club has twice yearly events with the Deer Hunters Association and one of the ranges is free standing at 100yrd using 6 ft by 6 ft targets with a 300yrd Target rifle score ring in the chest area which would be about 2 ft across. I am sad to say that some of the deer hunters fail to hit that scoring target 5 out 5 shots some even fail to hit the full scale black deer only hitting the white in the target backboard. There are some truly bad shots out there.
On the other hand in the Deer hunters Association there are some very impressive shooters as well, so I am not labeling them all as bad shots just there are a few firearms owners that give deer a very good chance of living.


I'm a member and have wondered if there's any practical shooting side to these events, might have to come for a look one day.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by marksman » 23 May 2018, 1:54 pm

sungazer wrote:Hi Marksman our rifle club has twice yearly events with the Deer Hunters Association and one of the ranges is free standing at 100yrd using 6 ft by 6 ft targets with a 300yrd Target rifle score ring in the chest area which would be about 2 ft across. I am sad to say that some of the deer hunters fail to hit that scoring target 5 out 5 shots some even fail to hit the full scale black deer only hitting the white in the target backboard. There are some truly bad shots out there.
On the other hand in the Deer hunters Association there are some very impressive shooters as well, so I am not labeling them all as bad shots just there are a few firearms owners that give deer a very good chance of living.


so don't shoot off the shoulder :drinks:
be a spot and stalk hunter not a bumper and blaster :lol: be a hunter not a scarer :lol:
I did mention to use a good rest,
I use these texas bipod shooting sticks when going through the bush, these are very good
I especially use these off one leg but my shots off one leg are out to 100 at most
but practice how you are going to shoot, benches are for testing loads
usually bumper and blaster's don't shoot over 50, if its a longer shot they will take a rest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFkLE4JFGfA
but I usually sit and snipe at distance :allegedly:

and at little river ssaa range (when I was welcome :lol: )
I used to hit a steel gong at 500 easily off the shoulder even with my 375 H&H that gong is about 500mm round :lol:
I dont shoot animals with a rifle off the shoulder, I dont think I am good enough and wont take the risk :thumbsdown:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Daddybang » 23 May 2018, 2:02 pm

marksman wrote:
sungazer wrote:Hi Marksman our rifle club has twice yearly events with the Deer Hunters Association and one of the ranges is free standing at 100yrd using 6 ft by 6 ft targets with a 300yrd Target rifle score ring in the chest area which would be about 2 ft across. I am sad to say that some of the deer hunters fail to hit that scoring target 5 out 5 shots some even fail to hit the full scale black deer only hitting the white in the target backboard. There are some truly bad shots out there.
On the other hand in the Deer hunters Association there are some very impressive shooters as well, so I am not labeling them all as bad shots just there are a few firearms owners that give deer a very good chance of living.


so don't shoot off the shoulder :drinks:
be a spot and stalk hunter not a bumper and blaster :lol: be a hunter not a scarer :lol:
I did mention to use a good rest,
I use these texas bipod shooting sticks when going through the bush, these are very good
I especially use these off one leg but my shots off one leg are out to 100 at most
but practice how you are going to shoot, benches are for testing loads
usually bumper and blaster's don't shoot over 50, if its a longer shot they will take a rest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFkLE4JFGfA
but I usually sit and snipe at distance :allegedly:

and at little river ssaa range (when I was welcome :lol: )
I used to hit a steel gong at 500 easily off the shoulder even with my 375 H&H that gong is about 500mm round :lol:
I dont shoot animals with a rifle off the shoulder, I dont think I am good enough and wont take the risk :thumbsdown:


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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Gwion » 23 May 2018, 3:08 pm

brett1868 wrote:Funny enough, the govt fella mandates that Giant Bunnies be head shot...If its good enough for Skippy then it should be good enough for Bambi. Each situation will be different so skill and good judgement will be key to shot placement.


Very good point. From memory, the gov't fella also mandates that pro giant bunny shooters pass an accuracy test before being issued a permit. Also suggests that any tag permit properties get shooters to do an accuracy test before letting them loose on the giant bunnies.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 23 May 2018, 4:04 pm

heart lung shots for me, providing the rifle calibre is right for the job. as someone else posted, it's also a skill to know when to pass on a shot as well. heart lung has a greater room for error than a head shot for me, my skills aren't up there with a proffesional roo shooter, so i prefer to err on the side of caution. it's one thing to hit a paper target at the range, it's quite another to attempt a head shot on twitchy nervous game. heart /lung is a bigger target , i have pulled a poor shot when a goat moved on me recently, but the caliber was sufficent to anchor it on the spot so it was quickly finished with a second shot.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Oldbloke » 23 May 2018, 5:27 pm

Gwion wrote:One expression comes to mind:

Never mistake ambition for ability!

Being able to pass up the shot is also a valuable skill.



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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by marksman » 23 May 2018, 5:34 pm

Gwion wrote:
brett1868 wrote:Funny enough, the govt fella mandates that Giant Bunnies be head shot...If its good enough for Skippy then it should be good enough for Bambi. Each situation will be different so skill and good judgement will be key to shot placement.


Very good point. From memory, the gov't fella also mandates that pro giant bunny shooters pass an accuracy test before being issued a permit. Also suggests that any tag permit properties get shooters to do an accuracy test before letting them loose on the giant bunnies.


accuracy test's are not mandatory in all states for tag permits or all roo shooters,
but its not a hard one since you shoot off a rest inside the car at 100 with an accurate precise setup, just like benchrest shooting no different
really, if you call hunting accuracy 1' moa at 100 good enough who could not do that off a rest with the roo shooters rifle and setup
if you dont think you are up to it neck shoot they drop just as quick and dont get up, you still get bugger all waste and dont feed the dogs :drinks:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigfellascott » 23 May 2018, 5:55 pm

Love headshots - you just need to know how to shoot well then it’s not that hard to do. Put some oranges or apples out at different ranges and practice.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 23 May 2018, 5:57 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Gwion wrote:One expression comes to mind:

Never mistake ambition for ability!

Being able to pass up the shot is also a valuable skill.



:thumbsup:


yup, that's the qoute i was thinking of OB :thumbsup: :drinks: :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Heckler303 » 23 May 2018, 6:58 pm

I've had discussions previously regarding the hunting of wallabies with this topic. I'd always chose just the 22LR, with Eley 40grn subsonics, as I knew I could get myself headshots up to and sometimes past 50M. Yet apparently if you don't buy into the 'magnum fever' that's going around and use a .223 with Hornady 55grn hollowpoints whizzing out at 3200, even 3300, you apparently wont guarantee yourself a clean, or 'ethical' kill. I never understood the need for a larger caliber until I realised that these people talking of using a heavier round, aren't really capable of getting a clean headshot. Instead launching the pill directly in the center of the animal and waiting until it eventually falls over. Usually this is well after it has bolted for a good distance.

When I get back into the frame of things I will however try a new .310 Martini Cadet that I have in the works. :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 23 May 2018, 7:28 pm

interesting point heckler, if you can accurately head shoot game, not a very large caliber is required .223 would be overkill at the range and game you mention, but 223 would definately gives you more options on range and the variety of game you could tackle. i mostly come across goats where i hunt, at varying ranges. i have a very accurate 22 hornet that i could probably easily take with head shots out to 100+ easily .at closer range a 22 mag would do nicely. on account of the possibility of coming across a pig or deer, i'm usually packing a 6.5x55. more than enough for a heart/lung shot with room for error. a .310 martini is a great accurate bit of gear. looked at getting a sportco 22 hornet martini at a good price recently, but came back to reality of having enough toys already :lol: :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by duncan61 » 23 May 2018, 8:41 pm

I have been a roo shooter in the Gascoyne for a number of years and I went to get a small roo for food one afternoon between culling so I thought I would pop it in the chest with a .243 and it hopped off.I continued to head shoot from then on as 99 % fall on the spot.I have had a few wake up halfway through proccessing which is freaky but they expire very quickly as they are upside down and have no internal organs
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 23 May 2018, 9:17 pm

duncan61 wrote:I have been a roo shooter in the Gascoyne for a number of years and I went to get a small roo for food one afternoon between culling so I thought I would pop it in the chest with a .243 and it hopped off.I continued to head shoot from then on as 99 % fall on the spot.I have had a few wake up halfway through proccessing which is freaky but they expire very quickly as they are upside down and have no internal organs


Hey duncsn, that would be freaky...!!
Not that this compares, but last time i was out foxing i took a headshot on a bunny at 180 odd yards with the 204 & removed its head.
It had the full flap of skin from one side of its head left, & it was still twitching as if running away with its innards being removed a good 10-15 mins later.
Having my hand in the tummy of a bunny whos legs were 13 to th dozen was freaky enough for me...!! :lol:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by duncan61 » 23 May 2018, 10:22 pm

What happens is the pill has grazed the skull and knocked them out so you hear the thud and they go down its happened 3 times in about 5 thousand animals
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Midwestman » 23 May 2018, 11:10 pm

head shot or heart/lung shot,if the animal moves say for arguments sake uses a tree or bush for cover if it may pick on your slight scent,like forested hunting areas or scrub,and YOUR NOT COMFORTABLE WITH YOUR SHOT,DON'T TAKE IT PERIOD,till you get a better position or the animal does. EG I was out hunting a couple of mates 3months ago,went piggin the other side of Walgett,and a friend bought another hunting friend of his along and he thought he'd be a hero too impress us,well we come across this big boar,and he saying this and that put 4 shots with a 243 into this boars head none of them hit the spot,boar extremely agitated to say the least it's jaws smashed etc took me way too long to line up as it was going ballistic,terrible and dangerous situation for everyone,finally put one in his neck,dropped on the spot.Well after that we told hero pack up your gears never ever are you welcome with us Ever. As my ol man taught me IF YOUR NOT COMFORTABLE WITH THE SHOT,DON'T TAKE IT. We already get betrayed bad enough as it is. I LOVE HUNTING AND I ALWAYS WILL. There is nothing better than shooting something,skinning and eating it,and i mean the whole carcass.LIKE OL MATES DEERS HANGING IN THE SHED THERE IS NOTHING BETTER THAN HAVING A GREAT REWARD LIKE THAT IN THE SHED OR COOLROOM,than enjoying a couple of coldies together after the hunt. Just my 2 cents worth without trying too be a nag.Take care and safe hunting and shooting. :drinks:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by brett1868 » 23 May 2018, 11:24 pm

Gwion wrote:
brett1868 wrote:Funny enough, the govt fella mandates that Giant Bunnies be head shot...If its good enough for Skippy then it should be good enough for Bambi. Each situation will be different so skill and good judgement will be key to shot placement.


Very good point. From memory, the gov't fella also mandates that pro giant bunny shooters pass an accuracy test before being issued a permit. Also suggests that any tag permit properties get shooters to do an accuracy test before letting them loose on the giant bunnies.


I had to do an "accuracy" test to get approved to join the SSAA Farmers Assist program (WOFTAM). I think it was 5 into an inch with a rimfire @ 50m, I managed .3" cause it's not hard with the right tools. I've shot once with a few guys that I haven't shot with since, purely because they lacked good judgement on taking the shot. Might just be the exuberance of youth making bad decisions, but I don't agree that the animal should suffer for it. I've shot giant bunnies out past 1200m but everything was perfect and I've not taken shots @ 50m cause I deemed it too risky. Probably my point is that it all comes down to good judgement, the equipment used and the right mindset of the shooter.
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Member-Deleted » 23 May 2018, 11:57 pm

Its not a matter of which is best head or heart/lung shot I think all the shots mentioned have their place in hunting
It all comes down to what gun you have at the time what you are shooting the distance from the animal how comfortable you are taking the shot
any obstructions wind and probably many more
I head shoot when it's close ,clear ,still and i'm comfortable with doing so
When they are further out I heart/lung shoot to capture an ethical kill
I've never worried about pushing the limits like some people my aim is to put the animal on the ground as quick and as ethical as can be done
The saying is egos are free and worth nothing , accuracy comes with practice and worth doing
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 24 May 2018, 7:25 am

grandadbushy wrote:Its not a matter of which is best head or heart/lung shot I think all the shots mentioned have their place in hunting
It all comes down to what gun you have at the time what you are shooting the distance from the animal how comfortable you are taking the shot
any obstructions wind and probably many more
I head shoot when it's close ,clear ,still and i'm comfortable with doing so
When they are further out I heart/lung shoot to capture an ethical kill
I've never worried about pushing the limits like some people my aim is to put the animal on the ground as quick and as ethical as can be done
The saying is egos are free and worth nothing , accuracy comes with practice and worth doing


As usual GDB, you get to the heart and bottom line of the subject
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 24 May 2018, 7:26 am

:thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigfellascott » 24 May 2018, 1:43 pm

bigrich wrote:
grandadbushy wrote:Its not a matter of which is best head or heart/lung shot I think all the shots mentioned have their place in hunting
It all comes down to what gun you have at the time what you are shooting the distance from the animal how comfortable you are taking the shot
any obstructions wind and probably many more
I head shoot when it's close ,clear ,still and i'm comfortable with doing so
When they are further out I heart/lung shoot to capture an ethical kill
I've never worried about pushing the limits like some people my aim is to put the animal on the ground as quick and as ethical as can be done
The saying is egos are free and worth nothing , accuracy comes with practice and worth doing


As usual GDB, you get to the heart and bottom line of the subject


Yep just good ol commonsense at the end of the day, sadly it's not as common as it used to be and I fear it will only get worse with the dumbing down of society. :thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigrich » 24 May 2018, 6:23 pm

bigfellascott wrote:
bigrich wrote:
grandadbushy wrote:Its not a matter of which is best head or heart/lung shot I think all the shots mentioned have their place in hunting
It all comes down to what gun you have at the time what you are shooting the distance from the animal how comfortable you are taking the shot
any obstructions wind and probably many more
I head shoot when it's close ,clear ,still and i'm comfortable with doing so
When they are further out I heart/lung shoot to capture an ethical kill
I've never worried about pushing the limits like some people my aim is to put the animal on the ground as quick and as ethical as can be done
The saying is egos are free and worth nothing , accuracy comes with practice and worth doing


As usual GDB, you get to the heart and bottom line of the subject


Yep just good ol commonsense at the end of the day, sadly it's not as common as it used to be and I fear it will only get worse with the dumbing down of society. :thumbsup:


sad but true BFS, sad but true :(
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Gwion » 25 May 2018, 9:50 am

brett1868 wrote:
Gwion wrote:
brett1868 wrote:Funny enough, the govt fella mandates that Giant Bunnies be head shot...If its good enough for Skippy then it should be good enough for Bambi. Each situation will be different so skill and good judgement will be key to shot placement.


Very good point. From memory, the gov't fella also mandates that pro giant bunny shooters pass an accuracy test before being issued a permit. Also suggests that any tag permit properties get shooters to do an accuracy test before letting them loose on the giant bunnies.


I had to do an "accuracy" test to get approved to join the SSAA Farmers Assist program (WOFTAM). I think it was 5 into an inch with a rimfire @ 50m, I managed .3" cause it's not hard with the right tools. I've shot once with a few guys that I haven't shot with since, purely because they lacked good judgement on taking the shot. Might just be the exuberance of youth making bad decisions, but I don't agree that the animal should suffer for it. I've shot giant bunnies out past 1200m but everything was perfect and I've not taken shots @ 50m cause I deemed it too risky. Probably my point is that it all comes down to good judgement, the equipment used and the right mindset of the shooter.


Exactly. The people who take a shot and leave wounded animals are lack in one or all of these departments...
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Gwion » 25 May 2018, 9:53 am

grandadbushy wrote:Its not a matter of which is best head or heart/lung shot I think all the shots mentioned have their place in hunting
It all comes down to what gun you have at the time what you are shooting the distance from the animal how comfortable you are taking the shot
any obstructions wind and probably many more
I head shoot when it's close ,clear ,still and i'm comfortable with doing so
When they are further out I heart/lung shoot to capture an ethical kill
I've never worried about pushing the limits like some people my aim is to put the animal on the ground as quick and as ethical as can be done
The saying is egos are free and worth nothing , accuracy comes with practice and worth doing


:thumbsup:
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigpete » 27 May 2018, 1:54 pm

I'll say this. I'd much rather take a heart/lung shot in a hunting scenario as its a lot easier to make happen and the critter is just as dead in the end. Spotlighting or shooting from a rested position I'll virtually always head shot
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 28 May 2018, 7:50 pm

bigpete wrote:
Stix wrote:I think if you can head shoot then do it...especially if you're capable of a brain shot...!!
Know & stick to your limits though. :thumbsup:

ONLY if you're capable of a brain shot. Anywhere else leaves a wounded animal to die slowly


bigpete wrote:I'll say this. I'd much rather take a heart/lung shot in a hunting scenario as its a lot easier to make happen and the critter is just as dead in the end. Spotlighting or shooting from a rested position I'll virtually always head shot


bigpete wrote:ONLY if you're capable of a brain shot. Anywhere else leaves a wounded animal to die slowly


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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigpete » 28 May 2018, 8:08 pm

Yeah yeah,I mean brain shoot obviously
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by marksman » 28 May 2018, 9:26 pm

bigpete wrote:I'll say this. I'd much rather take a heart/lung shot in a hunting scenario as its a lot easier to make happen and the critter is just as dead in the end. Spotlighting or shooting from a rested position I'll virtually always head shot


not having a crack at you bigpete
but you have to wait till the end after a heart/lung shot, most animals shot in the heart/lung will get up and run or not even drop just bolt, so if they have run into thick bush try and track or get a dog, I have shot a heap of fallow that are crippled from bad shot placement, some with scares from being wounded, projectiles under the skin and I have killed some that when scun you could see holes where they have been blasted with a shot gun and the skin has not yet repaired itself, in this area we blame poachers from the big smoke shooting off the road,
I do chest shoot or neck shoot animals but would rather pass up a meat animal and be at a comfortable distance where I can brain shoot from a rested position or get closer to take the shot and take the whole animal with me, I feed a lot of pensioners with game meat and they love it, the cocky's like the idea of no waste, I bring back the bones for there dogs but do not feed the dogs gone wild that is a big problem for them
each to there own though, everyone should know what they are capable of, practice is the key where ever you place your shot
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by bigpete » 28 May 2018, 9:52 pm

And I've seen plenty of people take head shots where they've blown the nose or jaw off animals and they've run off into.the scrub to die of starvation.
As for chest shot animals,yes they often run,yes you do have to learn how to track. Part of being a decent hunter IMO
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by brett1868 » 28 May 2018, 11:08 pm

What about ass shots? I've shot a number of cats, dogs and foxes square up the chocolate starfish, is this ethical? :)
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Re: head shots vs heart/lung

Post by Stix » 28 May 2018, 11:39 pm

Graphic image warning....



Personally i believe there IS a difference between a head shot & a brain shot, & times when just a "headshot" & not a "brainshot" is perfectly acceptable & i am in practice the biggest preacher of a humane kill i know.

As with ALL facets of hunting, there are variable factors that dictate whether a head or brain or heart/lung or shoulder shot is taken (& yes i deem a shoulder shot different too-sometimes im try to pop the heart/polverise lungs, sometimes i cant so need to bust a shoulder).
Variables such as the target (for example rabbit/goat etc), the range, be it short or long range (& long range as defined by the individual whos finger is on the trigger-that may be 40yds for some & 400 for another), & also equally important is the cartridge being used.

Forgive the graphics, but i think they help explain my point...here are some examples...

This was a "headshot" (ive posted before) over the bonnet on a heavy bag & also using a rear bag. POA was middle of the head- not the brain, at 280 odd yds-my longest shot i played for so far with the 204). The rabbit got smacked to the ground, lifted its head off the ground for one full second then slumped & lights out...its legs & body never moved.
I consider this a humane kill from a headshot.
2018-05-28 20.18.59.jpg
Headshot @ 280 odd yds with 204
2018-05-28 20.18.59.jpg (545.32 KiB) Viewed 5903 times


The exit side clearly shows it was not a brain shot & was a "shock" kill, as with a heart/lung shot.
2018-05-28 20.19.45.jpg
280yd 204 Exit wound
2018-05-28 20.19.45.jpg (554.4 KiB) Viewed 5903 times


This is the exit wound of a played for & easy brain shot at 100yds with the 222 rimmed & a 40 grain BT.
2018-05-28 20.24.42.jpg
100yd brain shot 222R
2018-05-28 20.24.42.jpg (528.08 KiB) Viewed 5903 times


This was just a headshot @ 80 yds from a quick jump out the car & throw the rifle over the pillar of the windscreen.
Tension on the trigger, reticle in the middle of head & drop the sear...
2018-05-28 20.15.33.jpg
80yd headshot
2018-05-28 20.15.33.jpg (666.07 KiB) Viewed 5903 times

I knew the round would do this,but i wouldnt do it with my .22lr.

I could post many examples of each, but all these shots have been taken with many factors taken into account, including the cartridge.
I wouldnt take a head shot on a goat at 280 yds leaning over the windscreen pillar.

I did say "know your limits & stick to them"...& by your limits, i mean every factor in that given shot.

None of us are perfect...my last trip out i wounded my 3rd fox in 25 yrs, not something im terribly proud of, but compared to some of the fukn d1cks that gloat on yoochoob, i think my wounded fox statistics demonstrate my ethics.

Heres one ive posted before too, but what the hell..
Not one of these knew what hit them or moved an inch once hit...a combo of head & brain shots.
2017-12-18 00.37.42.jpg
All head shot, 22lr or 204.
2017-12-18 00.37.42.jpg (550.36 KiB) Viewed 5903 times


:)
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