Ranged shooting

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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jul 2018, 10:58 pm

Gwion wrote:You are sadly mistaken, BR.
I am the President of my club and we are actively trying to grow membership by increasing shooting options and extending range times. People aren't willing to pay more (at least around here) and what happens is we end up putting more time in for no real response from membership or the public with apparently ichy trigger fingers.

I also don't have time to volunteer. I have 200acres and a growing business to manage but if no-one makes time to put in, the club will disolve and the range will close.

Lets pretend we coukd open the range anytime we want and attract, say, 200 members. To set up as you describe, we would need a minimum of 5 staff to operate. To be open ass you suggest they would have to be pretty well full time jobs or split up among more people on part time basis. Most reasonably competant people wouldn't work for less that about $25/hr as a minimum and most want a lot more. So. 5 staff at about $50k/pa, plus range upkeep, say another $50k/pa. $300k. Even with 200 members, they would all have to commit $1500pa to support the range.....


Have you tried hiring the range out to private groups rather than simply being open full-time and hoping for drop-ins?
I am not suggesting being open full-time for drop-in custom. The range can be closed every day if you prefer, and simply open to suit whatever bookings you have. If you have two or three groups happy to shoot together then you pick up three-times the income for the one day.

What does $50K of annual range upkeep look like? How often do you have to grade the ranges and rebuild the butts? You'd probably have to pump the septic tanks out every few years.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jul 2018, 11:07 pm

Gwion wrote:Most NRAA affiliated clubs operate on private land that is leased at a token rate because the land owner wants to support the sport. If you think it is such a potential money spinner, why not turn your property into a range???


I'm not suggesting it's a "money spinner", it would likely be leased at the same token rate, the difference being, it would actually support all shooters in the region, rather than merely support the tiny handful that want to shoot a 20-round competition every month.

I would absolutely love to open our properties up to shooters, without becoming an approved range, but we are not placed in a viable position, and that position will certainly become worse as more and more housing blocks encroach toward us. I have looked at other blocks with that very intention though, and perhaps may find the block for it one day. For informal shooting, not for competitions. The properties here were bought by Rose's dad just after WW2, so it's not like we're ever going to sell up here.
Last edited by bladeracer on 09 Jul 2018, 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jul 2018, 11:09 pm

Gwion wrote:You are sadly mistaken, BR.
I am the President of my club and we are actively trying to grow membership by increasing shooting options and extending range times. People aren't willing to pay more (at least around here) and what happens is we end up putting more time in for no real response from membership or the public with apparently ichy trigger fingers.

I also don't have time to volunteer. I have 200acres and a growing business to manage but if no-one makes time to put in, the club will disolve and the range will close.


Does your club even allow its own members to use the ranges on their own time?
Do you allow the public to come and shoot informally even when you are open?
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Gwion » 09 Jul 2018, 11:24 pm

50k range upkeep was plucked out of the air so maybe over the too but you get where I'm coming from.

What you suggest may sound good but it is not practical from an operational point of view. To have staff on hand you need reliable income and regualar visitation. You can't expect people to drop everything just when you and your mates decide you wantto go for a shoot.

I concede that a lot of clubs are stuck in their ways but as i keep telling people when they whinge about clubs, associations, etc.. get in there and get involved if you want something to go differently.

I can tell you that even finding time to be open for a 4hr club shoot gets burdensome on those few who are willing to do anything and not just expect others to cater for their wants.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Gwion » 09 Jul 2018, 11:34 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Gwion wrote:You are sadly mistaken, BR.
I am the President of my club and we are actively trying to grow membership by increasing shooting options and extending range times. People aren't willing to pay more (at least around here) and what happens is we end up putting more time in for no real response from membership or the public with apparently ichy trigger fingers.

I also don't have time to volunteer. I have 200acres and a growing business to manage but if no-one makes time to put in, the club will disolve and the range will close.


Does your club even allow its own members to use the ranges on their own time?
Do you allow the public to come and shoot informally even when you are open?


A/ no, because as i have stated numerous times, our standing orders (that allow us to operate from the police) require us to have 2 qualified people to supervise and to only operate at times that have been publicly notified in advance.
B/ the public is welcome to contact us and join us when we shoot. We are happy to allocate them the same mound time that we get but we do not have the resources to pander to everyone's needs.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 09 Jul 2018, 11:54 pm

Gwion wrote:50k range upkeep was plucked out of the air so maybe over the too but you get where I'm coming from.

What you suggest may sound good but it is not practical from an operational point of view. To have staff on hand you need reliable income and regualar visitation. You can't expect people to drop everything just when you and your mates decide you wantto go for a shoot.

I concede that a lot of clubs are stuck in their ways but as i keep telling people when they whinge about clubs, associations, etc.. get in there and get involved if you want something to go differently.

I can tell you that even finding time to be open for a 4hr club shoot gets burdensome on those few who are willing to do anything and not just expect others to cater for their wants.


I'm not suggesting anybody need drop anything. A dozen people don't get together one day and suddenly decide to go shooting, it is something that is planned. A group of shooters decide we'd like to spend a day, let's say in the last week of August, shooting. Say we have ten licenced shooters. Do you have a day that suits where you can supply the required staff, and open the range for us? Yes? Great, let's book it then. No? Oh well, do you have a day available the week before or after that then? It seems pretty simple management. Done well, you could even take smaller bookings on spec, and then combine them all into one day when you have a minimum amount of interest. Especially now with social media. Your whole neighbourhood could jump on your website and see "they have Wednesday next week open for sixteen shooters, let's see if they can fit us in as well?" That does not require permanent staff on hand, it simply requires emailing the club members and asking if anybody is able to be on hand on a Wednesday at the end of August, for $250. For such a thing, you could just as easily have a shooter from a different club step in to supervise.

I'm not talking about trying to drum up business in an area where there are few shooters. I'm talking about opening the numerous ranges that are surrounded by shooters already, that aren't allowed to shoot there, or unable to because the place is never open for them. These ranges all sit totally wasted, day after day, despite the tens of thousands of shooters that could be enjoying them. This is what the SSAA should be doing for the sport, not selling advertising in their insurance gazette.

I agree completely. I don't see why this stuff has to be left to volunteers only though, unless it's one of those clubs that has a core cadre that simply do not want anybody else using "their" facilities. Shooters spend a great deal of money getting licenced, buying and securing their firearms, and ammunition, and travelling long distances to be able to use them. Provide them somewhere local and I'm sure they'll pay more for the pleasure of a _fun_ day's shooting, than go to an SSAA range, where it's cheap to shoot, but lacks the enjoyment factor.

As for getting in there and changing the club, I know very few people that would be willing to even attempt such a thing. As an outsider to try to change the mentality of those that put these clubs into this situation to begin with is a daunting, and entirely unpleasant task for anybody to consider. I would say that most, by far, of the shooters I have discussed ranges with, hate the idea of having to attend a range, even just to zero their rifles. Not because it's an onerous task at all, but because these clubs and ranges suck all the enjoyment out of it for them. Many shooters would rather go bush and zero their rifle on a suitable rock than have to spend an hour at a range being ordered to conform to somebody's idea of what's best for them.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 10 Jul 2018, 12:00 am

Gwion wrote:A/ no, because as i have stated numerous times, our standing orders (that allow us to operate from the police) require us to have 2 qualified people to supervise and to only operate at times that have been publicly notified in advance.
B/ the public is welcome to contact us and join us when we shoot. We are happy to allocate them the same mound time that we get but we do not have the resources to pander to everyone's needs.


So even if a member asked two people to supervise them one day, and gave the required advance notice of it, they still could not use the facilities?

Which is not very helpful for the public that can't attend when you are shooting. Has there ever been an instance at the club when a date was changed for some reason? Or is it just easier to cancel a shoot entirely than to do it a day earlier or later than scheduled? Say there was going to be a big funeral on the scheduled day and at least some people couldn't attend, but a good showing could be had if it came a day earlier.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Gwion » 10 Jul 2018, 12:39 am

I think you are being deliberately obtuse and I'm getting sick of repeating myself.

If a member is willing to take out a public notice of their intnt to shoot on a given day and to cover any working losses incurrred by the RO to supervise them during the working week, then i guess it is possible. Highly unlikely and pretty stupid but possible.

This discussion is going nowhere. If, as you say, shooters just want to go out bush and do what they want then you have answered all your own questions.

If you want a range that is open for anybody to come along and shoot hiwever they want and are willing to accept liability for random people turning up and getting pissed off for being asked or expected to follow some basic safety rules then have at it and set one up.

Just stop bagging out those of us who put themselves out in time, finances and legal responsibilty to offer something to the shooting community other than just whinging that nothing is good enough.

For most people it is always going to be:
Too far
Too expensive
To regulated
Too restrictive
Too not what i wasn't to do...

There will always be people who expect someone else to take responsibility for what they want to do.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 10 Jul 2018, 6:38 am

Gwion wrote:I think you are being deliberately obtuse and I'm getting sick of repeating myself.

If a member is willing to take out a public notice of their intnt to shoot on a given day and to cover any working losses incurrred by the RO to supervise them during the working week, then i guess it is possible. Highly unlikely and pretty stupid but possible.

This discussion is going nowhere. If, as you say, shooters just want to go out bush and do what they want then you have answered all your own questions.

If you want a range that is open for anybody to come along and shoot hiwever they want and are willing to accept liability for random people turning up and getting pissed off for being asked or expected to follow some basic safety rules then have at it and set one up.

Just stop bagging out those of us who put themselves out in time, finances and legal responsibilty to offer something to the shooting community other than just whinging that nothing is good enough.

For most people it is always going to be:
Too far
Too expensive
To regulated
Too restrictive
Too not what i wasn't to do...

There will always be people who expect someone else to take responsibility for what they want to do.


I think you have it backwards, you seem to be the one that keeps saying it's all too hard.
Nowhere did I say anything about allowing "anybody to come along and shoot however they want", or "for random people turning up", or anybody getting pissed off for being asked to follow some basic safety rules. My entire discussion has been about hiring a range, not random drop-ins, and not unsupervised larrikins, but people that have signed a contract with the club to use the range. If you want to put a bond in the contract to cover any potential vandalism or loss, then do so.

And where did I suggest "shooters just want to go out bush and do what they want"?

Just because some people are making the effort to operate a club means that all criticism is off-limits, even if their efforts are not necessarily working to the good of the club, or the sport in general? As I explained to my apprentices, in school you just need to do the best you can, but when people are paying you to do the job, the best you can do is not automatically good enough if you can't do a job that's worth what you are being paid for doing it.

I have actually put ideas forward that, if nothing else, might give some direction to clubs that might actually makes things better, but you just shoot everything down as too hard. Any endeavour that wants to be successful, instead of being happy to stagnate, needs to be continually looking at the world around them, and seeing where they fit into it.

As for your final comment, that makes no sense whatever. Nobody is expecting or demanding anybody else take responsibility for what others want. Where did I make any such implication in anything I put forward?

Yes, for most people, they are going to have to sacrifice various things to attend a range, that is to be expected with any recreational activity, but that is no reason to build a club that maximises those restrictions, instead of finding ways of minimising them. But the primary goal has to be to make it enjoyable, without pleasure, it becomes far harder to get people to accept the difficulties as being worth the effort and expense. The more pleasure there is in attending the range, the less all of those problems matter. If a shooter can think to himself, "I have to mow the lawns, but I'd much rather go to the range", but decide mowing the lawns to be the more enjoyable way to spend the day, then the range is doing something wrong.

Why would somebody spend ten of thousands of dollars, and spend weeks in hospital, year after year, to race motorcycles, if there wasn't enormous enjoyment from doing it? All motorcycle racing is is turning huge sums of money into noise, late-night engine builds and repairs, no holidays or free time, and constant pain from accumulating injuries, and yet we keep doing it until we no longer can. All recreation requires some degree of sacrifice, we just weigh it against what we get in return for it.

You actually said that your club "...would happily open the range for such events...", but then recanted in every way possible.

There are reasons why shooters have to take to forums with threads like this one, trying to find places they can shoot, and clubs should be taking that on board if they want to support the shooting sports. Do it well, and it wouldn't matter if there were no shooters anywhere in your area, they would happily travel to your facility if it offered what they are looking for. There is nothing at all to be gained by cutting yourself off from tens of thousands of shooters that are not interested in joining your club because it offers them nothing they want. Ask the shooters what they want, then find ways of offering that to them.

For me, I just want a facility that I can bring my rifles to, when it suits me, even if I have to book months in advance, and pay hundreds of dollars for the privilege, and simply spend the day enjoying them all. I really can't see what is so damned difficult about that, especially when compared to the amount of work that has to go into actually organising and running a competitive shoot instead.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by Sergeant Hartman » 10 Jul 2018, 8:19 am

Lol this thread is going in circles.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by sungazer » 10 Jul 2018, 12:20 pm

I could probably arrange something along those lines of Range Hire. What calibres and distances did you have in mind? The range officially is restricted to 8mm But if only one gun was larger and not a 50cal or something in that really big high power class we have made exceptions. Range would be out near Euroa.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 10 Jul 2018, 7:01 pm

sungazer wrote:I could probably arrange something along those lines of Range Hire. What calibres and distances did you have in mind? The range officially is restricted to 8mm But if only one gun was larger and not a 50cal or something in that really big high power class we have made exceptions. Range would be out near Euroa.


Thanks SG,
I'm just trying to get over the hump of a rather nasty cold, so sitting up typing and thinking isn't much fun just now :-)

Ideally, somewhere my brother and myself, and any other licenced shooters (known personally of course) that might enjoy a day of shooting, can stretch the legs of our rifles, but also just fit in some simple target grouping at various ranges, but no further than 1000m at most, I'm sure 500m would be more than sufficient. I have four 8x57's (which are 8.2mm), but the .38 Special and .44 Magnum would be the biggest centrefires, plus .45 muzzle loader, and maybe some 12g to top it off. Milsurps plus most of the smaller calibers, .204, .223, .243, 7mm-08, .308, and perhaps .300 WinMag. If the 8's can't be accommodated for legal reasons I can live with that. Plus of course, a bunch of .22's. And somewhere I can back a vehicle right up to the mound, rather than be told I have to cart dozens of rifles across a carpark in concealed carry bags.

Of course, range hire would not have be on a weekday if a weekend better suited most of us. My brother currently finds it impossible to get time off during the week, for example.

I can happily shoot here, but many other shooters have nowhere they can shoot in a similar informal fashion. I'm not looking for a social outing with a bit of a shooting and a lot of chatting, but the opposite, a lot of shooting, and maybe a bit of chatting :-)

If we can camp on-site, or close by, the night before, and perhaps the night after shooting, then that makes the travelling easier I would think. Euroa is only about four-hours for me, but nine for my brother. If there is state forest nearby then we could add some hunting into the trip, before or after the shooting. Rose might even come too as she could go up to Albury to catch up with family while I'm having a play.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by sungazer » 10 Jul 2018, 7:16 pm

We have people camp at the range when we have other events so that is not a problem. Other than there are no showers and very basic toilets clean and not long drops. Obviously no shooting at night only when Range Officer is there. Cars can be driven to the mounds. Range out to 600 yrds. Can shoot any distance out to that. At 500 yrds a 100 target mound is also possible and at 600 yrds a 200 yrd target is also possible. Other than that it is one distance at a time as we change shooting position. Targets stay at the Butt mound. None of the Calibres you have are jumping out at me as alarm bells. I am not familiar with the state forest around the area but I believe there are some close by.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 10 Jul 2018, 7:17 pm

I am assuming that, like most things, it would be cheaper the more people attended, but the logistics and safety of all becomes more involved. I would think, and having virtually no experience of range management, that more than a dozen or so would start to become less manageable. While obviously three or four shooters can pretty much look after themselves, while still keeping an eye on each other, I think much more than that would probably have to split up into groups, and either take it in turns at the mound, or shoot a little separated from the other groups, to ensure the safety of all.

I'm also assuming that the basics of an RO, and insurances, are a requirement for even one shooter, but there may be a level at which those take a step up, perhaps requiring more supervision and such? Thus, a farmer might be happy to take a fixed fee regardless of how many shooters attend, I can see that a range probably cannot.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 10 Jul 2018, 7:26 pm

sungazer wrote:We have people camp at the range when we have other events so that is not a problem. Other than there are no showers and very basic toilets clean and not long drops. Obviously no shooting at night only when Range Officer is there. Cars can be driven to the mounds. Range out to 600 yrds. Can shoot any distance out to that. At 500 yrds a 100 target mound is also possible and at 600 yrds a 200 yrd target is also possible. Other than that it is one distance at a time as we change shooting position. Targets stay at the Butt mound. None of the Calibres you have are jumping out at me as alarm bells. I am not familiar with the state forest around the area but I believe there are some close by.


It sounds perfect.
I am well used to digging a hole when I need a poo, so basic toilets won't be a problem :-)
By "one distance at a time" is it allowable to have targets set up at 50, 100, 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600yds to be shot as we wish, before making the range safe and going out to patch?
I would prefer to be able to shoot a bunch of different rifles before going out to patch, simply to save time. If we're restricted to only shooting 600yds for a string then that would effectively rule out shooting some of my rifles during that session.
For example, I might like to shoot the 7mm-08 starting at 100yds and walking it out to 600yds, without having to cool the range between each.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by sungazer » 10 Jul 2018, 7:37 pm

No Targets can only be put in two places the main mound is quite big and would allow for quite a few targets. There is a smaller mound that could also be used. Hence the 500-100 combination and the 600-200 yrd combination. Otherwise it is targets stay in one place and all people have to move. Its not a range that is set up to be a shooting gallery. I would think up to 8 people would be max at any one time on the mound.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by bladeracer » 10 Jul 2018, 7:46 pm

sungazer wrote:No Targets can only be put in two places the main mound is quite big and would allow for quite a few targets. There is a smaller mound that could also be used. Hence the 500-100 combination and the 600-200 yrd combination. Otherwise it is targets stay in one place and all people have to move. Its not a range that is set up to be a shooting gallery. I would think up to 8 people would be max at any one time on the mound.


Oh, I see now what you mean. I don't see that being too big a problem though.
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Re: Ranged shooting

Post by simmo » 23 Jul 2018, 6:51 am

LTneo wrote:He all. Im new to shooting but getting into it for the joy of ranged target shooting. I currently have to rifles. a Marlin XT .22 and a Howa 1500 .223
I'm looking to work my way to a distance of between 500-700 yards and would appreciate any advise. i have got both sighted to 100 yards. im not perfect yet and not going to move back till i can hit the target dead center every time. But as i said. looking for any advise that i can get in regards to accuracy, tips and tricks people have picked up over the years and also good places to shoot. I'm in gippsland in Victoria, i can sometime's shot at my parents farm but looking for somewhere else i can shoot. again, thanks for any advise


G’day mate

There is a lot of good advice here and the way you are practicing is a sensible approach. If your parents farm is limited in range, For what it’s worth, my advice is to get in touch with a club/range , as has been said already, (Moe/Traf sounds like you closest) that shoots long and just out there and shoot long! I started Full bore target shooting about 7yrs and it was a steep learning curve (straight into a .308, sling and off the elbows...first shoot was at 500M). I only reccomend one the target clubs is because the amount of experience on offer is significant and people will usually assist you with learning.

You mention that you have a .223 Howa 1500? If it’s the 1:9 twist you will be able to shoot the Outback 69gn HPBT factory ammo (made by Australian Munitions). These rounds work really well as target rounds and will shoot 400-500M comfortably. They are available at most shops. I have them to very good effect from my Tikka factory Varmint rifle.

Once you start shooting out past 100 you need to learn to account for wind and best way to understand that is just to shoot at the longer ranges and watch what happens. You will see your shot get blown all over the place in windy conditions and that is where the learning begins. I have started shooting .223 over long ranges in the last 12mths myself and it is entirely possible out of factory rifles.

It all comes down to experience, observation and practice with the long range game but is very rewarding.

Feel free to PM me any questions.

Cheers
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