Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Sep 2019, 8:14 am

If you are keen on a 308, why not ditch the 30/06 you have on the way and put your money into the best rifle and optics you can. Bit pointless having both a 30/06 and a 308.

The main thing about competition is to have a go and look for continual improvement. Don't get discouraged as it is a humbling sport.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by Vicko » 09 Sep 2019, 10:53 am

Fair call.
But the 30-06 has some fairly serious sentimental value. And its a fairly light weight stock, so ideal for stalking and medium range - not for long range or target stuff. At some point I'll take it to the range to practise on, but its not really a range rifle. I can practise with it at home out to 200m.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by TassieTiger » 09 Sep 2019, 11:31 am

Your 30-06 should happily shoot 150's to maybe 180's hunting projectiles...a 308 will shoot 150's to 165's or thereabouts....thus to my thinking, a 308 seems a strange calibre to settle on given your getting an 06 regardless.
A 260 or 270 or 6.5 will shoot 120 / 140gns quite happily to longer distances with very good BC and give you much more versatility both in the field and at the range when considered in conjunction with your 06.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by Vicko » 09 Sep 2019, 1:15 pm

I wont be using the 30-06 in any comps though (I don't think I can even if I wanted can I??).
It is quite a light stock and I don't think will be suitable accuracy wise for longer distances.
And the 6.5 will still put me into F Open class against serious custom rigs.. I know that I'm only really 'competing against myself'. And that I'm doing this to improve my skills. But I also know I'm a competitive bastard and will want to be on a relatively even playing field...

Hmm.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 09 Sep 2019, 5:48 pm

Yep I think you will find building a custom 308 the best route in the long run. Use the club gun until you can get yourself sorted.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Sep 2019, 6:50 pm

sungazer wrote:Yep I think you will find building a custom 6mm BR Norma the best route in the long run. .


I fixed it for you. :shock:
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 09 Sep 2019, 8:12 pm

This is one of the reasons that F-open can get expensive as I don't disagree with you for ranges up to 500 yrds on a calm day The 6mm cartridges show a real advantage. Then the 6.5 mm either 47 or Lap is good for the 500 to 800 yrds with a bit of weather. However after that the 7mm SAUM come out to play at the Longs 8,900 and 1000 yrds they may even be used on the shorter ranges if weather is s**t and the comp worth winning.

Now if you are Shooting F standard you know everyone is shooting a 308 and shooting 155 bullets.

So I have nothing against other calibers and again having places to shoot is the most important thing to get right first.

Also don't dismiss the 308 as a precision round there are often very few points difference over a multi-day competition between F-open and F std depending who is shooting. It is a tough gig being competitive here in Australia as we have some or a lot of the worlds top shooters competing in these local club day comps.

Also pretty much any factory or factory gun put together form parts is not really going to cut it against the Target customs in F Open. That class does attract the shooters with more money. You can get away with a re-barreled Remington 700 in the NATO F classes and compete on pretty much a level playing field other than the old blokes at the top really know how to shoot.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by TassieTiger » 09 Sep 2019, 8:43 pm

Don’t discard the 308? The 06 held plenty of 1000 yard records for a looong time and not necessarily from heavy barrels...
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Sep 2019, 9:17 pm

My thinking is that he wants to try some competition shooting with a rifle he can use for hunting. He has a 30/06 and it is easier to shoot a 6mm or 6.5. If he wants to shoot F standard he could use a 223 with 80 grain Bergers and if he wants to move up later he can. Nothing could be easier to load and shoot than the little 223.

In regards to the 6mm BR I agree that out to 600 there is nothing that has a better record. Even at 1000 yards the BR style cases have excelled holding many world records including I believe the current record one inch group shot in 2018.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 10 Sep 2019, 8:14 am

Only issue with the 223 is that to shoot the 80 grn bullets he would need a 1.8 twist barrel, The best you can find on factory rifles is 1.10 perhaps a 1.9 the 1.9 you could probably stabilize a 72grn. Strictly speaking there is a list of bullets that are approved for shooting its a stupid rule that will probably get changed soon but at the moment for 223 and 308 there are specified bullets that must be used.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by TassieTiger » 10 Sep 2019, 12:46 pm

Steyr pro varmint 223 is a 1:9 and has a set trigger - boringly accurate.
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 10 Sep 2019, 1:09 pm

Yes but its not a 1.8 which is needed to shoot the Berger 80 80.5 or 82 grn Target bullets. A 1.7 twist is also used by some target shooters.
The factory 223s are further gap between factory and target than what a factory and target 308 if you understand what I mean.

https://www.q-store.com.au/shop/categor ... -22-cal-51
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by Vicko » 10 Sep 2019, 1:48 pm

The club has a savage 223 that I might try as well, but that doesn't tick a lot of boxes for me hunting wise I wouldn't have thought. Too small for anything much bigger than foxes and a 204 would be a better option for around that size anyway if I was buying one around that size.

If the 6.5 was eligible for more than just F Open it would tick all boxes. I'd go an LA102/105/TAC A1 depending on how much coin I could muster. But it isn't. A 308 would give me a lot more options. Including using it to hunt anything up to Sambar with.

It seems there's a PSR comp that meets in Castlemaine 4 times a year. I don't know much about that. But if it allowed a 6.5 then that could be a goer. I think the PSR comps allow pretty much anything up to .30 calibre? That might suit me at this stage anyway as that type of shooting would really translate to good practise for hunting I'd imagine.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 10 Sep 2019, 6:21 pm

sungazer wrote:Only issue with the 223 is that to shoot the 80 grn bullets he would need a 1.8 twist barrel, The best you can find on factory rifles is 1.10 perhaps a 1.9 the 1.9 you could probably stabilize a 72grn. Strictly speaking there is a list of bullets that are approved for shooting its a stupid rule that will probably get changed soon but at the moment for 223 and 308 there are specified bullets that must be used.


There must be a few manufactures that make a factory 1:8 twist barrel for a 223. I have a Tikka Varmint which I mentioned earlier which has a true 1:8 and shoots 80 grain Bergers very well. I have used them to shoot respectable groups out to 700. I used it in a 500 metre fly to shoot a best group of just over three inches.

While no 6mmBR, the little 223 is pretty capable and many shooters have used them successfully out at 1000. I have used it for bigger things than a fox and for those that are too big you always have your 30/06.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by TassieTiger » 10 Sep 2019, 6:25 pm

Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 10 Sep 2019, 6:26 pm

If you are interested in PRS and a 6.5mm you should check out the 6.5 Guys.com.

https://www.65guys.com/
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 20 Sep 2019, 9:23 pm

Check out this rifle, great looking thing from Tac Ops. The price will make your eyes water. The bloke is selling one with a Sergeon action and one with a Remington 700. His add said he was tired of the sport after buying two rifles for near enough $30,000.

https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=158854

https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=154588
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by Vicko » 21 Sep 2019, 1:31 pm

Jesus Christ. Thats um. Spendy.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 21 Sep 2019, 2:41 pm

It is difficult to find a page on the web that tells you what they, Tac Ops, cost new. They look very well put together using quality components but for $6,000 you could build your own using a Stiller, Defiance or BAT Machine action and other quality components. Still they would be very nice things to have in the safe.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by marksman » 21 Sep 2019, 3:29 pm

SCJ429 wrote:Check out this rifle, great looking thing from Tac Ops. The price will make your eyes water. The bloke is selling one with a Sergeon action and one with a Remington 700. His add said he was tired of the sport after buying two rifles for near enough $30,000.

https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=158854

https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=154588


they say money talks and bullsh!t walks :lol:
I wonder how they shoot :lol:
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 21 Sep 2019, 7:04 pm

I have seen some pictures online which show a neat little three shot group some bloke produced with his Tac Ops rifle. You would think if you can stick three into one hole you would be confident enough to shoot two more.

I see Tac Ops guarantee 1/4 MOA and for the price and the components used you would hope to do better than that.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 21 Sep 2019, 8:08 pm

I dont understand how is the gun a Tac Ops if it is built on a Surgeon or Remmington 700 action. Normally that is what you would call the model of the gun no matter what barrels or stocks you put them in. Dont know what he spent his money on for them to cost those sort of $. Full custom target rifles built using the same components or better cost way less.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 22 Sep 2019, 8:16 am

sungazer wrote:I dont understand how is the gun a Tac Ops if it is built on a Surgeon or Remmington 700 action. Normally that is what you would call the model of the gun no matter what barrels or stocks you put them in. Dont know what he spent his money on for them to cost those sort of $. Full custom target rifles built using the same components or better cost way less.


Perhaps the name Tactical Operations appeals to a market segment more than Surgeon. Or Remington.

I have often wondered why people would buy a Accuracy International or a Barrett over a BAT or Stiller. The connection to the military must appeal to this demographic.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 22 Sep 2019, 8:34 am

At least the Accuracy International or a Barrett over a BAT are their own designed actions, stocks the works. If Tac Ops is just the company that assembles them as in the same as any gunsmith you could argue that they provide exceptional quality work. On the other side of that is of course there are plenty of gunsmiths that provide exceptional quality work that make world class competition rifles and Australia has plenty of World champion winners so we have some good gunsmiths.

I thing that sometimes these companies like Stiller and Bat have made a name for themselves when they produced their own designed action that was successful in competition but that is just one of the actions in their line up. Then they also sell the Remington 700 clone jazzed up shiny with a few extras perhaps like fluting give it a Tactical name and this is the main seller. I know it is the case with Stiller as I tried to purchase a comp action off them and the reply was we have none in stock and don't intend on making any more. It still featured on the website in bold with great stories attached to it. In the end a Remington 700 is still a Remington 700 of course they are well proven action and can work exceptional well but the do lack a few of the features that can really make an action great.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 22 Sep 2019, 9:32 am

I got to use a BAT action in a comp once and it was the most beautiful thing I have ever shot. When I look at what the winners are using here in Australia it is usually a Stolle, BAT Machine, Barnard or Nesika. While these are improvements on the basic Remington designs, they are a big step up on the factory action.

I did not know that Stiller stopped producing competition actions but for a hunting and crossover rifle they would be an excellent platform.

I agree with you, if I had $12,000 to spend I would get my local gunsmith to build me two custom rifles which would be world class.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 22 Sep 2019, 11:08 am

Even the Surgeon actions are still about the same as any other custom action. In F class and Target rifle it would be Barnard by a country mile then perhaps the Kelby Stolles then it would be much lower numbers perhaps a Bat here or there, there would be a few older actions certainly the RPA quad lock would be in there.

If you have a look at the actions like the Stiller when they start calling them Tactical the clearances / tolerances start opening up. For them it is an easier action to make and the customer I think, thinks it is actually better in some way.

Yes I have used a Bat to and the bolt certainly fits like a glove and slides like on ice.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 22 Sep 2019, 12:18 pm

sungazer wrote:If you have a look at the actions like the Stiller when they start calling them Tactical the clearances / tolerances start opening up. For them it is an easier action to make and the customer I think, thinks it is actually better in some way.

.


I found that with Accuracy International when a friend brought me some once fired Lapua brass he got after an Army shooting comp. it wouldn't fit in his chamber even after I sized it with a small base body die. It was because of the generous chamber tolerances of the AI rifle so that they will feed dirty ammo. I still don't understand how they shoot well but if they don't or are not allowed to use reloaded ammo they don't care.
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Oct 2019, 5:22 pm

Have you made a decision regarding your rifle Vicko?
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 24 Oct 2019, 7:44 pm

Here is a nice Barnard if you are a lefty or if you can cycle the bolt with your left hand and shoot right handed.

https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=161024
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Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by WookyMysta » 25 Oct 2019, 6:22 pm

Hi Vikko,

I was in the same position as you. I wanted a Tikka .308 as my pet hunting rifle for years. Then I stumbled upon the Lithgow la102.

I finally decided that the la102 with APC dool aloominum chassy (total gun porn) was the one.

RULE # 1..... Shoulder the rifle with your eyes closed and use the force. What ever FEELS best is what you drop your $$ on.

For me, the la102 APC was waaaay too heavy, even without a scope. It felt too short and didn't FIT properly. So I decided on la102 .308 Laminate.

With my eyes closed, and shouldering the rifle, it was the Goldilocks factor. JUST RITE. But each to there own.

Depends what you want to do with a rifle determines what you buy. Bench rest or hunting. That's why its called a Crossover.

If you want to shoot paper at long range, the Lithgow is a great choice without spending thousands and thousand of $$.

If you want an amazingly accurate rifle for hunting, its hard to go past the Lithgow.

The action of the Lithgow is as good, if not slightly better than a Tikka.

Shoulder the rifle, use the force, and buy the Lithgow. You won't regret it.

Just my $0.02.
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