Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Target shooting and range information. Competitive shooting, ranges, competitions, clubs and events. Free shooting targets.

Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by Vicko » 19 Aug 2019, 7:51 am

Tried to post this the other day but it didnt go up for some reason.

Target noob here. Never done any kind of long range stuff but keen to try. But I can't justify a target only setup at this point, so I'm looking at purchasing a that I can also use for longer range hunting which will mostly be foxes out past 250. I have other options for inside that. And this doesn't need to be a stalking rifle as I have a light stocked 30-06 on the way.

I got along to a local range for a look on the weekend and saw a fella with a brand new Howa chassis setup shooting a good grouping at 300.

So I'm after some recommendations. I know it'll be a compromise, but I'm not looking to make the Aussie squad...

Had been looking at more traditional looking rigs for longer range stuff like the Ruger Hawkeye Varmint Target (I do like a grey laminate stock), or Hawkeye FTW Hunter, or even the Ruger Hawkeye Long Range Target or Browning X Bolt Max Long Range (neither of the speckle paint stocks do anything for me though..), but its been pointed out that I should also be considering the Lithgow 102 or even 105 Woomera. I'm assuming the 105 would be a better option than the 102. At which point things like the Howa chassis or Ruger Precision rifles etc should probably also be considered. I'd never previously considered chassis rifles as I prefer the look of traditional shaped stocks but I'm probably open to them if they're significantly more accurate.

And then I did come across the new chapter 23 rule for sporting/hunting rifles that I'd want to fall into: http://www.nraa.com.au/wp-content/uploa ... l-2019.pdf

No real idea what sort of scope I'd be looking for either. And I'm new to the world of scope turrets to. Only just learning about them.. so some advice there would be handy too.

Thats a lot - told you I was a target noob. Let me know what you think. Cheers.
Vicko
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Victoria

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 19 Aug 2019, 11:13 am

Yes all the VRA ranges have moved into a more modern approach. So your hunting rifles can be used on the range in a class of their own. Likewise a new shooter could use a crossover rifle in that class untli he feels he would like to change into another class. The only real difference in doing so would possibly changing the scoring rings on the target.

What area are you in @Vicko ? It is a wise choice to visit the range a few times even without a gun to get a feel of how its done. nearly all clubs have a well set up visitors gun or someone will loan you a gun. A note is that you will have to use Factory ammo Match ammo that the club has which is specially made. This may or may not occur depending on calibre (another thing to take note of while at the range) for the ammo it's just to take away the responsibility or liability should something go wrong.
sungazer
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1525
Other

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 19 Aug 2019, 8:29 pm

Go and have a look at some competitions and see what equipment they use. Ninety percent of scopes are Nightforce, they own that market segment.

Most competition stocks are a composite material or ply. For a cross over rifle a chassis make sense.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3208
New South Wales

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 07 Sep 2019, 2:33 pm

Did you get your self anything Vic?
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3208
New South Wales

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by Vicko » 07 Sep 2019, 6:22 pm

Not yet. I'm leaning pretty heavily towards the LA102 or a Tikka chassis setup in 308 after having more discussions with folks.. Had a good look at a few rifles the other week in store. Howa's didn't feel nearly as well built, Lithgow action felt better than the Tikka which surprised me. I realise the way they shoot might be another story, but I do like the fact that Lithgow's are home grown as well and I didn't mind the weight to shoulder. That said I didn't really like the LA102 stock, so I'm looking for alternatives. I'm slightly in love with the GRS stocks, but they don't make them for LA102's. So I'm considering an MDT chassis, either ESS or LSS. I'm assuming that would marginally improve accuracy and decrease my strays..

Been to the Geelong range a couple of times. First for just a look without shooting and then today with my Dad for a delayed fathers day present.
I shot my CZ457 .17HMR today and confirmed its liking for 17gn loads over 20gn. Comfortably under 1MOA at 100m with it today on either CCI VNT 17gn and Hornady Vmax 17gn. Interestingly the Hornady Vmax's were a bit quicker than the CCI even though they're supposed to be the other way around if you believe the box.. Hornady's averaging around 2450fps and the CCIs around 2350. Pretty happy with that. I had to dial in a fair bit of drift though. Dad shot his CZ 223 with some new ammo that wasn't as good as his old stuff. Seems they might not be making his preferred load of American Eagle 50gn anymore..?

The guys at Geelong were great today. One of them even let me fire a string with his Sako tactical setup at 500m using his handloads. Managed to shoot a 54.2 with winds between 25-30km/hr. Pretty stoked with that for a first crack at it. Great fun! Learnt quite a bit. So I've no doubt I'll be back. Probably going to try a few more times with the club rifles and ask lots more questions before I finally make up my mind as to what direction I want to go.

I'm still trying to figure out what the weight of the LA102 stock versus something like the MDT LSS or ESS chassis. Or even the KRG Xray that they use for the LA105. Because if they'd bring it up to similar weight to the LA105 or some way in between, then that could be a good option. Or.. I could just get a 105 and be done with it... I figure the benefit of getting a LA102 and a chassis setup would be that I could switch it back to the original stock if I decided to not use it for range work anymore if I got really serious... I don't think I'd want to be competing against guys with considerably more budget than me, so perhaps the 105 would be a good option. Does anyone here know of anyone thats got one..?
Vicko
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Victoria

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by Vicko » 07 Sep 2019, 8:55 pm

Image from iOS (1).jpg
Image from iOS (1).jpg (752.49 KiB) Viewed 7910 times


There's the string :)
Vicko
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Victoria

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 07 Sep 2019, 8:57 pm

By the time you have paid for a Lithgow and a MDT chassis you are in for $3,000, which is also what you could get a Tikka Tac A1 for. I have used the Tikka in 6.5 CM and there was a lot to like.

For an extra thousand you could make an offer on the Stiller action that the Barn has for sale or a secondhand Sako TRG.

I use a Tikka for 500 metre shooting using a 6mm, which kicks the butts of anyone using a 30 cal.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3208
New South Wales

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by Vicko » 07 Sep 2019, 10:40 pm

Fair point.
The LA102's I see with chassi's are around the 2.5 mark. Which is not much under an LA105.
The Tac A1 weighs only half a kilo less than the 105 so its not really something I'd use for both target and hunting I wouldn't think.
You reckon the Tac A1 would be more accurate than the 105? Hard to find anyone with experience of them yet.

Oh - part of the thinking of going 308 now is so that I can use it in more classes. I think theres some classes that the 6.5 can't run in?
Vicko
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Victoria

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 07 Sep 2019, 10:57 pm

I don't have any experience with the 105 but it is possible that it is as good as any Scandinavian rifle. Many hunters on this forum will tell you that they would only use a light rifle for stalking. I find I can walk around with a Tikka Varmint and I am not the fittest or youngest here. That same rifle can shoot one inch at 300 and three inches at 500.

If you use your hunting rifle in some friendly competition shooting you may find that your ability in the field improves out of sight. It has done wonders for me.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3208
New South Wales

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 07 Sep 2019, 11:14 pm

I am not sure what competition you are looking at, F Class Open will let you shoot a 6.5. You will do much better with a 6mm or 6.5 than anything bigger. The best thing for dipping your toe in the water is a 223. You would be surprised with how well you can do at middle distances with the humble 223.

The Tikka Varmint I was talking about above is a 223 in a chassis. It has shot over 4,000 rounds and still can put some respectable groups together. The low recoil of the 223 makes it easier to shoot than a 308 or even a 6.5 CM. If you want to move up after a 223 you can sell it and get most of your money back.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3208
New South Wales

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by Vicko » 08 Sep 2019, 9:39 am

Yes I like the idea of practising a lot with a rifle I'll be hunting with too. I might shoot the club 223 for a bit, and then the 308s and see how I go before I make the call.
The thinking with going 308 was that I'd also be able to compete in F standard and F/TR as well as F open. 6.5 can only compete in open I think - and is then competing against the bigger dollar custom rifles which is then not quite an even playing field. AND the fact that I'd be able to use it for any type of hunting around here.

I'm still trying to get my head around what classes mean what and what weights can be used. I figure a scope would add a kilo and then a light bipod might be 500grams. The big adjustable wide suckers that look like car jacks they seem to use would have to weigh significantly more I'd imagine. maybe another kilo? So thats maybe 3 kilo on top of the rifle weight... which would take an LA105 or TAC A1 right up to an 8kilo setup which would be just under F/TR's 8.25kg limit.
Vicko
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Victoria

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Sep 2019, 10:34 am

I would rather come last shooting a caliber of my choice than be told I have to shoot a 308.

The 223 makes an excellent practice caliber and will teach you a lot about reading the wind. You will probably do better initially with a 223 shooting 80 grain Bergers compared to shooting a 308.

I went to a 300 meter competition with a 204 hunting rifle. It was windy and everyone told me I would struggle, they were right and it wasn't pretty but I beat every 308 there. The 308 gets knocked around by the wind too and it came down to who read the wind better.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3208
New South Wales

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 08 Sep 2019, 2:27 pm

There a bit of 308 hate in there for what ever reason. But its not justified.
sungazer
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1525
Other

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Sep 2019, 6:59 pm

I don't own a 308 and there is nothing that it does badly but as a competition round it is not my first choice. Any new shooter should look at other calibers.

I am not a fan of the 223 either but for practice and starting out it will build confidence and give you a chance to build your skills.

I find some 308 fans are very defensive and cannot admit the limitations of this case. I particularly enjoy beating those types of guys who often talk down to me before the comp but are full of excuses afterward.

I am sure you are not one of those guys Sungazer but I am sure you can see my point. What would you recommend for a guy starting out in F class?
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3208
New South Wales

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 08 Sep 2019, 8:38 pm

My original Opinion was to go and spend a fair bit of time at the range is closest to you. in your district or you just like best. See what they are shooting as in class and distances, talk to them about inter clubs comps ect,

I would only recommend the 223 if the person was very lightly built or had an injury. this would be in question form. Next explain about what F -open is and how it is a class that if you want to be competitive on a Sate or National level again it will be a very expensive and possibly a longer learning curve.

That leaves us with the 308 which would be my recommendation F Standard you are allowed up to a 10.5kg rifle that will really dampen any felt recoil you can put is on a wide David Bipod as you are allowed another 2 killos for this attachment. This is the most level playing field and one of the cheapest. Probably the largest in Aus for that reason nearly lone, I think we like the fair playing field at a fair price entry point as well.

F-TR can be a bit more expensive you are allowed to use any weight projectile. This usually dictates that uou will use different projectiles during a competition and hence a rifle optimized for those. This could be 3-4 rifles This again really tilts the playing field. The FTR -rifle is only allowed to be 8.25kg overall including all attachments like bi pods.

.
sungazer
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1525
Other

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 08 Sep 2019, 9:39 pm

Do you think there is any merit in getting a chassis rifle in 6.5 CM and trying your hand in Metalic Silhouette, 500 Fly or F Class open?

He wants to dip his toe in the water with some comp shooting and use what he learns to knock over some foxes at longer ranges.

Would a 6mm shooting 105 or a 6.5 shooting 140 have a ballistic advantage and be easier to shoot than a 308 shooting 155?

I don't think that anyone will be competitive for many years no matter what discipline they decide to have a go at. In my opinion you will do better, spend less money and learn more using a factory rifle chambered in 223. Many top level guys use a 223 to practice with, I am not at that level but who am I to tell them they should use something bigger.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3208
New South Wales

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by Vicko » 08 Sep 2019, 10:54 pm

I'm just on 6ft, just over 85kilo. Shooting the 308 at the range the other day was no problem physically. There was a bit of weight to it though to dampen it with the heavy stock and bipod.

In terms of classes - I'm not sure, but as sungazer mentioned it was suggested to stay away from F Open simply as I'd be competing against big dollar setups that would have me already behind the eight ball. At first I was looking at a 6.5, but then it seems like you're then limited to 308 or 223 in F standard and FTR? Didn't know of 500 Fly until I read it there. Not sure of how many local events there are in that. Just reading up a little more about PRS, but had never heard that mentioned in any of the local ranges. Sounds fun though.

I reckon I've only got budget for one more rifle, so I'm going to need it to be as flexible as possible. And I'll want to use this whole exercise to practise, so I can be confident at taking longer shots on game bigger than just foxes ultimately, which also makes the case for a 308.
Vicko
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Victoria

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 09 Sep 2019, 8:00 am

Metallic Silhouette and 500 Fly are more often than not shot at different range's to any of the F-class. Hence the first step is check out the ranges close by to you as they will probably dictate what you shoot more than anything, PRS is a once maybe twice a year shot in your state. It is a class that at the moment is being run for profit or loss I dont know by a person or group of people.
sungazer
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1525
Other

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Sep 2019, 8:14 am

If you are keen on a 308, why not ditch the 30/06 you have on the way and put your money into the best rifle and optics you can. Bit pointless having both a 30/06 and a 308.

The main thing about competition is to have a go and look for continual improvement. Don't get discouraged as it is a humbling sport.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3208
New South Wales

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by Vicko » 09 Sep 2019, 10:53 am

Fair call.
But the 30-06 has some fairly serious sentimental value. And its a fairly light weight stock, so ideal for stalking and medium range - not for long range or target stuff. At some point I'll take it to the range to practise on, but its not really a range rifle. I can practise with it at home out to 200m.
Vicko
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Victoria

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by TassieTiger » 09 Sep 2019, 11:31 am

Your 30-06 should happily shoot 150's to maybe 180's hunting projectiles...a 308 will shoot 150's to 165's or thereabouts....thus to my thinking, a 308 seems a strange calibre to settle on given your getting an 06 regardless.
A 260 or 270 or 6.5 will shoot 120 / 140gns quite happily to longer distances with very good BC and give you much more versatility both in the field and at the range when considered in conjunction with your 06.
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by Vicko » 09 Sep 2019, 1:15 pm

I wont be using the 30-06 in any comps though (I don't think I can even if I wanted can I??).
It is quite a light stock and I don't think will be suitable accuracy wise for longer distances.
And the 6.5 will still put me into F Open class against serious custom rigs.. I know that I'm only really 'competing against myself'. And that I'm doing this to improve my skills. But I also know I'm a competitive bastard and will want to be on a relatively even playing field...

Hmm.
Vicko
Lance Corporal
Lance Corporal
 
Posts: 116
Victoria

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 09 Sep 2019, 5:48 pm

Yep I think you will find building a custom 308 the best route in the long run. Use the club gun until you can get yourself sorted.
sungazer
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1525
Other

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Sep 2019, 6:50 pm

sungazer wrote:Yep I think you will find building a custom 6mm BR Norma the best route in the long run. .


I fixed it for you. :shock:
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3208
New South Wales

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 09 Sep 2019, 8:12 pm

This is one of the reasons that F-open can get expensive as I don't disagree with you for ranges up to 500 yrds on a calm day The 6mm cartridges show a real advantage. Then the 6.5 mm either 47 or Lap is good for the 500 to 800 yrds with a bit of weather. However after that the 7mm SAUM come out to play at the Longs 8,900 and 1000 yrds they may even be used on the shorter ranges if weather is s**t and the comp worth winning.

Now if you are Shooting F standard you know everyone is shooting a 308 and shooting 155 bullets.

So I have nothing against other calibers and again having places to shoot is the most important thing to get right first.

Also don't dismiss the 308 as a precision round there are often very few points difference over a multi-day competition between F-open and F std depending who is shooting. It is a tough gig being competitive here in Australia as we have some or a lot of the worlds top shooters competing in these local club day comps.

Also pretty much any factory or factory gun put together form parts is not really going to cut it against the Target customs in F Open. That class does attract the shooters with more money. You can get away with a re-barreled Remington 700 in the NATO F classes and compete on pretty much a level playing field other than the old blokes at the top really know how to shoot.
sungazer
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1525
Other

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by TassieTiger » 09 Sep 2019, 8:43 pm

Don’t discard the 308? The 06 held plenty of 1000 yard records for a looong time and not necessarily from heavy barrels...
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by SCJ429 » 09 Sep 2019, 9:17 pm

My thinking is that he wants to try some competition shooting with a rifle he can use for hunting. He has a 30/06 and it is easier to shoot a 6mm or 6.5. If he wants to shoot F standard he could use a 223 with 80 grain Bergers and if he wants to move up later he can. Nothing could be easier to load and shoot than the little 223.

In regards to the 6mm BR I agree that out to 600 there is nothing that has a better record. Even at 1000 yards the BR style cases have excelled holding many world records including I believe the current record one inch group shot in 2018.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3208
New South Wales

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 10 Sep 2019, 8:14 am

Only issue with the 223 is that to shoot the 80 grn bullets he would need a 1.8 twist barrel, The best you can find on factory rifles is 1.10 perhaps a 1.9 the 1.9 you could probably stabilize a 72grn. Strictly speaking there is a list of bullets that are approved for shooting its a stupid rule that will probably get changed soon but at the moment for 223 and 308 there are specified bullets that must be used.
sungazer
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1525
Other

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by TassieTiger » 10 Sep 2019, 12:46 pm

Steyr pro varmint 223 is a 1:9 and has a set trigger - boringly accurate.
Tikka .260 (Z5 5x25/52)
Steyr Pro Varmint .223 - VX 3
CZ455 .22 & Norinco .22 (vtex 4-12, bush 3-9)
ATA 686 U/O 12g & Baikal S/S 12g.
Adler a110 reddot
Sauer 30-06 - VX 3
Howa 300 win mag. SHV 5-20/56
Marlin SBL 45/70
TassieTiger
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3704
Tasmania

Re: Hunting - Targetting crossover rifle

Post by sungazer » 10 Sep 2019, 1:09 pm

Yes but its not a 1.8 which is needed to shoot the Berger 80 80.5 or 82 grn Target bullets. A 1.7 twist is also used by some target shooters.
The factory 223s are further gap between factory and target than what a factory and target 308 if you understand what I mean.

https://www.q-store.com.au/shop/categor ... -22-cal-51
sungazer
Sergeant Major
Sergeant Major
 
Posts: 1525
Other

Next

Back to top
 
Return to Target shooting - Competitive shooting - Shooting ranges