rimfire or centrefire for 1st target gun.

[SAnewb85]

hi all,
Looking into a first target rifle, considering a .22/.223/6-6.5 creed.

The thing that is swaying me away from a .22 is the cost.
For the price of a really nice CZ 457 .22 in a mdt acc with a custom barrel ($2500-3k) I could get a howa 6.5cm also in a mdt acc.

Any suggestions? Info? Opinions? Experience?

Short term goal is to shoot tight groups on paper with the end goal being ringing 1000yd steel gongs.

**first gun**


Cheers

[deye243]

The answer to your question is in what Target discipline you want to shoot you obviously won't be shooting a thousand yard F class mach with a Rimfire

[boingk]

Haven't heard a lot of good things about some of the MDT's mate. I'd be looking at what the guys at the range are using. Not the flashy ones who bang off rounds through a tactical-hyper-extreme mk11tyBillion while wearing a baseball cap and wraparound sunnies... but the guy who shoots a basic looking rifle and pinholes the damn thing everytime.

Find out what discipline you want to do and go from there. If I was after an accurate range rifle then I'd go 223 - its cheap, its plentiful and honestly I could care less about 1000yd events... although it'll still reach out plenty far. Anything over about 300m doesn't apply in 99% of real life situations.

Honestly I'd get something utterly retarded. Example - I have a Marlin levergun in 45-70 that shoots well sub MOA with handloads... so under 6" at 600m if I do my part although realistically its a bit more. Thats the critical bit though, making sure you have a rig that you are comfortable shooting. I can use that Marlin all day and be happy. Not so much the target barreled 223 I just sold. Nice gun, just didn't work for me.

Ring steel at range with something different and you'll definitely get satisfaction.

- boingk

EDIT: Saw your edit. If its your first rifle get a 223 or 308. They are ubiquitous and just work. Steel at 1000m is just an idea until you get used to shooting at 100m, then 200, then further. Look at the Ruger American range - they are solid rifles with a decentish factory trigger. The rest of the rifle is pretty basic but forgivable given the price. Throw on a Leupold Rifleman in 4-12x40 and call it a day after that.

[womble]

Agreed. You need a 45-70 lever gun.
We don’t care how you justify it.

[TassieTiger]

Agreed. You need a 45-70 lever gun.
We don’t care how you justify it.

Lol. You seriously put a smile on my face.

I’m going against the grain - if it’s your first ever rifle, buy a .22 and learn some basics. Centrefires are expensive to run and a rim fire will let you test the waters on the chesp and see if you like shooting. I doubt any serious shooter has a safe without at least one x .22 in it.

[straightshooter]

I agree with TassieTiger that a rimfire likely is the best starting point.
Now the first things to evaluate are readiness of access to appropriate shooting ranges and costs.
Forget about "wanker" target rifles that gun shops foist onto the gullible and start with the real thing.
If you start out on the rimfire route there are plenty of quality smallbore competition rifles around in the $1k to $2k range that need only a scope and rest and will always out perform any tarted up hunting rifle irrespective of what you may have been led to believe.
Having developed the necessary skills you can then proceed to whatever your end goal is.
Keyboard skills contribute nothing to actual shooting ability, which only comes from practice.

[SCJ429]

There are excellent options for competition shooting for the novice shooting a rimfire, from positional shooting to long range Benchrest. Get a Feinwerkbau, Walther or Anschutz rifle and some Eley ammunition and you are away. Have a look at the Anschutz in the link.

If you want to start in centrefire, you will do better with a 223 than anything else. You will need to reload to get the most out of your rifle.

https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=176781

[Jarhead]

Hi SAnewb85,



Recommend one of two ways.

2 step approach:

Step 1 get a used .22- go cheap. like this: https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=179497
Get started and make some paper holes at 50m to learn the fundamentals and build your gear- moa or milrad, bipod and rear bag, windage and elevation, ballistic tables/app etc. Once you get a 2nd rifle this one will likely be a safe queen so don't spend alot on it. Get accessories- bipod, rear bag, sling etc. that you can transfer from rimfire to centre fire.

Step 2 get a centrefire. Zero at 100m and then work your way out to 1000m.

The main benefit with this approach is you learn the fundamentals and make off target mistakes at 9 cents per 22LR shot, instead of $2.50 per centrefire shot. And you can sell the 22 to get those dollars back, or keep it in the safe awaiting the bunny apocalypse.

1 step approach:

Just start with the centrefire. You can punch some really small groups at 100m from day 1 with a centrefire, and when you get to consistent sub MOA groups you are ready to start shooting longer distances.


Recommendation for the centerfire is a 6.5CM. Ringing 1000m gongs is what this calibre was made for. And it is popular enough now that you will not have trouble getting ammo, accessories, etc. . Make sure you get a 20 MOA rail to get the reach you need past 700m with most scopes without having to hold over (i.e crosshairs stay on the target instead of aiming above the target). Max zoom should be at least 24x. Spend as much on optics as you do on the rifle.

Most importantly, let us know what you do and how it works out. There will be a shooter 5 years from now reading this who has to make the same call. They would appreciate being able to learn from your experience!

[SAnewb85]

Hi SAnewb85,



Recommend one of two ways.

2 step approach:

Step 1 get a used .22- go cheap. like this: https://www.usedguns.com.au/Product.aspx?p=179497
Get started and make some paper holes at 50m to learn the fundamentals and build your gear- moa or milrad, bipod and rear bag, windage and elevation, ballistic tables/app etc. Once you get a 2nd rifle this one will likely be a safe queen so don't spend alot on it. Get accessories- bipod, rear bag, sling etc. that you can transfer from rimfire to centre fire.

Step 2 get a centrefire. Zero at 100m and then work your way out to 1000m.

The main benefit with this approach is you learn the fundamentals and make off target mistakes at 9 cents per 22LR shot, instead of $2.50 per centrefire shot. And you can sell the 22 to get those dollars back, or keep it in the safe awaiting the bunny apocalypse.

1 step approach:

Just start with the centrefire. You can punch some really small groups at 100m from day 1 with a centrefire, and when you get to consistent sub MOA groups you are ready to start shooting longer distances.


Recommendation for the centerfire is a 6.5CM. Ringing 1000m gongs is what this calibre was made for. And it is popular enough now that you will not have trouble getting ammo, accessories, etc. . Make sure you get a 20 MOA rail to get the reach you need past 700m with most scopes without having to hold over (i.e crosshairs stay on the target instead of aiming above the target). Max zoom should be at least 24x. Spend as much on optics as you do on the rifle.

Most importantly, let us know what you do and how it works out. There will be a shooter 5 years from now reading this who has to make the same call. They would appreciate being able to learn from your experience!

Cheers mate.

These 2 steps are exactly where my head is at right now.
Eventually I'll end up with both and will be proficient with both, im just looking at the $$ side of it in the the short term.
Can i justify more $$ on a .22 than on the 6.5 or similar.

Its not that I don't have the money, its more the value per $ equation.

As an aside to one of the responses above- I already know I love shooting, did a lot of handgun work in my early 20s, wife at the time hated guns so I stupidly gave away my license.
15 years later, here I am getting into rifles and me being me, I know that I'm going to get into it in a big way.

As for the MDT quality issue, I have seen TT's thread about his chassis, while disappointing I haven't really seen too many other negative reviews.

Will be looking deeper as I dont want to drop 3k on a rifle and have issues. That would p!ss me off no end.

[Jarhead]

I was the same-

Surrounded by guns from age 9- hunting deer in upstate new york with a 25/06 to age 24 finishing up 8 years in the Marine Corps. I sold all my guns and moved to Australia in late 1996 - it was a bad time to get into sport shooting. I found I needed to spend over $1000 before I fired a shot. That was a shock to me. So I didn't pursue shooting. A Marine Corp reunion in Georgia in 2012 jolted me back in. 5 years of skeet followed.

I tried to buy a used 22LR cheap- it's hard - I am left handed so the market is very small. The deal fell through so I bought a new Savage MkII 22LR instead. Happy with it. I topped it with a Nikko Sterling 3-9x40 new for about $85. It's not the best quality scope but if I divide quality by price for all of the scopes I have used it wins by a long shot!

Then I got a Tikka T3 Lite 6.5 CM. OzFclass started a new sporter/hunter class and I wanted/want to get into that. COVID seems to have slowed the start but I am sure it will pick up in time.

I think a good pick for your centrefire would be a Tikka T3 TAC A1 (I have heard them called Tik-Tacs) They are right around $3k.

If you want to spend $3k including optics, I would look at getting a Tikka T3 lite or CTR and add an Athlon Ares or Argos scope. You will get good results with those.I know how great it feels to hear the steel ring 3 1/2 seconds after you pull the trigger

I am about to get an MDT LSS XL Gen2 chassis- should be here next week . I am hoping Tassie cleaned out the supply of bad ones and mine works well....You'll see how it goes on this Forum....

[SAnewb85]

Agreed. You need a 45-70 lever gun.
We don’t care how you justify it.

Won't be my first choice but I sure will be wanting a 45/70 at some stage haha

[boingk]

Recommend one of two ways.

2 step approach:

Rimfire, then....

<snip>

Recommendation for the centrefire is a 6.5CM. Ringing 1000m gongs is what this calibre was made for.

Plus to the above if you're serious about the range work.

I still have the Puma JW15 .22 I bought years ago. Its a Chinese clone of a CZ and works just fine. I can easily hit a 8" target out to 200m with it, which is far further than I'd use the thing in the field. Its not refined at all but you will learn the basics and enjoy it all the same. It cost $200 brand new about 10 years ago, they're probably still close to that and honestly I'd recommend one. You won't feel bad about dinging it or taking it out bush to pop rabbits and foxes with, and you can even learn some basic gunsmithing on it to bed the action properly and ensure the barrel is well floated.

I think a good pick for your centrefire would be a Tikka T3 TAC A1 (I have heard them called Tik-Tacs) They are right around $3k.

For the centrefire a 6.5 Creedmore will definitely get you out to 1000m. I was using a mates today... the Tikka T3X TAC A1. It was solid and satisfying to shoot with, he printed a 1/4MOA group using factory ammo on a windy day with it. Not the sort of thing I'd own (I prefer something I can easily take hunting with me) but it was certainly a nice thing to use.

- boingk

[straightshooter]

.... he printed a 1/4MOA group using factory ammo on a windy day with it....
- boingk

Can we be sure we are not seeing a little journalistic hyperbole here?

[SCJ429]

I have seen plenty of guys rock up with a Tacticool chassis rifle it some hot rod caliber, only to get blown away by a 223.

Get a nice rimfire to learn to shoot. A rimfire barrel is good for hundreds of thousands of rounds.

Shoot a 223 so you can get over 4000 rounds out of a barrel. This little round can group well at 1000, but first learn to shoot at 500. You will find 500 metres is a long way. A 6.5mm won't help you read the wind, and a barrel is only going to last 1500 rounds if you look after it.

[SAnewb85]

I have seen plenty of guys rock up with a Tacticool chassis rifle it some hot rod caliber, only to get blown away by a 223.

Get a nice rimfire to learn to shoot. A rimfire barrel is good for hundreds of thousands of rounds.

Shoot a 223 so you can get over 4000 rounds out of a barrel. This little round can group well at 1000, but first learn to shoot at 500. You will find 500 metres is a long way. A 6.5mm won't help you read the wind, and a barrel is only going to last 1500 rounds if you look after it.

The "tacticool" look isn't what interests me.
Its the adjustability and fitting the rifle to me properly
(I'm 6'4 with a 2m span from fingertip to fingertip so i want to make sure I get the fundamentals, comfort, recoil management etc right so that I can achieve what I want to achieve

[boingk]

.... he printed a 1/4MOA group using factory ammo on a windy day with it....
- boingk

Can we be sure we are not seeing a little journalistic hyperbole here?

I'd asked him how he went, we walked out there and looked at it. It was 1/4MOA group. The others not so much, but the last one he did was a pearler.

The "tacticool" look isn't what interests me.
Its the adjustability and fitting the rifle to me properly
(I'm 6'4 with a 2m span from fingertip to fingertip so i want to make sure I get the fundamentals, comfort, recoil management etc right so that I can achieve what I want to achieve

Easy. Slip on a recoil pad from pachmeyer for the extra pull length if needed.

I'm about 6'2" and similar span, no issues with any of my rifles.

[SCJ429]

[quote="SAnewb85"

The "tacticool" look isn't what interests me.
Its the adjustability and fitting the rifle to me properly
(I'm 6'4 with a 2m span from fingertip to fingertip so i want to make sure I get the fundamentals, comfort, recoil management etc right so that I can achieve what I want to achieve[/quote]

The Anschutz SuperMatch I posted has more adjustability than the MDT chassis. The ergonomics of this stock design are impressive. You will learn more about the fundamentals of shooting using this rimfire in 3P which are related to other forms of shooting. Even if you sold the rifle after a couple of years of using it, you would make your money back.

I quite like the 6.5 Creedmoor and it is a capable case design but don't get the idea that it makes 1000 metre shooting easy. It is no better than a 243 or a 260 Rem.

I bought a 223 Tikka Varmint as a practice rifle and use 80 grain Bergers for some long range plinking. This would be the most simple thing to load for and you can learn heaps for not a lot of money. I bought my Tikka for $1,000 and have fired over 4000 rounds through it.

I use a custom rifle in competition which cost $5,000 to build but the little Tikka is great to shoot and would be a good way for a novice to dip their toe in the water.