How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

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How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by effex » 17 Jun 2014, 11:59 am

Hi guys,

I'm reloading for my .308 and had my first misfire this weekend.

I think it was due to a combination of the primer being seated a little too deep and a soft hit from the firing pin.

The base of the primer was not perfectly level with the base of the case. The primer was dented but not as deeply as usual. After the misfire I waited about 1 minute and then ejected the round and put it in the empty box for the rest of the shoot.

At the end of the day I chambered it again and fired it and this time it worked fine. Did I do the right thing for handling the misfire? I didn't know how long a round can potentially still go off after when a misfire occurs?

Thanks for helping a newbie out.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Baldrick314 » 17 Jun 2014, 12:21 pm

Sounds good. It didn't go off outside the rifle which is always a good start :lol:

I've had one misfire and handled it more or less the same way. One minute should be plenty of time for it to go off
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Shotfox » 17 Jun 2014, 12:26 pm

Well handled however I would not try and fire the round again after identifying the problem as such.

Check those primer depths regularly and go easy if you are reaming the pockets to clean them.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Bourt » 17 Jun 2014, 9:56 pm

All sounds good.

It's usually seconds, not minutes for a hang-fire to go off.

30 second wait when it's happened to me a few times, never any problems.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Lorgar » 17 Jun 2014, 9:59 pm

effex wrote:The base of the primer was not perfectly level with the base of the case.


Check the rod and connections for your primer tool.

I had issues back when I started reloading because of there being a bur on one of the internal parts which made the rod sit high.

Had to not close the primer tool fully, and squeezing too hard impacted the primer up a bit. Impossible to do consistently like this...

Fixed up the primer tool though and perfecto.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Bark » 17 Jun 2014, 10:05 pm

Shotfox wrote:Well handled however I would not try and fire the round again after identifying the problem as such.


No?

I've had it happen twice to me because of firing pin being clogged with something.

Shot both rounds after no problem though.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Shotfox » 18 Jun 2014, 7:05 am

Bark wrote:
Shotfox wrote:Well handled however I would not try and fire the round again after identifying the problem as such.


No?

I've had it happen twice to me because of firing pin being clogged with something.

Shot both rounds after no problem though.


Thank you for your input Bark. Should there be a problem with re-loaded ammunition I would take the side of safety and should the problem be identified then I would check the batch of rounds reloaded before continuing. Nine times out of ten you can re fire the round but what happens in that one time of failure?
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Chronos » 18 Jun 2014, 7:52 am

Shotfox wrote:Thank you for your input Bark. Should there be a problem with re-loaded ammunition I would take the side of safety and should the problem be identified then I would check the batch of rounds reloaded before continuing. Nine times out of ten you can re fire the round but what happens in that one time of failure?


So what happens? Either there's no powder in the case and the primer fired the first time and won't fire again or the round fires as normal. I can't see why there would be a safety issue here, it's not like you anything has changed since the first attempt at firing. Of course that's not taking into account excessive head space or chambering the wrong ammo in the rifle .243 in a .308 for example.

To the op I had a problem with one rifle, firing pin strike but not firing. After checking a couple of things I asked Apollo, a very experienced reloader. He got it in one, primers were not seated deep enough and upon the firing pin strike the primers were jumping forward in the pocket resulting in a light strike.

Grabbed my hand priming tool, added a click or two to the primer seating depth and every round fired as normal.

That's the advantage (and downfall in this case) of using a precision adjustable priming tool.

As for reaming primer pockets, I ream every pocket every firing with a timer pocket uniformer. They are designed so that they don't ream deeper than is required so I wouldn't worry about the primer going too deep.

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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Shotfox » 18 Jun 2014, 8:22 am

All I'm saying Chronos is check it out thoroughly.

Misfires happen, safety first.

Ever seen a worn reamer tool?
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Bark » 18 Jun 2014, 8:38 am

Shotfox wrote:Thank you for your input Bark. Should there be a problem with re-loaded ammunition I would take the side of safety and should the problem be identified then I would check the batch of rounds reloaded before continuing. Nine times out of ten you can re fire the round but what happens in that one time of failure?


Mine was actually with factory ammo in these cases.

I'm up to 2/10 times so we'll see what happens in future :P
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by rummer » 18 Jun 2014, 8:39 am

Chronos wrote:Either there's no powder in the case and the primer fired the first time and won't fire again or the round fires as normal.


What happens when you fire a primed empty case? Curious.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Blackened » 18 Jun 2014, 8:40 am

It'll fire... a little bang/flash out the muzzle.

Not enough to launch bullet but I wouldn't want to have my hand over the muzzle when one was fired.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by rummer » 18 Jun 2014, 8:44 am

Chronos wrote:Of course that's not taking into account excessive head space or chambering the wrong ammo in the rifle .243 in a .308 for example.


Soz for jumping in with all newbie questions...

.243 is the same as .308 except for the neck right? So you could smoothly load a .243 round into a .308 without noticing and fire it?

Nothing to stop you firing it?
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Jessie » 18 Jun 2014, 8:44 am

"Nothing to stop you firing it?"

Only you buddy.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by effex » 18 Jun 2014, 8:45 am

Bourt wrote:It's usually seconds, not minutes for a hang-fire to go off.

30 second wait when it's happened to me a few times, never any problems.


Good to know.

Thanks all round.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Chronos » 18 Jun 2014, 8:55 am

Blackened wrote:It'll fire... a little bang/flash out the muzzle.

Not enough to launch bullet but I wouldn't want to have my hand over the muzzle when one was fired.



Yeah but I assume the question means a loaded round without powder and the answer is you probably won't hear the primer ignite with hearing protection on but it may or may not push the billet out of the case. A squib load with the bullet stock in the lands can be dangerous but generally the bullet won't let the next round chamber. So is not as dangerous as a half charge of powder for example where the bullet may make its way half way down the bore and stop.

Usually when one case is necked down for a wildcat the chamber is cut shorter for safety. For example a .243 will chamber and fire in a .308 (and fire) but not the other way around, same for 30-06 and .270. Imagine what would happen if you could chamber a 30-06 round in a .270 bore? Very dangerous.

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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Shotfox » 18 Jun 2014, 9:32 am

Bark wrote:
Shotfox wrote:Thank you for your input Bark. Should there be a problem with re-loaded ammunition I would take the side of safety and should the problem be identified then I would check the batch of rounds reloaded before continuing. Nine times out of ten you can re fire the round but what happens in that one time of failure?


Mine was actually with factory ammo in these cases.

I'm up to 2/10 times so we'll see what happens in future :P


Might be even more difficult to point out a problem if you dont know what went into the round in the first place. BUT good luck with roulette
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Warrigul » 18 Jun 2014, 9:44 am

Chronos wrote:
Usually when one case is necked down for a wildcat the chamber is cut shorter for safety.

Chronos


We need to show care, there is a little more to it than simple calibre variations based on one cartridge.

There is a big long list of dangerous cartridge combinations to avoid in the ammo box or cartridge bag(I have been guilty of having a stray 20ga cartridge in my jacket pocket, fortunately I picked it straight up).

16, 20 and 12 ga ammo springs straight to mind with a possibility of the smaller cartridge falling down the barrel and blocking it for any subsequent loaded 12ga round to blow the ****** out of the gun.

Any of the 308 based cartridges (.308, .243, .7/08 etc) will fit in a .30/06 based chamber(25/06, .270 spring to mind) and fire, especially if the action is mauser based and the extractor holds the cartridge head. It won't fire every time but imagine the issues you may have if a .308 was loaded into a .25/06?


There are other potentially dangerous calibre combinations out there and bit of research should bring them all to light and may be worth an independent thread even.

Our local brains trust have had a bit of a play with empty primed cases and the potential is there, enough for me to make up a warning sign.

Keep calibres seperate.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Shotfox » 18 Jun 2014, 10:14 am

Yep well said Warrigul.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Apollo » 18 Jun 2014, 10:55 am

The general practise after a "misfire" is do nothing for at least 30 seconds keeping the firearm pointed down range. After 60 seconds it should be safe to cycle the action and remove the misfired round for examination.

Misfires can happen with "factory" ammunition and very unlikely it is a problem with the actual ammunition unless somehow it has been damaged, extremely old and/or contaminated in some way like water intrusion.

Most likely misfires happen with reloaded ammunition through some reloading error.

One should always be aware of a "Hangfire" where for some reason the actual primer has fired and the powder has not ignited properly. The powder could be contaminated like with moisture and may possibly actually be burning slowly or start burning slowly then fully ignite so hence the delay in opening the action of the firearm. You certainly don't want the cartridge to ignite with the action partly or fully open. If in any doubt wait, if at a Range then ask for help from the Range Officer if you are unsure of the safety proceedures.

With a new firearm misfires can happen and there is usually a reason. One such instance I experienced was with a brand new Sako causing light firing pin strikes on primers and the cause was excessive grease in the bolt around the firing pin and spring. Where this happened is anyone's guess but once cleaned out and lightly oiled it never happened again.

Other reasons for a misfire with reloaded ammunition can generally be put down to operator error and very seldom a faulty component like a primer.

Primers seated using a reloading press or agressive force with a hand primer tool can cause the primer cup to be crushed or forced against the primer anvil thus not allowing the firing pin strike to ignite the primer substrate. The primer substrate can be cracked / damaged and again will cause it not to function irrespective of how many attempts are made to fire it.

Primers not seated far enough may or may not ignite as the firing pin will most likely just push the primer further into the primer pocket and not cause enough force to impact the primer substrate against the primer anvil to cause ignition. They will most likely show a light firing pin strike to even a normal looking strike but has damaged the primer substrate / anvil.

Thick and / or hard primers and a light firing pin strike. Perhaps from a weak firing pin spring.

The ideal tool to use seating primers is one of the hand primer tools where the seating of the primer against the bottom of the primer pocket can be felt and are less likely to cause primer cup damage but still possible with very soft primer cups like are Federal Small Rifle Primers. Whatever tool is used it should not leave a mark on the primer cup, if it does you are using too much force or perhaps the primer pocket is faulty in some way. Typically here are those that have had their primer crimped in place, usually military type ammunition, and the operator has not removed the crimp after depriming so if a new primer is being seated it will most likely damage the primer trying to get it past the crimp. There are many tools designed to remove factory primer crimps.

At no time should excessive force be used to seat a primer, there is something wrong and should be corrected.

Dirty primer pockets from the residue of previously fired primers should not generally cause any problems but for the sake of consistant seating it should be removed.

Uniform primer pocket depth is ideal and there are many tools designed to achieve this. One such tool is the K&M Primer Pocket Correction Tool and there is one for each type of primer pocket. They are indexed against the cartridge case head to cut to a specific even depth by industry standards. They do not cut or affect the sides / size of the primer pocket. Small rifle / pistol / large pistol primer pockets should be 0.122" and Large rifle primer pockets should be 0.131" in depth. Always seat a primer to touch the bottom of the primer pocket.

One practise I do priming cases is to turn them all primer upwards in my reloading block so you can check that all cases have been primed that you intend to reload and gives you a chance to visually check that all primers are seated the same and below the cartridge case head, not flush but below.

Here is what the correction tool looks like....

Image

Should you have a misfire and need to replace a failed primer then treat it with care. Disassemble the loaded round by removing the bullet and powder. Attempt to fire just the live primer even in another firearm if available but if that fails then there is little choice remaining but to either scrap the entire case safely or remove the live primer. This can be quite dangerous. Against popular belief it is not possible to "kill" a live primer easily by any number of suggested ways like soaking it in water, WD40 or any light / heavy oil. Primer substrates have some form of protective coating or foil to seal them against contamination. Hence why they are not supplied in sealed packaging. Many, many years ago they were not manufactured the same and were more likely to be contaminated.

Your choice but if you decide to remove a live primer then take extreme care. Many say they have done many without a hitch but the potential is there. My suggestion is that it is attempted outdoors, wear safety glasses and hearing protection plus heavy leather gloves (welding gloves or the like), keep you head, body and hands away from the case mouth especially. Proceed very smoothly and slowly and dispose of the damaged, live primer safely.

Not only is a misfired cartridge dangerous but all aspects of reloading can be dangerous so always think safety.

If in any doubt then consult someone with experience.

BTW.... Firing just a primer in a chambered case will sound much like firing a sub velocity rimfire cartridge. It will leave the bore coated in black soot which should be cleaned out afterwards.

Sorry for the long winded post but it is all about explaining a little more about the possible causes of a "misfire" .......

Happy reloading.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Lorgar » 18 Jun 2014, 7:21 pm

Warrigul wrote:Any of the 308 based cartridges (.308, .243, .7/08 etc) will fit in a .30/06 based chamber(25/06, .270 spring to mind) and fire, especially if the action is mauser based and the extractor holds the cartridge head. It won't fire every time but imagine the issues you may have if a .308 was loaded into a .25/06?


Between having a .243, 7mm-08 and .308 at the same time, and necking .308 brass down to 7mm I can tell you I had to really pay attention to keep things orderly.

Quite easy to mix things up when they're tip down in ammo boxes. Especially for the resized 7mm-08 brass which is stamped .308 on the bottom. I had picked up the incorrect round a few times... Always caught it fortunately.

.243 will obviously chamber smoothly in either of the larger two. And 7mm-08 in the .308.

More worrying (I've never tried this) is I suspect a lot of people wouldn't notice if they loaded a .308 cartridge into a 7mm-08 chamber. Thin neck after a few reloads maybe, if the round was seated back enough not to tough the lands or a shooter was willing to overlook a stiff bolt closure... Disaster...
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Chronos » 18 Jun 2014, 8:41 pm

Lorgar wrote:
Warrigul wrote:Any of the 308 based cartridges (.308, .243, .7/08 etc) will fit in a .30/06 based chamber(25/06, .270 spring to mind) and fire, especially if the action is mauser based and the extractor holds the cartridge head. It won't fire every time but imagine the issues you may have if a .308 was loaded into a .25/06?


Between having a .243, 7mm-08 and .308 at the same time, and necking .308 brass down to 7mm I can tell you I had to really pay attention to keep things orderly.

Quite easy to mix things up when they're tip down in ammo boxes. Especially for the resized 7mm-08 brass which is stamped .308 on the bottom. I had picked up the incorrect round a few times... Always caught it fortunately.

.243 will obviously chamber smoothly in either of the larger two. And 7mm-08 in the .308.

More worrying (I've never tried this) is I suspect a lot of people wouldn't notice if they loaded a .308 cartridge into a 7mm-08 chamber. Thin neck after a few reloads maybe, if the round was seated back enough not to tough the lands or a shooter was willing to overlook a stiff bolt closure... Disaster...


that goes back to what i was saying earlier, when a cartridge is made from another similar one IN GENERAL (that means there may be exceptions) you will not be able to chamber the larger caliber cartridge in the smaller one. yes a .243 will chamber and fire in a .308 but a .308 WILL NOT chamber in a .243, the bullet/neck dimension is larger and will jam in the lands long before the bolt closes.

Like a said manufacturers are aware of this which is why they deliberately DO NOT make the larger caliber cartridge significantly shorter than the smaller one where a parent case is shared

no one in their right mind would mistake a .308 cartridge for a .270. yes it may be possible to chamber it and even fire it (maybe) but the error should be apparent as it was in Warriguls example of the 20g in a 12g.

the real danger in my mind is when you have two calibers so close an error could be made when reloading. take the 7mm and the .270 for example. i reload for 7-08 and .284 so i have a selection of 7mm bullets here. with that in mind i would never reload for a .270 here. it might be possible to accidentally seat a 7mm bullet in a .270 case with potentially disastrous results.

sorry for being so off topic but it's something reloaders should think about.

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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Warrigul » 18 Jun 2014, 9:50 pm

Chronos wrote:that goes back to what i was saying earlier, when a cartridge is made from another similar one IN GENERAL (that means there may be exceptions) you will not be able to chamber the larger caliber cartridge in the smaller one. yes a .243 will chamber and fire in a .308 but a .308 WILL NOT chamber in a .243, the bullet/neck dimension is larger and will jam in the lands long before the bolt closes.

Like a said manufacturers are aware of this which is why they deliberately DO NOT make the larger caliber cartridge significantly shorter than the smaller one where a parent case is shared

no one in their right mind would mistake a .308 cartridge for a .270. yes it may be possible to chamber it and even fire it (maybe) but the error should be apparent as it was in Warriguls example of the 20g in a 12g.

the real danger in my mind is when you have two calibers so close an error could be made when reloading. take the 7mm and the .270 for example. i reload for 7-08 and .284 so i have a selection of 7mm bullets here. with that in mind i would never reload for a .270 here. it might be possible to accidentally seat a 7mm bullet in a .270 case with potentially disastrous results.

sorry for being so off topic but it's something reloaders should think about.

Chronos


The are no ifs buts or maybes, it does happen, I have seen an example of a totally wrong calibre loaded in a rifle and this issue is well documented as having caused blown up rifles in the past.

Don't confuse by seeding doubt unless you have something legitimate to add.
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Re: How long until a misfired cartridge is safe

Post by Farmjer » 23 Jun 2014, 6:46 pm

rummer wrote:.243 is the same as .308 except for the neck right? So you could smoothly load a .243 round into a .308 without noticing and fire it?

Nothing to stop you firing it?


Correct. The rest of the case dimensions are the same, nothing in the way from pin to primer.
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