Recoil direct effect on accuracy

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Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by grainweight » 08 Jul 2014, 12:24 pm

Hi guys,

Bit of a theoretical one here. Two parts to the questions as well...

Say you have 2 rifles that are exactly the same except for the recoil, will the heavier recoil directly effect accuracy? negatively?

Say a .223 and .338 win mag both with perfectly matched loads. If you shot both in a wind tunnel at 200m so ballistics and bucking the wind etc. didn't come into it and the .223 wasn't running out of energy, would the .338wm be less accurate because of the shock going through the rifle when fired?

I know comparing different calibres can be a bit apples and oranges, so question two... Say a .308 and a .300wm using the same bullets. Same situation as above, would the 300wm be less accurate because of the increased forced going through the rifle?
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by brett1868 » 08 Jul 2014, 9:28 pm

I doubt recoil has much effect on accuracy as you can pull sub MOA groups with virtually any calibre or weight of rifle.

I'm getting sub MOA from a .338 Lap and a .308 which are poles apart in recoil and rifle weight. I've even had a few sub MOA groups on the 50Cal using 700Gr Woodleigh brass reloads and I get similar results on my little .22 PWS T3.

Theoretically according to the laws of physics, recoil should commence the instant the projectile starts forward movement down the barrel and the rifle moves in the opposite direction of the projectile.

Rifle design such as barrel height above centreline would play some part on how you feel the recoil and account for some muzzle jump bit all this is repeatable and factored in when zeroing the rifle.

Hopefully I've shed a little light on the topic.
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by Westy » 09 Jul 2014, 7:22 am

I'm Dissing this statement ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

More recoil causes less control and less control will give you less accuracy. :o :D :o
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by brett1868 » 09 Jul 2014, 12:19 pm

Fair point and I was thinking the same way till I thought a bit more about it....I can pull sub MOA @ 100M on a .22 and a 50BMG which have vastly different amounts of recoil yet achieve the same accuracy. So long as the uncontrolability is consistent then it becomes something that can be factored into the zero.

The 16" main guns of the Missouri can fire a 1200kg projectile out to 38km with near sub MOA accuracy and the recoil from them can move the ship up to a metre sideways in the water so they certainly have some recoil yet maintain sub MOA accuracy.
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by Warrigul » 09 Jul 2014, 12:40 pm

Just a couple of musings and not proven in any way:

Taking the user out of it: If the rifles were exactly the same, the action and barrel would deform more with the larger calibre, there would also be more torque drive come from the larger calibre.

With the user: More is required to control the larger calibre and perhaps it is possible this is the reason why some of the smaller and match calibres have a reputation for accuracy? Perhaps they are just easier to shoot?

On a side note:
We did a very unscientific experiment with Small rifle, Large rifle and large rifle magnum primers and there was a difference in rifle movement between them on the vibration monitor (but not through the scope). This came after a query from a member about whether there were any benefits from Lapua Palma cases(.308 cases with a small rifle primer).

I am open to thoughts.
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by Tiiger » 10 Jul 2014, 10:36 am

Consistency is the key.

Shouldn't matter if the recoil from some canon pushes you back a metre and jumps 2 foot straight into the air.

As long as it follows the same path of recoil and jump the path the bullet takes will be the same.

The rifle does the same thing every time. It's once you stick a user behind it things become inconsistent.

Changing your grip or how the rifle is being braced could/would change how it recoils, so that would change the result.
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by SendIt » 10 Jul 2014, 10:52 am

grainweight wrote:Say a .223 and .338 win mag both with perfectly matched loads. If you shot both in a wind tunnel at 200m so ballistics and bucking the wind etc. didn't come into it and the .223 wasn't running out of energy, would the .338wm be less accurate because of the shock going through the rifle when fired?


For the sake of conversation, things should be the same in the theoretical situation above. In reality though it's not really helpful information at all.

Everything that's being excluded like maintaining velocity, energy over distance, bucking the wind etc. etc. are all focus factors in choosing the right calibre so...
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by Pilch » 10 Jul 2014, 11:00 am

Who's this idiot doing 200m target shooting with a .338 :lol:

j/k :D
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by grainweight » 10 Jul 2014, 11:01 am

SendIt wrote:In reality though it's not really helpful information at all.

Everything that's being excluded like maintaining velocity, energy over distance, bucking the wind etc. etc. are all focus factors in choosing the right calibre so...


Yeah I know.

Just a learnin' question here :)
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by Grrzrr » 11 Jul 2014, 3:07 pm

Warrigul wrote:On a side note:
We did a very unscientific experiment with Small rifle, Large rifle and large rifle magnum primers and there was a difference in rifle movement between them on the vibration monitor (but not through the scope). This came after a query from a member about whether there were any benefits from Lapua Palma cases(.308 cases with a small rifle primer).


This will probably interest you, Warrigul. If you haven't read it already.

Large vs. Small Flash Holes in .308 Win Brass

The article title is .308 Win but there is testing with Palma cases in it as well.

Read the whole thing, but the bloke doing the testing seemed to think it was a bit of a bust.
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by Warrigul » 29 Jul 2014, 12:57 pm

Grrzrr wrote:
Warrigul wrote:On a side note:
We did a very unscientific experiment with Small rifle, Large rifle and large rifle magnum primers and there was a difference in rifle movement between them on the vibration monitor (but not through the scope). This came after a query from a member about whether there were any benefits from Lapua Palma cases(.308 cases with a small rifle primer).


This will probably interest you, Warrigul. If you haven't read it already.

Large vs. Small Flash Holes in .308 Win Brass

The article title is .308 Win but there is testing with Palma cases in it as well.

Read the whole thing, but the bloke doing the testing seemed to think it was a bit of a bust.


Good article, thanks.

Those wolf primers he mentioned are the Russian PMC SRM type(THE primers to use in Lapua palma cases apparently) that were kicking around cheap a few years ago, I bought 10,000 of them for $200 a few years ago ($2 per 100) and they have been wonderful trading items since, down to my last three thousand(and apart from 1000 used in pistol ammo I have only used the for trading).
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by MeccaOz » 30 Jul 2014, 12:58 am

brett1868 wrote:Fair point and I was thinking the same way till I thought a bit more about it....I can pull sub MOA @ 100M on a .22 and a 50BMG which have vastly different amounts of recoil yet achieve the same accuracy. So long as the uncontrolability is consistent then it becomes something that can be factored into the zero.

The 16" main guns of the Missouri can fire a 1200kg projectile out to 38km with near sub MOA accuracy and the recoil from them can move the ship up to a metre sideways in the water so they certainly have some recoil yet maintain sub MOA accuracy.



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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by tom604 » 30 Jul 2014, 6:08 am

perhaps a better question would be, felt recoil and the effect on accuracy, two 308's, one with a recoil pad/limb saver, one hard steel/wood, would you flinch more with the steel butt ? or the soft and cuddly?,,i would go with the steel butt for flinching which would affect accuracy. do you have a 338 that wont shoot as good as your 223? it maybe that you haven't found the right bullet for it yet 8-)
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by Usurper » 30 Jul 2014, 10:35 am

brett1868 wrote:The 16" main guns of the Missouri can fire a 1200kg projectile out to 38km with near sub MOA accuracy


Sounds funny to say "MOA accuracy" which makes me think of 1" groups when that would work out to be shooting groups that are about 11 metres :lol:
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by Streamline » 30 Jul 2014, 10:38 am

If you could shoot 11m groups at 38km with your rifle you'd be the best shot in the world by about 100x the next guy :lol:

I wouldn't complain, ha ha.
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by nuthead » 02 Aug 2014, 3:11 am

theoretically no - recoil doesnt affect accuracy but a milder kicking gun is more forgiving of imperfect technique

a heavy gun is easier to shoot accurately than a light gun for the same reason
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by lole » 02 Aug 2014, 3:52 pm

Flinch is what gets people on the heavy recoil stuff, not the recoil itself.
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by nuthead » 03 Aug 2014, 2:50 am

Flinch is one factor but it's also the recoil itself. The recoil sequence begins before the bullet leaves the barrel. if the rifle doesn't recoil back the same way from shot to shot accuracy will suffer
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Re: Recoil direct effect on accuracy

Post by lole » 04 Aug 2014, 2:58 pm

True.

Just saying most of what goes wrong with accuracy is the guy firing the rifle.

A lot of people flinch more than they realise I reckon and blame the wrong things.
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