Where are my rounds going?

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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by Chronos » 30 Mar 2015, 3:40 pm

fenderstrat wrote:The rifle is german made, 1941 production, converted to .308.
SendIt wrote:What ammo are you using Fender?

If you can tell me the bullet weight and velocity (factory ammo? says it on the pack? - or hand load charge weight?) I could put it into a ballistics calculator based on your 3" high at 25m and tell you with reasonable accuracy where they're going at 100m.


I used PPU 150 SP stuff, nothing fancy. Doesnt say anything about velocity on the pack...

edit: found some info here: http://www.ppu-usa.com/winchester-rifle-ammunition.html
apparently its 2820 fps?

Thanks a lot everyone, I guess I'll just go back to the range and do some more shooting. Pretty happy with the way it shoots, at 50ms anyways :lol:


Are you sure its .308 and not 7.62X51?

I assume if it's been rebarreled in the states its .308 but my Israeli for example is 7.62x51 and I wont use factory .308 ammo in it.

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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by fenderstrat » 30 Mar 2015, 8:05 pm

The shop where i bought it advertised it as a .308. The rifle is marked as 7.62 NATO. I emailed the James river company and they told me i could use either with no problem.

So... how do i fix this? Taller front blade?
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by newsteadvic » 30 Mar 2015, 8:14 pm

fenderstrat wrote:So... how do i fix this? Taller front blade?

yes, if you intend to keep using that load or one close to it.

To move the line of sight UP (the shot hit ABOVE the point of aim) the REAR sight is LOWERED or the FRONT sight is RAISED.

http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/How_to_a ... iron_sight

The other (more expensive) option is to use an adjustable rear sight (like a Williams 5D) or a optical sighting option like telescopic options. Did James River drill and tap the rifle?
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by fenderstrat » 30 Mar 2015, 8:39 pm

I dont reload yet (but im definitely planning to) so I guess I'll just get a new front sight blade. too bad, the windage on this thing is spot on.
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by Chronos » 30 Mar 2015, 8:56 pm

fenderstrat wrote:I dont reload yet (but im definitely planning to) so I guess I'll just get a new front sight blade. too bad, the windage on this thing is spot on.



what are you planning to do with this gun mate?

reason i ask is if you plan on shooting it in some form of service rifle or CSD match your best bet would be to set up to reload and down load your ammo to match the sights, choose a bullet weight as heavy as you can with the twist you have

for example this may be the bullet your sight was designed for

"German cartridge variants during World War II[edit]

Karabiner 98k stripper clip with brass-cased 7.92x57mm ammunition
composite photograph of cartridge cut in half stood next to intact cartridge and base of cartridge
German 7.92 mm s.S. 12.8 g (198 gr) Full Metal Jacket Boat-Tail round.

Steel cased German s.S. ball ammunition produced in 1941.

Spitzgeschoß mit Kern, yellow bullet, red circular cap groove
The German standard s.S. (schweres Spitzgeschoß—"heavy pointed bullet") ball bullet was 35.3 mm (1.39 in) long, boat-tailed, and very well made.[19] It was lead filled, had a gilding-metal-plated jacket, and weighed 12.8 grams (197.53 gr). The s.S. ball boat tail projectile was designed for long range use and offered the best aerodynamic efficiency and external ballistic performance of any standard rifle bullet used during World War II, with a G1 ballistic coefficient between 0.593 and 0.557. When fired at the typical muzzle velocity of 760 m/s (2,493 ft/s) out of a 600 mm (23.6 in) barrel the s.S. bullet retained supersonic velocity up to and past 1,000 m"

Wiki


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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by Warrigul » 30 Mar 2015, 9:00 pm

fenderstrat wrote:I dont reload yet (but im definitely planning to) so I guess I'll just get a new front sight blade. too bad, the windage on this thing is spot on.


Try and find out where it is shooting, do it at 100m. Measure the one you have got and according to my range book .003" = 1" at 100 and this worked for me. Get one taller than you need and you can file it down.

Alternatively you can built a short one up if needed and file back.
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by greyghost » 31 Mar 2015, 6:07 pm

Chronos wrote:Karabiner 98k stripper clip with brass-cased 7.92x57mm ammunition
composite photograph of cartridge cut in half stood next to intact cartridge and base of cartridge
German 7.92 mm s.S. 12.8 g (198 gr) Full Metal Jacket Boat-Tail round.


200gr... They weren't screwing around.
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by Warrigul » 31 Mar 2015, 8:21 pm

greyghost wrote:
Chronos wrote:Karabiner 98k stripper clip with brass-cased 7.92x57mm ammunition
composite photograph of cartridge cut in half stood next to intact cartridge and base of cartridge
German 7.92 mm s.S. 12.8 g (198 gr) Full Metal Jacket Boat-Tail round.


200gr... They weren't screwing around.


They originally had a few different bullet weights and charges, they standardised a bit in the 1930's. The 198 grain round was originally meant only as a machine gun round. To get rid of so many variants they used the heavier projectile in rifles as well.

Most of my German rifles are WW! and are calibtrated for the 153 grainer, which is a far more pleasant round to fire..

As a general rule you are better to simply find a bullet you like, I would humbly suggest a 155 grain HDC Dyer, that groups well. Zero the front sight for 100 then simply find out where on the slide the other ranges are best set.

Just my humble opinions, keep it cheap and simple.
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by horter » 01 Apr 2015, 1:31 pm

greyghost wrote:200gr... They weren't screwing around.


I guess they're factoring in armor, building cover and the rest.
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by Gregg » 02 Apr 2015, 7:25 am

greyghost wrote:200gr... They weren't screwing around.


Not being flip here but it wasn't a paintball match after all.
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by fenderstrat » 30 Apr 2015, 1:06 pm

Right, so I went to the range and confirmed it, about 13-14 in high. very good groups though. Getting a new blank front sight from brownells to fix the problem, we'll see how we go. Thanks a lot for your help guys!
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by Chronos » 30 Apr 2015, 1:35 pm

fenderstrat wrote:Right, so I went to the range and confirmed it, about 13-14 in high. very good groups though. Getting a new blank front sight from brownells to fix the problem, we'll see how we go. Thanks a lot for your help guys!



Sounds like that's the best route in the long run mate,

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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by Ailee » 05 May 2015, 9:47 am

greyghost wrote:200gr... They weren't screwing around.


They tried tickling them out but it wasn't very effective :P
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by goldiexxxx » 05 Nov 2016, 7:41 pm

I thought I would reopen this thread as I need answers to the same problem.
I recently bought an Israeli 7.62 K98. Its my second one, the first was stolen maybe twenty years ago in a home robbery. The first one I scoped, and I don't remember firing it or not before the scope went on. This new rifle I am leaving as open sights (enough other hunting rifles).
I took my new K98 to the range today to try it out. I was firing some hand loads I put together specifically for this rifle. Now these hand loads were my very first attempt at reloading also (complete novice), so I have a lot of unknowns and variables I know.
I had a selection of rounds using 42, 43, and 44 gr of AR2208 powder and the tightest group was 2" / 100m with the 44gr versions. I really didn't shoot enough of either load at this point in time to make any final conclusions.
Load data as follows:
Powder - ADI AR2208
Primer - CCI
Projectile - Milsurp FMJ BT 144gr 7.62 (assuming Aust manufactured)
COL - 2.8"
Muzzle velocity - Don't know but I had a conservative guess at trying to replicate M80 Ball at about 2700 - 2800 fps.

So my problem is the same in that the rifle shoots 9.5" high at 100m using the 44gr load, but the 42gr load is about the same anyway, just my group was not quite as good. Doing a quick bit of research tonight, I have learned that a 5mm front sight is "standard", and this is what is on my rifle.
If I get a higher front sight blade, how much higher do I need to go to correct the 9.5" offset?
That is, what does say .5mm of sight = in inches at 100m?
I am hoping you clever guys with more knowledge than I can help with a starting point that I can tweak at the range.

Thanks
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by Supaduke » 06 Nov 2016, 10:00 pm

Buy the extra tall front sight from brownells and buy a small bottle of cold blue from your LGS.

Install your new front sight

Being very tall you should now be shooting low.

Shoot a round , then raise your rear ramp and repeat until you are shooting correct elevation at whatever range you can see clearly

Adjust front sight windage

Now lower your rear sight to one notch above lowest setting (or two if you want a bit more adjustment). Don't bottom out your ramp or you will leave no adjustment if you use different ammo.

Shoot , check elevation

File a tiny amount off your front sight

Shoot again , check elevation

File again..repeat file and shoot till you are zeroed at 100m

Touch up the top of your front sight with a cotton stick and cold blue

Done
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by Chronos » 06 Nov 2016, 10:10 pm

Just as I asked the OP, what do you want to do with the gun? My K98 Israeli shoots high, but on a service rifle target I get a better sight picture holding under the black area (commonly known as a 6 o'clock hold.)

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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by goldiexxxx » 07 Nov 2016, 5:46 am

Thank you for your replies.
Chronos, I intend to just use the rifle for a bit of fun at the range occasionally and I understand the benefits of using a "hold under" sight picture to better identify the POI on the target. I will take this into consideration also.

Supaduke, I looked at buying the oversized front sight also, but at the moment have ordered an original 6.4mm front sight online and will see how that goes first.
Since making my first post on this topic, I have managed to do some further research and discovered the equation used to correct open sights.

error at target X sight radius = change in front sight height
distance to target

The above calculation is all in inches including the distance to target, so use of an online length converter was handy to convert metres to inches and hundredths of inches back to millimetres. So I removed the front sight blade and measured it with calipers. I have a 5.2mm front blade and using the above equation, I need an additional 1.25mm on the front sight to correct the current error. When using 6.4mm and reversing the equation to work out the error, I get the rifle still shooting 8mm high / 100m. I can live with that, so I think the 6.4mm front sight will most likely work for me and my intended use for this rifle. still got the option of the oversized sight if I decide otherwise later.

What I don't understand is why the K98 even has 100 and 200m settings on the rear sight if its lowest zero is above these anyway. I know there are other versions of Mauser that their sights start at 300m. Having done over 20 odd years in the military, and with an understanding of how the need to remove error when under stress of battle is always a strong consideration in any military equipment design, I can not believe the IDF would knowingly leave this issue with their main battle rifle; especially since the rifles have already gone through a major refit from 8mm to 7.62 NATO anyway. When you combine the fact that the IDF has compulsory National Service, and therefore they don't get to select only the quickest thinkers from their society, it makes no sense that the rifle should be issued with a front sight that shoots so high at its battle sight position. I mean you don't win wars in just 6 days with a rifle that doesn't shoot straight!!
It makes me wonder whether once I get the rifle zeroed at 100m, whether the rear ramp sight will function correctly by incrementing the POI as designed. Maybe this will be the answer to why the rifle was issued as is, and they overcome this by a training technique??

I will be sure to post my findings from some range testing.

Cheers,
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by Supaduke » 07 Nov 2016, 6:39 am

I believe nearly all milsurp rifles shoot high, except Swedish mausers and Swiss K31/1911 ( both countries had a higher focus on marksmanship)

The training (at least in the British army) was to aim at the enemy's belt buckle. This would give you the same point of aim from 0-300m, removing the need to adjust point of aim at combat ranges.
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by Chronos » 07 Nov 2016, 6:56 am

goldiexxxx wrote:Thank you for your replies.
Chronos, I intend to just use the rifle for a bit of fun at the range occasionally and I understand the benefits of using a "hold under" sight picture to better identify the POI on the target. I will take this into consideration also.

Supaduke, I looked at buying the oversized front sight also, but at the moment have ordered an original 6.4mm front sight online and will see how that goes first.
Since making my first post on this topic, I have managed to do some further research and discovered the equation used to correct open sights.

error at target X sight radius = change in front sight height
distance to target

The above calculation is all in inches including the distance to target, so use of an online length converter was handy to convert metres to inches and hundredths of inches back to millimetres. So I removed the front sight blade and measured it with calipers. I have a 5.2mm front blade and using the above equation, I need an additional 1.25mm on the front sight to correct the current error. When using 6.4mm and reversing the equation to work out the error, I get the rifle still shooting 8mm high / 100m. I can live with that, so I think the 6.4mm front sight will most likely work for me and my intended use for this rifle. still got the option of the oversized sight if I decide otherwise later.

What I don't understand is why the K98 even has 100 and 200m settings on the rear sight if its lowest zero is above these anyway. I know there are other versions of Mauser that their sights start at 300m. Having done over 20 odd years in the military, and with an understanding of how the need to remove error when under stress of battle is always a strong consideration in any military equipment design, I can not believe the IDF would knowingly leave this issue with their main battle rifle; especially since the rifles have already gone through a major refit from 8mm to 7.62 NATO anyway. When you combine the fact that the IDF has compulsory National Service, and therefore they don't get to select only the quickest thinkers from their society, it makes no sense that the rifle should be issued with a front sight that shoots so high at its battle sight position. I mean you don't win wars in just 6 days with a rifle that doesn't shoot straight!!
It makes me wonder whether once I get the rifle zeroed at 100m, whether the rear ramp sight will function correctly by incrementing the POI as designed. Maybe this will be the answer to why the rifle was issued as is, and they overcome this by a training technique??

I will be sure to post my findings from some range testing.

Cheers,


My understanding is that when Israel originally received their K98's they remained chambered in 7.92 Mauser for many years until AMMO ran out at which point they were converted to 7.62 NATO.

Part of the conversion was to replace the original ramp with a newly calibrated one but swapping a rear sight ramp developed to suit one particular load 50 years ago may not translate to the same POI today.

The Swedes sights lowest setting is 300m which means holding off at shorter ranges where as having sights with 100 and 200 marks is more convenient at the range or hunting. As you say for a poorly trained soldier one sight setting for everything from the muzzle to 300ish makes a lot of sense and not much has changed even with the optics on modern rifles like our F88

The other thing you'll find with the sights on your rifle is the shape of the front post and the rear notch isn't that great for shooting group shots anyway. Fast acquisition and performance in differing light conditions was the order of the day

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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by goldiexxxx » 07 Nov 2016, 7:52 pm

I thought that story about the belt buckle was just BS?
If true, then that explains why I was issued WW2 style woollen battle-dress in the late '80s....issued with buttoned braces, leaving no belt buckle for the enemy to aim at. Genious! It must have given the diggers a feeling of near invincibility!
Yeah, I will stop now.
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by fenderstrat » 08 Nov 2016, 1:37 pm

Just for the record, I ended up getting a a taller front blade from another Mauser, and now its spot on at 100, as long as i keep the rear sight setting at 200. I might file it down some day but for now I'm happy!
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by bigfellascott » 08 Nov 2016, 2:08 pm

Good to hear mate.
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by Supaduke » 08 Nov 2016, 5:59 pm

For the record the lowest setting on the M38 swede and k31 Swiss is 100m
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by goldiexxxx » 17 Nov 2016, 9:14 pm

Well that didnt work out according to the equation to correct the point of impact. The new front sight blade only lowered the point of impact from 9.5" high to now 4" high at 100m. But that is probably what I should be working towards anyway so as to maintain a hold-under sight picture.
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by goldiexxxx » 17 Apr 2017, 8:11 pm

Just to complete this thread, I have had some months now shooting with the open iron sights. I can shoot groups at 100m which are equally as tight as my Ruger .308 equipped with a 3-9x scope. And a 14" round steel plate at 200m returns a horrible sounding thud with every squeeze of the trigger. You just got to love a '98 Mauser!!
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by sungazer » 19 Apr 2017, 8:50 am

Dont forget that the first shot out of a freshly cleaned cold barrel is going to shoot low. Dont pay attention to your first two shots for the day. They will typically be half to one moa low
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Re: Where are my rounds going?

Post by bladeracer » 19 Apr 2017, 3:25 pm

sungazer wrote:Dont forget that the first shot out of a freshly cleaned cold barrel is going to shoot low. Dont pay attention to your first two shots for the day. They will typically be half to one moa low


That's for accuracy testing, but for a hunting rifle remember to zero to the cold bore point of impact.

I've found that my Ruger American Rimfire will always drop the first shot of a group low if I dry fired the end of the previous mag. I haven't seen such a thing before but it's pretty consistent, if I've accidentally run dry I'll bet that next one will be low.
I haven't put enough through my brother's Annie 64 MSR yet, but so far it seems to like a sighting shot before every group, and then try to shoot the group in a consistent rhythm for best results.
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