Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

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Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Gwion » 01 Mar 2016, 8:57 pm

Hey all. Can anyone point me to any info relating to the use of military style targets?

I hear rumours that the use of 'man shaped' target are a nono. We want to use a Fig 11 or Fig 12 for a novelty ANZAC Day shoot at the club.

Thanks for any help.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by brett1868 » 01 Mar 2016, 9:44 pm

Good question, and a quick search finds no real legislation...plenty of hits on how they are not used but no explanation as to why. I suspect it could be deemed that you're "training" to kill people so to discourage that they don't allow silhouette targets of the upper torso. Might also be a literal interpretation of the word "target" in that it's defined as a ring of concentric circles aimed at for shooting practise or contests. Since our license is technically "target" (ignore the hunting endorsement in this instance) we cannot therefore aim or shoot anything not defined as a target.

Funny enough Australia produces some very lifelike human targets for "Training" and just round the corner from where I used to live in Marrickville.

Image

An update on their site today states they are being tested by the 1st Marine Division, Camp Pendleton.
http://marathon-targets.com/news/

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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by No1Mk3 » 02 Mar 2016, 2:29 am

G'day Gwion,
There is no legislative restriction, but your club/range may have restrictions. For example, no man shape targets are permitted on SSAA Vic ranges due to Green/Anti whinghing about "teaching people to kill". To reduce negative media commentary Type C targets are as close as it gets. Many SSAA ranges interstate follow a similar policy, Cheers.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Noisydad » 02 Mar 2016, 4:33 am

45kg gas bottles painted black and positioned far enough away - about 350 - 400 yards look awfully like one of the main character groups in the movie Zulu and therefore suitable for practicing and comps with Martini 577-450's and the like :-)
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Noisydad » 02 Mar 2016, 4:33 am

45kg gas bottles painted black and positioned far enough away - about 350 - 400 yards look awfully like one of the main character groups in the movie Zulu and therefore suitable for practicing and comps with Martini 577-450's and the like :-)
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Gwion » 02 Mar 2016, 7:08 am

Thanks for the responses, guys.

I had done a bit of searching and also couldn't find any legislative bans. I guess it is a tricky one, particularly seeing the club captain and secretary are keen to promote the ANZAC Day shoot and not just have it an in house event. Wouldn't want negative publicity arising just from the targets.

You'd think that because it is a one off theme day it would be ok, even iof local press come along. Just explain that it's a one day a year thing to add authenticity to the ANZAC match.

I wonder what current military targets look like.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by AusTac » 02 Mar 2016, 8:00 am

Certified part time hillbilly
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 02 Mar 2016, 8:26 am

I understand its the orgs that 'ban' the humanoid targets.... dont think there is any law controlling paper shooting, as mentioed trying to prevent any outcry in addition to the 'evilness' of the shooting activity itself. :roll: ...... I tend to believe the importation of human/humanoid paper targets are stopped at the border though (airports, bag search etc) not sure if this would be a discretionary or a stated prohibited import thing.....

You can be guaranteed the law enforcement agencies in Aus train with humanoid targets (and you could say human targets too!!) indeed the USA uses realistic photos as training targets of kids! young females! pregnant women! yup...Imagine if a mere citizen tried the same....wouldnt surprise me if the same was done in Aus, with the Feds, 'terror response' units and the intelligence services
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 02 Mar 2016, 8:41 am

US Mil training
Image
Image
Image

Headquarters, Department of the Army, Washington, DC, 10 February 2011
Rifle Marksmanship, M16-/M4-Series Weapons, FM 3-22.9, C1
Page 103, M16 target as above, with range/scaled from 50 to 300m
armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/fm3_22x9c1.pdf

(^lots of worthwhile info in there too)
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by happyhunter » 03 Mar 2016, 7:45 am

I tend to believe the importation of human/humanoid paper targets are stopped at the border though (airports, bag search etc) not sure if this would be a discretionary or a stated prohibited import thing.....


My local gun shop sells them for $5 each. They are life size targets on display for anybody who walks in to see.
SSAA frown on their use because they are pussies.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by AusC » 03 Mar 2016, 9:29 am

Gwion wrote:Just explain that it's a one day a year thing to add authenticity to the ANZAC match.


We all know how the Greens and Antis would twist it though.

Wouldn't matter what the story was, all we'd see is articles and preaching about 'human targets' and practicing to kill :roll:

One more thing the anti mob have made a big deal out of nothing over, but I understand the SSAA and others taking the safe route.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Silver87 » 03 Mar 2016, 11:58 am

If you're club is fairly tied up with SSAA I'd say they will be against it, if not it would be your clubs call. Don't be worried about what the green's and anti's think, they are offended by the mere fact you own firearm, stuff them.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Gwion » 03 Mar 2016, 12:36 pm

It's a target rifle club. Not SSAA affiliate. We were discussing the ANZAC Day shoot and the question was asked re: issues using military targets, so I said I'd look into it from legal and other angles. I'll chat with other members and exec again on Saturday.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 03 Mar 2016, 1:27 pm

Just make up some targets then.... get them printed out on 1m or 4foot paper at your local print shop, eff the pc brigade, old trusty Osama AK47 over the concentric fullbore target.....
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Gwion » 03 Mar 2016, 1:58 pm

No. They will be more traditional military targets in the spirit of ANZAC Day.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Gwion » 03 Mar 2016, 2:05 pm

Buy them cheap on Ebay.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 03 Mar 2016, 3:29 pm

There you go then :thumbsup:
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by happyhunter » 03 Mar 2016, 3:35 pm

The military started using silhouette targets because back during WW2 they found most soldiers were not aiming at anything. Using human silhouette targets helped to overcome that psychological barrier that made it difficult to shoot at another person.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 03 Mar 2016, 4:08 pm

It has been said that many of the soldier (US) serving in 'nam, were actually firing 'high' to purposefully miss..... peace love and stuff, dont kill....and all that, maybe thats why thing didnt turn out 'so well'..
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Manimal » 11 Mar 2016, 11:06 am

happyhunter wrote:The military started using silhouette targets because back during WW2 they found most soldiers were not aiming at anything. Using human silhouette targets helped to overcome that psychological barrier that made it difficult to shoot at another person.


I can't remember the exact number but it was somewhere in the order of thousands of rounds shot per kill because of soldiers deliberately missing.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Gwion » 11 Mar 2016, 12:19 pm

The club has settled on using standard targets but shooting timed exposures instead. A couple of people nervous about negative PR.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Diesel » 15 Mar 2016, 12:24 pm

Gwion wrote:It's a target rifle club. Not SSAA affiliate. We were discussing the ANZAC Day shoot and the question was asked re: issues using military targets, so I said I'd look into it from legal and other angles. I'll chat with other members and exec again on Saturday.


Most NRAA clubs still use the charging man target for .303 shoots?
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 15 Mar 2016, 1:19 pm

Do you mean this type?
Image


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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by VICHunter » 15 Mar 2016, 1:48 pm

What is that supposed to be? :unknown:
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 15 Mar 2016, 2:36 pm

VICHunter wrote:What is that supposed to be? :unknown:


I didnt really want to say....

But I suspect a 457 visa worker employed in strawberry picking :unknown:
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Gwion » 15 Mar 2016, 4:31 pm

Yeah, fig. 12 is still a go but the Pres and Sec of the club both mentioned concern on the PR side, so..... best keep everyone happy. Timed exposures is also a typical service rifle thing so it ties in.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 15 Mar 2016, 4:38 pm

still concerned?? But this is like the most PC of PC military silhouette??

(just quietly I think they're marsh mellow grade soft)

Sack them. If they wear a cardy they should go!
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Gwion » 15 Mar 2016, 4:49 pm

The above is type 2, no???

Fig 12 is charging helmeted soldier?

Anyway, we spoke about using the above target but in my view it's just a bit, well.... pointless. May as well just have a round bull and timed exposures.

Everyone keeps changing their minds so just go with what everyone can say yes to and stick with it.
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by <<Genesis93>> » 15 Mar 2016, 4:56 pm

Who cares..... at 300m I can barely make out the frame anyway :lol: may as well be a white blank mass
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Re: Using Military Targets: yes, no, maybe?

Post by Redwood » 16 Mar 2016, 10:00 am

VICHunter wrote:What is that supposed to be? :unknown:


Prone soldier? Helmet and shoulders? :unknown:
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