Reading groups

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Reading groups

Post by rsj223 » 18 Jul 2017, 8:52 pm

Thought I would post up some pictures of some groups from my .22 and see if anyone can tell me the good or bad points
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Re: Reading groups

Post by AusTac » 18 Jul 2017, 8:55 pm

What are you shooting off? Bipod/bags?

For a quality .22 feeding it the right ammo and you playing the part i'd expect nothing more than a 50c peice sized group out to 50 metres with 5 or so shots in reasonable weather
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Re: Reading groups

Post by Chronos » 18 Jul 2017, 9:19 pm

Looking at the amount of horizontal in some groups were you shooting outdoors?

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Re: Reading groups

Post by rsj223 » 18 Jul 2017, 10:07 pm

That was off rear bag and a timber front rest at SSAA Springvale indoor/outdoor kinda, the breeze was light and was hitting us in the face
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Re: Reading groups

Post by AusTac » 18 Jul 2017, 10:11 pm

Springy can get some weird wind patterns going on sometimesin that little bowl of theirs, but those groups seem pretty sporatic to me, always off to the left though, what rifle and ammo out of curiosity?
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Re: Reading groups

Post by bladeracer » 18 Jul 2017, 10:44 pm

rsj223 wrote:Thought I would post up some pictures of some groups from my .22 and see if anyone can tell me the good or bad points


Are all those targets the same way up?
That ten-shot elongated shot is your rifle telling you there is some sort of problem. Assuming it's vertical stringing I'd look at how the rifle is supported, or possibly a loose scope or action screw.

Consistency is key, same supports, same body position, same grip, same cheek weld, same position on the trigger. It's why I like to run the bolt with my left hand, so my head and firing hand don't have to move when I'm shooting a group. It's also vital that you align the entire rifle onto the target, don't set it to aim two inches away and then try to twist the rifle onto the bullseye. Let the rifle fall comfortably into the correct place and then get a nice relaxed grip on it. And constantly check cant by ensuring your crosshairs are parallel to the edges of the target frame. Cant will throw your shots low and to the sides. Make sure there is no parallax in the scope. When there is no parallax you should theoretically be able to position your eye anywhere behind the scope and the bullets will all hit the reticle. If there is parallax, moving your head will also move your bullet impacts around the reticle.

Shooting groups just looking for precision is not too difficult compared to trying to put those same groups onto a target for scoring accuracy. For that you need to maintain that consistency every time you get behind the rifle, and that takes lots of practice.
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Re: Reading groups

Post by rsj223 » 19 Jul 2017, 12:02 am

AusTac wrote:Springy can get some weird wind patterns going on sometimesin that little bowl of theirs, but those groups seem pretty sporatic to me, always off to the left though, what rifle and ammo out of curiosity?

Ruger American Target I need to better record pictures and moa with what ammo was only trying to weed out the worst ammo
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Re: Reading groups

Post by rsj223 » 19 Jul 2017, 12:07 am

All the pictures are the way they were shot, I think parallax is one of my biggest problems with the .22 but dont seem to be as bad with the .223
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Re: Reading groups

Post by Gwion » 19 Jul 2017, 5:23 am

I think a lot of that horizontal dispersion is trigger technique. T really can make a bigger difference than a lot of people think.
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Re: Reading groups

Post by southwest shooter » 19 Jul 2017, 10:07 am

Terrible , go back and start again .
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Re: Reading groups

Post by Wm.Traynor » 19 Jul 2017, 11:15 am

If parallax caused the horizontal dispersion, then it could be responsible for the vertical spread too.
But........that would be a lot of parallax :o IMO
Then again, it could be a combination of things; crosswinds and bedding for instance. There are a lot of variables to eliminate involving many trips to the range :D
bladeracer's "primer" sounds pretty good too :thumbsup:
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Re: Reading groups

Post by Gwion » 19 Jul 2017, 11:50 am

RifleTargetProblems.jpg
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Believe it or not: forgetting about all else and concentrating on trigger technique can make a HUGE difference to your shooting. Here are some vids for you to check out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIwokYOdpag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9VTMzCiZtE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSPAxItV0TY

The top link is by far the most "informative" :lol: ;)
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Re: Reading groups

Post by Strikey » 19 Jul 2017, 5:02 pm

If its a typical finicky rimfire I'm wondering how many shots did you fire of each different ammo before trying to shoot a group or if you cleaned between trying different ammo types? I have found that rimrire ammo will shoot better once the barrel is fouled up with its own lube, never try to test ammo just shooting "over " the previous ammo fired, same with cleaning in between groups, the next lot of ammo will need to foul the barrel before you judge if its any good for that rifle :thumbsup
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Re: Reading groups

Post by bladeracer » 19 Jul 2017, 7:04 pm

Strikey wrote:If its a typical finicky rimfire I'm wondering how many shots did you fire of each different ammo before trying to shoot a group or if you cleaned between trying different ammo types? I have found that rimrire ammo will shoot better once the barrel is fouled up with its own lube, never try to test ammo just shooting "over " the previous ammo fired, same with cleaning in between groups, the next lot of ammo will need to foul the barrel before you judge if its any good for that rifle :thumbsup


I have seen some .22LR ammo improve after a one or two foulers that go askew, but I haven't seen it improve much after that. The more groups you shoot you will invariably see the average tighten up slightly, but even after a hundred or more you'll still see some groups larger than the first one you shot. Mostly though I've found that the first group from a different type will generally group just as well as the fifth, or tenth without cleaning the previous fouling from the bore. I can shoot dozens of groups mixing up the stuff I have heaps of (CCI SV, Eley Edge, CCI Velocitor, Highland RX HP, Eley Sport, Eley Subsonic, SK Magazine, Remington Cyclone, Federal Standard, Remington Golden Bullet, etc) and see no measurable difference from when I just shoot a bunch of groups with one type.

I also don't see any value in cleaning between types as it will generally shoot very differently between a clean and dirty bore anyway. The theoretical ideal is for the bore to be identical for every shot, but that's neither practical or possible. For a pure target rifle (of which I have zero experience) there might be some value in always shooting from a clean bore, and thus, testing a variety of ammo to find one that prefers a clean bore. But for a hunting or plinking rifle, find an ammo that shoots well from a dirty bore and you won't need to clean it until you've puts hundreds and hundreds of rounds through it. My Ruger Target seems to want cleaning roughly around the 1000rd mark. My Compact is still shooting very well after 1500rds since cleaning, but I'm leaning toward cleaning it now to see if accuracy does improve.

I recommend you just shoot a few groups of everything you can find to whittle it down to those few that show promise. Then shoot those a lot more. Eventually you'll find the small handful that offer you optimum accuracy to suit your requirements. The stuff I've shot that was terrible is still terrible every time I try it. I have no fears it will suddenly shoot well after cleaning the bore, or after putting 500rds of it through the tube one after the other. One thing I've found particularly interesting is that my two Rugers are the same rifles except for the barrel profiles (same actions, triggers, chassis, barrel lengths, scopes, mags, etc) and yet almost everything I've tested shoots similarly in both. Only a handful have shown a distinct preference to shoot better in one rifle than the other. I think this is just luck though as I have read of other owners that get both, similar results, and also vastly different results in their Rugers. I received six more types today for testing.

I think the vast majority of .22LR owners never even bother testing ammo. They just grab whatever they like the look of when they pick up their new rifle and that's all they ever shoot, until a time comes when they can't get it so they grab something else. They still get lots of enjoyment out of their four of five MoA rifle though.
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Re: Reading groups

Post by bladeracer » 19 Jul 2017, 7:10 pm

Gwion wrote:
RifleTargetProblems.jpg


That's a great reference Gwion, one that should be printed and put on the wall methinks :-)
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Re: Reading groups

Post by rsj223 » 19 Jul 2017, 8:58 pm

sungazer wrote:Did you have the stock on the rest or the barrel? Where you just using the bar that runs in front at the range or a proper rest?

Always on the stock, I did use there v-shaped padded front stand and my rear caldwell bag.
I still think it needs a few hundred rounds to see how it settles, I dont clean it but will do after a few more shots(patched clean before I shot it).
Waiting on the answer back from Ruger on the action screws torque as the owners manual seems to be generic and could be different for the timber?
Blade what did you set your action screws after the swap.
I'm not complaining about the rifle its very smooth just concerned that by changing the action screws may have caused this type of pattern.
Look at the Eley sport that just looks so wrong and I've not shot that before that I can remember
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Re: Reading groups

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jul 2017, 3:05 am

rsj223 wrote:Always on the stock, I did use there v-shaped padded front stand and my rear caldwell bag.
I still think it needs a few hundred rounds to see how it settles, I dont clean it but will do after a few more shots(patched clean before I shot it).
Waiting on the answer back from Ruger on the action screws torque as the owners manual seems to be generic and could be different for the timber?
Blade what did you set your action screws after the swap.
I'm not complaining about the rifle its very smooth just concerned that by changing the action screws may have caused this type of pattern.
Look at the Eley sport that just looks so wrong and I've not shot that before that I can remember


In the MDT chassis they specify 65in/lbs which is way too much for a poly or wooden stock.
The lami Target stock is pillar bedded so I would expect the torque to be the same as the ploy stocks.
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Re: Reading groups

Post by Gwion » 20 Jul 2017, 6:41 am

bladeracer wrote:
Gwion wrote:
RifleTargetProblems.jpg


That's a great reference Gwion, one that should be printed and put on the wall methinks :-)


Yeah. Someone posted it on another forum years ago and i found it very helpful. Of course i had lost the link but a quick google search returned the goods.

Strikey has a very good point, re: allowing a new batch to foul the barrel. I tend to allow an entire box of ammo for testing. I shoot about 20 to foul and then at least 4 groups of 5 to test. I also test in manufacturer batches as my theory is that most manufacturers would be using the same lube on different brands but then, who knows!?!

I used to dry patch between brands and then foul with a full 10 round mag but i got lazy and just shoot more rounds through now.

Still, those groups are showing some fairly consistent variation of stringing right to left. To me, that screams technique issues.
I don't think it is bedding because the groups would generally be far more random but you know me, if you question the bedding: bed it! :lol:

Also test your action torque. Use the Velocitors, as they look the best from the groups above. First, thoroughly foul the barrel with what ever brand you are going to use. Start with both screws at 10 inch pounds ("lb), fire a group of 10. Increase the front screw by 5"lb, another group of 10. Increase the rear screw by 5"lb and another group of 10... and so on until both are at 25"lb. I would NOT go any higher than this on a rimfire. The continue by loosening the front screw by 5"lb, a group of ten. The loosen the rear, a group of 10... and so on. Mark you targets clearly in advance and stick with the order. If you mark them after the fact you may forget which is which and then your data is useless.

This gives you a print out of how the rifle reacts with torque even on bother screws, torque higher on the front and torque higher on the back, all the way through the range. Now. Pick which ever one works best; i usually find it is somewhere around 15"lb rear and 20"lb front; and then tweak the torque up and down by a couple of inch pounds on each screw, shooting groups in between. Seems like a lot of work, and it is but then you get to shoot about 200 rounds once you go through the process and shoot another bunch of groups to confirm and shooting is fun! :D

One of my 22 likes it around 13"lb rear and 17"lb front while the other likes it more like 15 rear and 22 front. My Sportco went from 50yd groups well over an inch to groups well under an inch through this process. While you do it, concentrate on your technique. It doesn't matter if you are doing something wrong, as long as you are doing it wrong consistently for accurate data.

You can also go through similar processes for technique training. Shoot 10 shot groups with different finger positions. 10 shot groups with slightly different hand positions.... and so on. Every thing must be done exactly the same for every round of a group. Forget about wind, the new gun you want or what your significant other wants you to do when you get home; just concentrate for one shot, ten times in a row. Have a little break and try something else but do it THE SAME for ten shots in a row.....

Anyway, good luck with it. After all that, I might have to get my own 22 out and plug some targets for practice today (weather permitting)!!!
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Re: Reading groups

Post by rsj223 » 20 Jul 2017, 8:11 am

When I get some time I will test the torque settings, Ruger book says 35in lb
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Re: Reading groups

Post by Gwion » 20 Jul 2017, 8:52 am

rsj223 wrote:When I get some time I will test the torque settings, Ruger book says 35in lb


Sounds like a hell of a lot for a rim fire but if that's what it says then test all the way up to 35in/lb... even more bang bang! :D :clap: :friends:
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Re: Reading groups

Post by rsj223 » 20 Jul 2017, 7:11 pm

Whats the thoughts on making clamp type rest/stand to fix the rifle into position and tested to see how far out I or it is?
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Re: Reading groups

Post by bladeracer » 20 Jul 2017, 8:09 pm

rsj223 wrote:Whats the thoughts on making clamp type rest/stand to fix the rifle into position and tested to see how far out I or it is?



When I was trying to get Bob's old .22 to shoot I resorted to putting the action in a vice. Didn't improve the groups at all though.
I'd suggest having somebody else that shoots consistently well have a go with it. He may even be able to pinpoint the problem if there is one.
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Re: Reading groups

Post by Gwion » 21 Jul 2017, 8:37 am

rsj223 wrote:Whats the thoughts on making clamp type rest/stand to fix the rifle into position and tested to see how far out I or it is?


Won't give you a real idea of how it shoots because the rifle is not able to recoil at all. Yes, i know it's only a 22lr but still...
Also won't help you to learn to shoot better.
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Re: Reading groups

Post by rsj223 » 21 Jul 2017, 8:55 am

I seem to have more trouble with the .22
This is the best group I ever got with my .308 bags on the ground
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Re: Reading groups

Post by Gwion » 21 Jul 2017, 9:54 am

That's pretty good, mate. Just need to be able to do it consistently.

22lr are finicky. Maybe you are just taking a more casual approach to shooting the 22 because it's "just a 22" but you take it more seriously when shooting your 308win?
Look, i'm sure there is more to do with the rifle in finding the load it likes and tuning the torque, etc but it really looks that technique is contributing to the group variation. Maybe just pick a round and shoot a brick of it (not all at once), concentrating on your technique and see how the groups improve after that?

Just throwing out ideas. Cheers.
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Re: Reading groups

Post by rsj223 » 21 Jul 2017, 7:47 pm

Gwion wrote:That's pretty good, mate. Just need to be able to do it consistently.

22lr are finicky. Maybe you are just taking a more casual approach to shooting the 22 because it's "just a 22" but you take it more seriously when shooting your 308win?
Look, i'm sure there is more to do with the rifle in finding the load it likes and tuning the torque, etc but it really looks that technique is contributing to the group variation. Maybe just pick a round and shoot a brick of it (not all at once), concentrating on your technique and see how the groups improve after that?

Just throwing out ideas. Cheers.

Yeah all good I was thinking about I how treat the .22 as a "no big deal" but I think I do better with the .308 has taken me a wile to get my .223 group size down now just need to nail this 22 :lol:
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